EK augmented crewing
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EK augmented crewing
Any thoughts on the latest FCI concerning the new, longhaul augmented crewing policy? Is it likely to succeed and if so what are the probable implications of this recently introduced practice? Is it really going to solve a perceived problem or is it more than likely to create a number of further issues?
"Why can't Emirates do what other sensible airlines do and have been doing for many years succesfully??"
Sorry mate, we gotta do it our way, we know best, no one else does it properly.
Sorry mate, we gotta do it our way, we know best, no one else does it properly.
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 26th Aug 2004 at 11:14.
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Laptops are not the issue here, or are they? My advice is to get one anyway, then do all of your IT stuff either on the flightdeck or in the hotel and then spend valuable time with the family instead of checking emails and net surfing when you get home. After all, that valuable family time is getting shorter and shorter! 
But be careful you don't recharge them on the flightdeck, there's always a teachers pet about!
Going back to the original post, the FCI is now going to followed up with one that explains things more clearly. Can't see what is not clear about the fact that we are going to work harder than ever!
P.S. 145qrh, you should log out as 4holerpoler before you edit your messages! Gotcha!!
Nope, wrong - 145 had some inflammatory content in his post & I edited it out. Don't like doing it but it keeps the peace. 4HP
But be careful you don't recharge them on the flightdeck, there's always a teachers pet about!
Going back to the original post, the FCI is now going to followed up with one that explains things more clearly. Can't see what is not clear about the fact that we are going to work harder than ever!
P.S. 145qrh, you should log out as 4holerpoler before you edit your messages! Gotcha!!
Nope, wrong - 145 had some inflammatory content in his post & I edited it out. Don't like doing it but it keeps the peace. 4HP
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 27th Aug 2004 at 21:00.
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On this particular isssue Emirates and the GCAA are correct. It is not legal to log all hours on the augmented crew as "flight time". It is however "Duty time" regardless of where you are on the airplane. For the moment they are keeping the pay untouched. If this remains then I have no problem with this, as it is the same practice the UK CAA and the airlines under it use
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Thank you all for your thoughts on the issue.
Whilst I am not specifically au fait with Emirates and GCAA policy relating to this matter, on the basis that the UAE is on course for JAR compliance, I quote the following UK CAA requirements on the issue.
UK SRG FODCOM 24/2002 (Flight Operations Department Communication) on recording of flight times states the following:
RECORDING OF FLIGHT TIMES
2.1 This subject refers to the recording of flight time for Flight Crew Licensing purposes only. Flight time recorded in order to comply with Article 72(3) of the Air Navigation Order 2000 (ANO) shall continue to be recorded in accordance with the operator’s approved Flight Time Limitation Scheme and Article 72(a) of the ANO.
2.2 Introduction
2.2.1 There appears to be some confusion over the recording of flight times when an aircraft crew consists of more than the required number of pilots i.e. a ‘heavy’ crew.
2.2.2 The rules on logging of flight time are laid down in JAR-FCL 1.080, but for clarification the following should apply.
2.3 Pilot in Command
2.3.1 The designated commander of the aeroplane may log as pilot in command all the flight time. This includes rest taken on board.
2.4 Co-Pilot
2.4.1 The designated co-pilot of the aeroplane may log as co-pilot all the time he acts as co-pilot whilst sitting in a pilot’s seat.
2.4.2 He may log as Pilot In Command Under Supervision (PICUS) all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot in command under the supervision of the pilot in command or a cruise relief pilot substituting for the pilot in command.
2.4.3 He may also log as pilot in command all the time he is acting as pilot in command and substituting for the designated commander of the aircraft when he is taking rest.
2.4.4 He may not log as flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.
2.5 Cruise Relief Pilot
2.5.1 A cruise relief pilot may log as pilot in command all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat as relief for the designated commander.
2.5.2 He may log as co-pilot all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat as relief for the co-pilot.
2.5.3 He may log as PICUS all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot in command under the supervision of the designated commander or his relief.
2.5.4 He may not log as flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.
This all makes sense when considering the recording of flight time for licensing purposes. If you are not the designated a/c Commander for the flight and have not been at the controls of the a/c for a portion of that flight, then obviously you cannot log that flight time as part of your total flying experience. However, as paragraph 2.1 above states: “This subject refers to the recording of flight time for Flight Crew Licensing purposes only. Flight time recorded in order to comply with Article 72(3) of the Air Navigation Order 2000 (ANO) shall continue to be recorded in accordance with the operator’s approved Flight Time Limitation Scheme and Article 72(a) of the ANO.”
Within the ANO Article 72 comes under the section of FATIGUE OF CREW AND PROTECTION OF CREW FROM COSMIC RADIATION.
Fatigue of crew - operator's responsibilities
72 - (1) The operator of an aircraft to which this article applies shall not cause or permit that aircraft to make a flight unless:
(a) he has established a scheme for the regulation of flight times for every person flying in that aircraft as a member of its crew;
So basically article 72(a) refers to the requirement for an FTL scheme to be in force, in effect the equivalent of a CAP371 document, which I believe Emirates tend to broadly follow. This statement therefore indicates that whilst only time at the controls can be logged for licensing purposes, all time spent on an a/c as part of the operating crew must be considered when considering the avoidance of fatigue of crew, i.e. follow the requirements of CAP371.
EK and the GCAA may follow a variation of CAP371, however the new augmented crewing policy does not appear to follow the spirit of the regulations.
Any further thoughts anyone?
Whilst I am not specifically au fait with Emirates and GCAA policy relating to this matter, on the basis that the UAE is on course for JAR compliance, I quote the following UK CAA requirements on the issue.
UK SRG FODCOM 24/2002 (Flight Operations Department Communication) on recording of flight times states the following:
RECORDING OF FLIGHT TIMES
2.1 This subject refers to the recording of flight time for Flight Crew Licensing purposes only. Flight time recorded in order to comply with Article 72(3) of the Air Navigation Order 2000 (ANO) shall continue to be recorded in accordance with the operator’s approved Flight Time Limitation Scheme and Article 72(a) of the ANO.
2.2 Introduction
2.2.1 There appears to be some confusion over the recording of flight times when an aircraft crew consists of more than the required number of pilots i.e. a ‘heavy’ crew.
2.2.2 The rules on logging of flight time are laid down in JAR-FCL 1.080, but for clarification the following should apply.
2.3 Pilot in Command
2.3.1 The designated commander of the aeroplane may log as pilot in command all the flight time. This includes rest taken on board.
2.4 Co-Pilot
2.4.1 The designated co-pilot of the aeroplane may log as co-pilot all the time he acts as co-pilot whilst sitting in a pilot’s seat.
2.4.2 He may log as Pilot In Command Under Supervision (PICUS) all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot in command under the supervision of the pilot in command or a cruise relief pilot substituting for the pilot in command.
2.4.3 He may also log as pilot in command all the time he is acting as pilot in command and substituting for the designated commander of the aircraft when he is taking rest.
2.4.4 He may not log as flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.
2.5 Cruise Relief Pilot
2.5.1 A cruise relief pilot may log as pilot in command all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat as relief for the designated commander.
2.5.2 He may log as co-pilot all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat as relief for the co-pilot.
2.5.3 He may log as PICUS all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot in command under the supervision of the designated commander or his relief.
2.5.4 He may not log as flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.
This all makes sense when considering the recording of flight time for licensing purposes. If you are not the designated a/c Commander for the flight and have not been at the controls of the a/c for a portion of that flight, then obviously you cannot log that flight time as part of your total flying experience. However, as paragraph 2.1 above states: “This subject refers to the recording of flight time for Flight Crew Licensing purposes only. Flight time recorded in order to comply with Article 72(3) of the Air Navigation Order 2000 (ANO) shall continue to be recorded in accordance with the operator’s approved Flight Time Limitation Scheme and Article 72(a) of the ANO.”
Within the ANO Article 72 comes under the section of FATIGUE OF CREW AND PROTECTION OF CREW FROM COSMIC RADIATION.
Fatigue of crew - operator's responsibilities
72 - (1) The operator of an aircraft to which this article applies shall not cause or permit that aircraft to make a flight unless:
(a) he has established a scheme for the regulation of flight times for every person flying in that aircraft as a member of its crew;
So basically article 72(a) refers to the requirement for an FTL scheme to be in force, in effect the equivalent of a CAP371 document, which I believe Emirates tend to broadly follow. This statement therefore indicates that whilst only time at the controls can be logged for licensing purposes, all time spent on an a/c as part of the operating crew must be considered when considering the avoidance of fatigue of crew, i.e. follow the requirements of CAP371.
EK and the GCAA may follow a variation of CAP371, however the new augmented crewing policy does not appear to follow the spirit of the regulations.
Any further thoughts anyone?
G'day folks,,as I thought. PIC must log all the flight time, the rest of the crew only log time they are occupying seat 0A or 0B ,which seems fair.
Quite why EK have to mess with simple rules is beyond me mate.
I think I will be logging the times as per the rules above.How EK count it is up to them. It does mean however that Capt's will be doing more than 100 in 28 , and quite legally according to FC113.
Anyone know how the FAA or Quantas do it, maybe EK are following the states or Oz???
4HP , chill man ,winding up the antipodeans is good sport . ...... ooopps
Quite why EK have to mess with simple rules is beyond me mate.
I think I will be logging the times as per the rules above.How EK count it is up to them. It does mean however that Capt's will be doing more than 100 in 28 , and quite legally according to FC113.
Anyone know how the FAA or Quantas do it, maybe EK are following the states or Oz???
4HP , chill man ,winding up the antipodeans is good sport . ...... ooopps
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Correct me if I'm wrong,
but the latest FCI means that an A340 driver, operating in 4 man crews, can be scheduled to fly up to 150 hours a months without busting the 100hrs rule and up to 133 hours on a 3 pilot crew.
Same goes for 777 guys of course, except that they don't do as much augmented stuff (yet!!!).
Is that another red hot poker i feel up my ar*e.
I think I'll take this to the grievance department.
but the latest FCI means that an A340 driver, operating in 4 man crews, can be scheduled to fly up to 150 hours a months without busting the 100hrs rule and up to 133 hours on a 3 pilot crew.
Same goes for 777 guys of course, except that they don't do as much augmented stuff (yet!!!).
Is that another red hot poker i feel up my ar*e.
I think I'll take this to the grievance department.
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So, the nominated First Officer will continue to log all the flight time in his personal flying logbook irrespective of whether he is in the operating seat or not. If he is lucky enough to be rostered as the nominated First Officer on a series of 4 pilot sectors he could in theory operate up to 150 hrs in 28 days.
In effect, for the purpose of licensing, promotion, command, etc, he could be logging up to double the "real hours" that he has actually operated. 75 hours or so in the seat, yet 150 hrs in the logbook. That could be up to 1350 a year! Interesting concept, lots of extra "free" flying time and credit time to boot. A double bonus and no doubt welcome by some more than others.
In effect, for the purpose of licensing, promotion, command, etc, he could be logging up to double the "real hours" that he has actually operated. 75 hours or so in the seat, yet 150 hrs in the logbook. That could be up to 1350 a year! Interesting concept, lots of extra "free" flying time and credit time to boot. A double bonus and no doubt welcome by some more than others.
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Credible
That's not exactly as i see it.
I interpret it as being that you will put the same amount of hours in your log book as we always have, it is just that only 3/4 or 2/3 of the augmented hours will go towards your 100 hours per 28 days limitation.
So, it is possible that you could log 150 hours in your log book, but only have flown 100 hours as far as the GCAA is concerned in regard to the 100 hours in 28.
That's not exactly as i see it.
I interpret it as being that you will put the same amount of hours in your log book as we always have, it is just that only 3/4 or 2/3 of the augmented hours will go towards your 100 hours per 28 days limitation.
So, it is possible that you could log 150 hours in your log book, but only have flown 100 hours as far as the GCAA is concerned in regard to the 100 hours in 28.
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"...The relief pilot will only log that portion of the flight where he is sitting in an operating seat..."
Credible was correct the first time. The interesting part of this policy is that non-ATPL pilots cannot be "relief" pilots. Therefore, they are able, under these new rules, to log 100% of the flight while the more experienced ATPL pilot is stuck with relief duties.
Credible was correct the first time. The interesting part of this policy is that non-ATPL pilots cannot be "relief" pilots. Therefore, they are able, under these new rules, to log 100% of the flight while the more experienced ATPL pilot is stuck with relief duties.
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I wish I could have built up my hours so quickly & easily when I was struggling for my ATPL (and get productivity pay for it too). Thirty hours in the logbook for two days "work" would have been great.
