Dubai departures/delays
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Dubai departures/delays
Couple of days ago we stood at the holding point (B190) for over 35 minutes. Being number 8 in sequence because the APP ATCO wanted only jets departing behind each other (understandable but even at EGLL they'll managed to handle turboprops in between).
Isn't there a possibility you guys assign us a lower intitial altitude on departure maintaining own terrain separation and give us stepped climbs instead of having us burn fuel on the ground.
Or inform us so we can decide if we want to taxi out or just start up one engine for the airconditioning instead of 2.
Coastrider26
Isn't there a possibility you guys assign us a lower intitial altitude on departure maintaining own terrain separation and give us stepped climbs instead of having us burn fuel on the ground.
Or inform us so we can decide if we want to taxi out or just start up one engine for the airconditioning instead of 2.
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I totally agree stuff like that is unacceptable.. All the controller had to do is release you for take off and a turn 30 degrees off centreline to permit faster jet climbing behind. They don't understand the concept of initial separation.. this comes from a mate of mine who worked in Dubai. You cannot use DUBAI and Expeditious in the same sentence.
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I'm ready to be corrected, but I think you are talking about the night of the 3rd when LVPs were required? If so, then all departures were held on the ground to allow the limited number of movements allowed on the aerodrome to be used by arrivals, which were stacking up and running out of fuel. I'm sure a DXB controller will respond shortly.
Last edited by ferris; 6th Jul 2004 at 16:03.
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Well Ferris, from a pilots point of view then yes, there are departure delays out of Dubai every single morning!!!! Due to congestion on the outbound taxiways and at the threshold, a lot of aircraft are being held on stand and incurring delays. And that's when it's CAVOK......... As for LVP's!!!
Why there has to be such a gap between departures I don't know.
Why there has to be such a gap between departures I don't know.
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Well let us address a few little hard facts here....
1. The local airline hubs from Dubai, it is expanding at an inconceivable rate;
2. Dubai promotes all for one, one for all! come and use our airfield ! with an open skies policy and cheap fuel the whole world is turning up.....especially the European charters in summer, name a country and I will name you an airline that comes here!
3. All the Gulf States.....and I mean all! have decided that it would be cool to have the best airlines in the region lets match every service that the other provides which has seen an unprecedented growth or the industry in this region which has not been absorbed by the infrastructure;
4. Not only have all the Sheikdoms and countries in the Middle East decided that having their own airlines is very prestigious and profitable but hey, lets make our airfields the hub of the world!
5. In the pieces of airspace that combined are adjacent to Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, India, Saudi, Syria and Kuwait how do you think conformal procedures and smooth co-ordination will be conducted when half of them are at war, have been at war or might be at war with each other!
Hot tip, big picture stuff, things are only going to get worse unless some serious dialog is entered into between the States (not the US by the way!) to resolve airspace, airway and procedure issues.
1. The local airline hubs from Dubai, it is expanding at an inconceivable rate;
2. Dubai promotes all for one, one for all! come and use our airfield ! with an open skies policy and cheap fuel the whole world is turning up.....especially the European charters in summer, name a country and I will name you an airline that comes here!
3. All the Gulf States.....and I mean all! have decided that it would be cool to have the best airlines in the region lets match every service that the other provides which has seen an unprecedented growth or the industry in this region which has not been absorbed by the infrastructure;
4. Not only have all the Sheikdoms and countries in the Middle East decided that having their own airlines is very prestigious and profitable but hey, lets make our airfields the hub of the world!
5. In the pieces of airspace that combined are adjacent to Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, India, Saudi, Syria and Kuwait how do you think conformal procedures and smooth co-ordination will be conducted when half of them are at war, have been at war or might be at war with each other!
Hot tip, big picture stuff, things are only going to get worse unless some serious dialog is entered into between the States (not the US by the way!) to resolve airspace, airway and procedure issues.
Last edited by Fox3snapshot; 5th Jul 2004 at 21:17.
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White Knight Emirates Pilot
Just out of interests sake, while you were taxiing out for the the "morning rush" (ie. the local company launching all of the forever expanding fleet at the same time!) what are most of the company colours of the frames ahead of you at the hold point?????
Last time I transited through on a ferry flight I was quite impessed with the stupidity of the scheduling, if you are going to hub.........make sure the hub has wheels that will turn!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last time I transited through on a ferry flight I was quite impessed with the stupidity of the scheduling, if you are going to hub.........make sure the hub has wheels that will turn!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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White Knight
I was hoping someone from DXB would jump in. In the interim;
So are you answering your own question ie; the delays are because your company CHOOSES to launch many aircraft simultaneously, or are you saying the gap between departures is causing the congestion on the taxiways? The departure gap is a product of 1. wake turbulence and 2. there are only two routes westward- Iran or Bahrain, and your company CHOOSES to launch all of you one way or the other. There is no splay of departure options (as elsewhere), you are all going to be following each other, and will all have to be 10nm apart in a very short time- because that's the standard BAHRAIN USES (you know, where euroATC works). He then probably has to hand you all off to Jeddah on a procedural standard.
Wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard "ATC delay" used to describe a "hubbing delay"/ "scheduling delay"/ "runway capacity delay" / "inescapable physical limitation delay" etc. etc.
Build more runways/get better schedules/organise better procedures with neighboring countries/hire more controllers. Simple really.
In the mean time, here's a tip; GET A LOT MORE TOLERANT. It's only going to get much, much worse in the next 12 months. Happy holding.
Due to congestion on the outbound taxiways and at the threshold, a lot of aircraft are being held on stand and incurring delays
Wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard "ATC delay" used to describe a "hubbing delay"/ "scheduling delay"/ "runway capacity delay" / "inescapable physical limitation delay" etc. etc.
Build more runways/get better schedules/organise better procedures with neighboring countries/hire more controllers. Simple really.
In the mean time, here's a tip; GET A LOT MORE TOLERANT. It's only going to get much, much worse in the next 12 months. Happy holding.
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ferris, you want to call me stupid? I am stating my opinion based on 2 things.
1. from a friend who worked in Dubai, actually 2 friends, both are no longer working there
2. sitting in the cockpit (as an observer) waiting for take off clearance, the day I was there, ATC was definitely not provided on a first come first serve basis.
If you want to call someone "STUPID" do it via PM..
And yes our radar standard in Bahrain is 10 miles from UAE. There is also something called level separation. Have you ever used that? Westbound 240,280,300,320,340,360,380,400 can be used.. but I guess you knew that right?
1. from a friend who worked in Dubai, actually 2 friends, both are no longer working there
2. sitting in the cockpit (as an observer) waiting for take off clearance, the day I was there, ATC was definitely not provided on a first come first serve basis.
If you want to call someone "STUPID" do it via PM..
And yes our radar standard in Bahrain is 10 miles from UAE. There is also something called level separation. Have you ever used that? Westbound 240,280,300,320,340,360,380,400 can be used.. but I guess you knew that right?
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Euro ATC
10nm??? I'm sorry is that all the routes, or is there a 10 minute standard in there somewhere for about 2 FIR's on!!??
And why don't your friends work in Dubai anymore?
And perhaps when you were sitting in the flight deck you were on the wrong airline for a first come first serve basis....
PS: 30 degrees off runway heading would probably put the aircraft into the Sharjah circuit area which is now a bustling haven for new start ups!
And why don't your friends work in Dubai anymore?
And perhaps when you were sitting in the flight deck you were on the wrong airline for a first come first serve basis....
PS: 30 degrees off runway heading would probably put the aircraft into the Sharjah circuit area which is now a bustling haven for new start ups!
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fox3
UAE has a requirement to give us 10 miles radar separation except for aircraft routing to waypoint COPPI and BPN where they have to give us 10 minutes at same level. This is a requirement because we have to provide 10 minutes to Jeddah and also have to fit in Damman, Bahrain and Doha departures.
We have to provide 30 miles in trail to all aircraft going to Riyadh FIR, Kuwait FIR except for traffic overflying IRAQ where we have to provide 10 minutes.
The 2 friends I refered to, one is back working in Europe, the other was terminated for being a s*** disturber.
Yes maybe I was in the wrong flight deck but I tell you if Dubai wants to play in the same park as EGLL, LFPG, EDDF, CYYZ, KJFK they will have to learn how to move traffic and make rules that permit that.
30 degrees off course climb for slow aircraft, maybe you're right I don't know how it would affect OMSJ but you mean to tell me that nothing can be done to facilitate slower aircraft to increase the effeciency of the operation?
UAE has a requirement to give us 10 miles radar separation except for aircraft routing to waypoint COPPI and BPN where they have to give us 10 minutes at same level. This is a requirement because we have to provide 10 minutes to Jeddah and also have to fit in Damman, Bahrain and Doha departures.
We have to provide 30 miles in trail to all aircraft going to Riyadh FIR, Kuwait FIR except for traffic overflying IRAQ where we have to provide 10 minutes.
The 2 friends I refered to, one is back working in Europe, the other was terminated for being a s*** disturber.
Yes maybe I was in the wrong flight deck but I tell you if Dubai wants to play in the same park as EGLL, LFPG, EDDF, CYYZ, KJFK they will have to learn how to move traffic and make rules that permit that.
30 degrees off course climb for slow aircraft, maybe you're right I don't know how it would affect OMSJ but you mean to tell me that nothing can be done to facilitate slower aircraft to increase the effeciency of the operation?
Last edited by EuroATC; 6th Jul 2004 at 02:24.
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Ferris, I don't particularly mind sitting at the hold waiting for my turn to go, and yes I have to agree that it's pretty stupid that our schedulers come up with so many departures at one go
However with the advent of RVSM I would have expected things to be a little better
EuroATC is right when he says that ATC have to maybe learn to accomodate the F-50's of the world, through different (new)SIDs maybe..
However with the advent of RVSM I would have expected things to be a little better
EuroATC is right when he says that ATC have to maybe learn to accomodate the F-50's of the world, through different (new)SIDs maybe..
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Yes maybe I was in the wrong flight deck but I tell you if Dubai wants to play in the same park as EGLL, LFPG, EDDF, CYYZ, KJFK they will have to learn how to move traffic and make rules that permit that.
Euro-man, I was with you until you put Tor-anna in there!?
IMHO, YYZ is the worst "major" airport I've ever flown into. DXB on a bad day is still MILES better than YYZ. With the exception of a couple of excellent guys, the meanest, nastiest, most beligerent controllers I have ever dealt with have been in Tor-anna...
(KJFK, KBOS, KEWR or KORD are good examples, however)
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Coming backto original post, just wondering if 30 directions in use, couldnt ATC get the 1900's off 30R from say N7 and then use vectors to seperate for faster traffic behind???? All Feca departures are headed either Tosna/Balus which is not the case for most EK ...so it's only the initial departure seperation that really matters IMO...of course I'm not ATC so just wondering???????
Hey I wouldnt mind taking off VFR and maintain 1000' over water(OK stop dreaming!!) if I could avoid the 30 minutes on the ground that we currently have to wait some mornings and no not in LVP only....
But gotta give Dubai ATC some credit too, friendliest bunch of guys in the middle east and we know you're trying your best..
Worst ATC in Middle East- Saudi
Hey I wouldnt mind taking off VFR and maintain 1000' over water(OK stop dreaming!!) if I could avoid the 30 minutes on the ground that we currently have to wait some mornings and no not in LVP only....
But gotta give Dubai ATC some credit too, friendliest bunch of guys in the middle east and we know you're trying your best..
Worst ATC in Middle East- Saudi
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This is the story RWY 30 CAVOK we were told we were number 5 in sequence after these 5 aircraft we were told we were number 5 in sequence once again. This was at 0400 AM LT
If the APP ATCO would have given us an early turn out clearing us to 2.500 ft or similair have the jet behind us fly the complete sid overtaking us bout a mile a minute i guess, there would have been more then a 1.000 ft/min seperation crossing the coast imho.
clearing us to 3.000 would mean we'd also be seperated from the traffic on the ILS.
It was not my intention to "attack" DXB ATC since they're overall doing a good job only once in a while.... I can't figure why certain decisions are made.
Coastrider
If the APP ATCO would have given us an early turn out clearing us to 2.500 ft or similair have the jet behind us fly the complete sid overtaking us bout a mile a minute i guess, there would have been more then a 1.000 ft/min seperation crossing the coast imho.
clearing us to 3.000 would mean we'd also be seperated from the traffic on the ILS.
It was not my intention to "attack" DXB ATC since they're overall doing a good job only once in a while.... I can't figure why certain decisions are made.
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bus canuck..
Never said guys in Toronto were nice
They are not haha I worked there and i'm not nice either hahaha...
stats wise though, they move alot of traffic (except when on 33's.. then they have to space 5 miles...otherwise it's 3 down the localizer)
Never said guys in Toronto were nice
They are not haha I worked there and i'm not nice either hahaha... stats wise though, they move alot of traffic (except when on 33's.. then they have to space 5 miles...otherwise it's 3 down the localizer)
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Purpose of a PM was to not "bore" people on the forum.. you really do lack profesionalism by calling people "stupid" and "moron". For the record I am not bitter, I just don't enjoy double standards. I come from 2 places where everyone (staff) is treated equally.. that is not the case out here. Bahrain is a much better place to work than Abu Dhabi and Dubai..for 3 reasons. We are paid quite a bit more, our housing is leaps and bounds better than what you have and our general manager is a great guy. Not sure where you get your "stories" from but you should verify the accuracy of your information before spouting out comments like that.
Don't talk to me about ignorance, I am not sure if your first language is english or not but you don't seem to be able to read a post. Go back and read coastriders question. He is asking why he is put at the back of the cue behind jets. This has nothing to do with LVP's, we all know that movements are reduced when vis is down.
To conclude, just because there are only 12 props a day as you write, doesn't mean they should get screwed on departure everytime they want to operate. I guess you have worked in UAE too long with all it's mickey mouse rules.
Flame away ladd!
Don't talk to me about ignorance, I am not sure if your first language is english or not but you don't seem to be able to read a post. Go back and read coastriders question. He is asking why he is put at the back of the cue behind jets. This has nothing to do with LVP's, we all know that movements are reduced when vis is down.
To conclude, just because there are only 12 props a day as you write, doesn't mean they should get screwed on departure everytime they want to operate. I guess you have worked in UAE too long with all it's mickey mouse rules.
Flame away ladd!
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This has nothing to do with LVP's, we all know that movements are reduced when vis is down
First off, the guys question has nothing to do with being held on the ground because of arrivals.
Please go away- we all know you are leaving and are getting it all out of your system- but we are trying to improve things. What's your motive for posting?
Respect is a reflective thing, you get what you give. It has nothing to do with 'professionalism'. Difficult concepts, I know, but ask someone to help you.
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you are hopeless, yes i'm glad i'm leaving here, can't wait to get back home. It's good people are trying to improve things, unfortunately you should not be one of those people since you don't have clue. Go work in a real centre and then come see me, until then you are best to keep your narrow minded comments and ideas to yourself.
This thread started with someone asking a question. I merely agreed with coastrider and what do I get? I get personally attacked by someone in the peanut gallery. I really wish I knew who you were, you have me at an unfair advantage since you know who I am. People seem to talk the big talk when behind a username.
This thread started with someone asking a question. I merely agreed with coastrider and what do I get? I get personally attacked by someone in the peanut gallery. I really wish I knew who you were, you have me at an unfair advantage since you know who I am. People seem to talk the big talk when behind a username.
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Like I said before at the night in question it was CAVOK, so no reasons for LVP\'s whatsoever. We saw about 11 jets come by.
I agree there not that much turboprops around, guess we are so special we need special attention.
any change direct destination next time???
I agree there not that much turboprops around, guess we are so special we need special attention.
any change direct destination next time???
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First of all, Ferris & Euro ATC, easy boys, ya might bust something. Hey Euro ATC, it's been awhile!!! Lighten up, we've thrashed this all out before and especially because of who you know, you should understand why we have the problems we do. Oh and you're not the only one heading to the big white North in the coming months
Look guys I've said this loads on these boards, give us a break. Dubai has hugely varying experience levels among its controllers, it's very slowly improving but not enough to cope with the expansion in traffic. We (ATCO's) don't make the rules, not even our management do. We get them written on stone from the great Danish one who sits on high, who has absolutely no relation with the real world what so ever.
As for the airspace and SIDS/STARS: being reviewed at the moment but don't hold your breathe.
Early turn procedures: have been looked at but like all good ideas here, run into a brick wall at GCAA. Can only vector you after passing 2000'. If ya small, try asking for an early turn with your own terrain clearance. APP can only say no.
Gridlock on the ground: Should not still be happening, delays are meant to be at the stand.
One of the problems at DXB is standardisation, all the watches do things differently. Some are slicker than others, some more by numbers. We are trying to correct this but not enough staff to do so. This ain't just a problem in Dubai either, Ferris?
The eternal ATC plea to the heavens comes to mind as well: "WHY MUST YOU ALL WANT TO FLY AT THE SAME TIME?" I know you must but a difference of 5 minutes can make all the difference.
Lastly, let me reitterate what someone said earlier," Why is this happening on pprune?" Isn't time some kind of working group was organised, ATC & users?
Rgds FT