Dubai departures/delays
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Holland
Age: 47
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps we can setup an Pilots/ATC meeting to discuss this kind of things on a thursday night that's when most falcon guys are off.
Perhaps a keg at the Cellar since you guys come there as well.
Perhaps a keg at the Cellar since you guys come there as well.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have edited some of my posts, on advice from the mods, to remove 'the edge'.
Ok, so I've ascertained from pm's that the LVPs are not the gripe here. Coastrider, if you can organise a get-together (informally or otherwise), I'm sure a lot of things would be clearer. Your idea of levelling off is only OK if you can get far enough from the field for whoever is doing the releases to get the next guy above you. Some of the climb-out rates have to be seen to be believed in summer. It would actually be better for you to get as high as you can, then fire the jet underneath. A point missed by some pilots is that jets and turbo's will be the same height at the same distance from the field, it's just that the jet gets there quicker.
As mentioned by someone else, changes originating from the floor are not very welcome here (yet). But some of us are trying.
Ok, so I've ascertained from pm's that the LVPs are not the gripe here. Coastrider, if you can organise a get-together (informally or otherwise), I'm sure a lot of things would be clearer. Your idea of levelling off is only OK if you can get far enough from the field for whoever is doing the releases to get the next guy above you. Some of the climb-out rates have to be seen to be believed in summer. It would actually be better for you to get as high as you can, then fire the jet underneath. A point missed by some pilots is that jets and turbo's will be the same height at the same distance from the field, it's just that the jet gets there quicker.
As mentioned by someone else, changes originating from the floor are not very welcome here (yet). But some of us are trying.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Dubai
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The best thing they can do in the UAE, is to build a brand new airport in between Dubai and Abu and invest in larger radar coverage. If needed all the way to India.
In not EK will start to eat it’s own tail. Money can do a lot but not the impossoble.
I will guarantee you today that soon there will be an EK getting short of fuel at his destination. Remember that contingency fuel is there to cover AIRBORNE contingencies and NOT extra taxi fuel.
In not EK will start to eat it’s own tail. Money can do a lot but not the impossoble.
I will guarantee you today that soon there will be an EK getting short of fuel at his destination. Remember that contingency fuel is there to cover AIRBORNE contingencies and NOT extra taxi fuel.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: sandpit
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fly Through and Euro ATC.
Congrats on a job well done with whingeing pilots. What about slot's, in Dubai.? Traffic must warrant it by now.Most controllers are exceptionally accommodating if you JUST ASK them. Am I right? In my opinion the best controllers are the South Africans, Zimbabweans, British and Australians, at least you can understand them. As I heard one night from a MCT controller say to a b-t--ing EK guy, "I have the big picture", AND THEY DEFINATELY DO. That applies on the ground as well. Maybe you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you.You could end up holding somewhere by some-one who has got very cranky with you.
Sure you can complain, but not a good idea to do it in the aircraft, unless it jeopardises safety. Fuel wise: take extra, we know after a bit of experience when delays are likely VMC or IMC, no excuses there.
Congrats on a job well done with whingeing pilots. What about slot's, in Dubai.? Traffic must warrant it by now.Most controllers are exceptionally accommodating if you JUST ASK them. Am I right? In my opinion the best controllers are the South Africans, Zimbabweans, British and Australians, at least you can understand them. As I heard one night from a MCT controller say to a b-t--ing EK guy, "I have the big picture", AND THEY DEFINATELY DO. That applies on the ground as well. Maybe you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you.You could end up holding somewhere by some-one who has got very cranky with you.
Sure you can complain, but not a good idea to do it in the aircraft, unless it jeopardises safety. Fuel wise: take extra, we know after a bit of experience when delays are likely VMC or IMC, no excuses there.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UAE
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Coastrider,
There used to be a time when some nice tower controller would offer you a convenient turn on course and to remain on his frequency to expedite your departure. Not in the rule book but good safe controlling. Yes the airport is expanding but procedures are not worth operating a regional airport under. A Sid in existence for 3 years now even cancels all subsequent departures as the initial turn creates a reciprocal track. Imagine the slow climber followed by a business jet!!! ouch. 3 years no change!Why have Sid's? Of course you can work around it and turn the first departure but that is not in the procedures either! So when Euro says this is Procedural problems, He is right. There is a thing called Radar seperation and Heavy Heavy is 4 miles. Dubai Is NOT a radar tower and hence uses time seperation. There is also a thing called control transfer of inbound IFR's. Dubai operates as an IMC airport 365 days a year! And the list goes on and on... Hopefully with the new Non Aberdeen trained standards officer, things might change!Next time you sit in the queue, time the departure interval... If you are lucky and get A or D watch, those ladies and gents do move some serious metal... Or at least they did!
Happy flying, I will worry about my simulator from now on...
And Fly through...welcome to the real world, A liitle cold but really nice!!!Congrats!
There used to be a time when some nice tower controller would offer you a convenient turn on course and to remain on his frequency to expedite your departure. Not in the rule book but good safe controlling. Yes the airport is expanding but procedures are not worth operating a regional airport under. A Sid in existence for 3 years now even cancels all subsequent departures as the initial turn creates a reciprocal track. Imagine the slow climber followed by a business jet!!! ouch. 3 years no change!Why have Sid's? Of course you can work around it and turn the first departure but that is not in the procedures either! So when Euro says this is Procedural problems, He is right. There is a thing called Radar seperation and Heavy Heavy is 4 miles. Dubai Is NOT a radar tower and hence uses time seperation. There is also a thing called control transfer of inbound IFR's. Dubai operates as an IMC airport 365 days a year! And the list goes on and on... Hopefully with the new Non Aberdeen trained standards officer, things might change!Next time you sit in the queue, time the departure interval... If you are lucky and get A or D watch, those ladies and gents do move some serious metal... Or at least they did!
Happy flying, I will worry about my simulator from now on...
And Fly through...welcome to the real world, A liitle cold but really nice!!!Congrats!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: next door to the pub
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks STG 
Already studying the rules for Hockey ready for the next season.
Don't hold your breathe for any change coming soon. The controller technical committee has been trying push lots of procedure changes but has run into a brick wall. Whilst the people in the unit do want to change things, as soon as it comes to the regulator everything grinds to a halt. Maybe the new reorganisation will help but I doubt it as all these new managerial types are not being replaced on the shop floor.
For all our users, we do try our best but what it comes down to is personal responsibility. Just because one controller does one thing and another won't, doesn't mean he/she doesn't want to but they probably are worried about the fallout if something went wrong. Remember this is still a blame culture. If it comes to expedition or covering ones butt, sorry guys you'll have to wait.
Already studying the rules for Hockey ready for the next season.Don't hold your breathe for any change coming soon. The controller technical committee has been trying push lots of procedure changes but has run into a brick wall. Whilst the people in the unit do want to change things, as soon as it comes to the regulator everything grinds to a halt. Maybe the new reorganisation will help but I doubt it as all these new managerial types are not being replaced on the shop floor.
For all our users, we do try our best but what it comes down to is personal responsibility. Just because one controller does one thing and another won't, doesn't mean he/she doesn't want to but they probably are worried about the fallout if something went wrong. Remember this is still a blame culture. If it comes to expedition or covering ones butt, sorry guys you'll have to wait.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UAE
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi all
I am amazed at the inconsistencies written so far, especially from the Dubai guys. With all due respect, how can you talk of having to comply with procedures "forced" on you by the regulator when you openly admit to watches having different standards. Come on guys, what gives. If you comply with procedures, as laid down, surely you should all be working to the same standard?????
If one goes back in history a bit you will find that the current procedures were enforced due to Dubai managment sitting idle. Had Dubai management done what they were supposed to do i.e. work! then none of what has happened transpired. It is a fact that Dubai management fiddled while Rome burnt. They, at the time, had no idea of what to do or how to do it.
I see another posting quering the runway change last Friday night. I was not on shift at the ACC that night but heard from my colleagues that it was an total and utter shambles. How can the ACC plan effectively when no plan exists at Dubai. Dubai has a Co-ord position whose function it is to pre-empt this sort of thing. Get your feet off the console and look at the scope, plan and communicate. Simple really.
And lastly, I am also amazed at how Dubai complains of staff shortages. A typical evening will start with a call "We are short of staff so expect delays." Do the airlines know that the delays experienced are from staff shortages, what is happening to the recent spate of hirings? Methinks to much time is wasted on controller technical committees. One wonders how effectively the contract is being managed in La La Land.
Cheers
I am amazed at the inconsistencies written so far, especially from the Dubai guys. With all due respect, how can you talk of having to comply with procedures "forced" on you by the regulator when you openly admit to watches having different standards. Come on guys, what gives. If you comply with procedures, as laid down, surely you should all be working to the same standard?????
If one goes back in history a bit you will find that the current procedures were enforced due to Dubai managment sitting idle. Had Dubai management done what they were supposed to do i.e. work! then none of what has happened transpired. It is a fact that Dubai management fiddled while Rome burnt. They, at the time, had no idea of what to do or how to do it.
I see another posting quering the runway change last Friday night. I was not on shift at the ACC that night but heard from my colleagues that it was an total and utter shambles. How can the ACC plan effectively when no plan exists at Dubai. Dubai has a Co-ord position whose function it is to pre-empt this sort of thing. Get your feet off the console and look at the scope, plan and communicate. Simple really.
And lastly, I am also amazed at how Dubai complains of staff shortages. A typical evening will start with a call "We are short of staff so expect delays." Do the airlines know that the delays experienced are from staff shortages, what is happening to the recent spate of hirings? Methinks to much time is wasted on controller technical committees. One wonders how effectively the contract is being managed in La La Land.
Cheers
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Certainly. In the fullness of time. I would love to hear from DXB bods, first. After all, you know the constraints we all work under, Julio
Edited to protect Canadian sensibilities.
Edited to protect Canadian sensibilities.
Last edited by ferris; 12th Jul 2004 at 08:51.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: in a van, down by the river
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
feris,
Is that your best attempt at professionalism by trying to identify a poster by his/her real name?????? And if it is, ....try and at least get it right!!!! Makes you look silly.
Is that your best attempt at professionalism by trying to identify a poster by his/her real name?????? And if it is, ....try and at least get it right!!!! Makes you look silly.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Geneva
Age: 51
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's good to see i'm not the only one who has absolutely no time for Ferris. 
I keep reading about all these constraints in the UAE/Dubai.. and the dictatorship run by the great dane. Well guys, dictators have been taken down before. Why don't you all get together and grow some ba***. Stand up to this guy and say "no we're not putting up with these ridiculous things anymore". I know many working in UAE worship the ground they walk on for having a job and escaping a bad situation in their home countries.. WELL GUESS WHAT??? The management/great dane know this.. and they take advantage of you... stand up for yourselves and make the ATC work properly and more effeciently.
I keep reading about all these constraints in the UAE/Dubai.. and the dictatorship run by the great dane. Well guys, dictators have been taken down before. Why don't you all get together and grow some ba***. Stand up to this guy and say "no we're not putting up with these ridiculous things anymore". I know many working in UAE worship the ground they walk on for having a job and escaping a bad situation in their home countries.. WELL GUESS WHAT??? The management/great dane know this.. and they take advantage of you... stand up for yourselves and make the ATC work properly and more effeciently.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vercingetorix. Haha, very funny Julio . Better work on your accent
JoeCo; Chill man, Julio and I know each other, and enjoy the sparring. As for you- are you just batting for your Canuck friend? Can't he fight his own battles? What has 'professionalism' got to do with it? As for 'looking silly', well.........
EuroATC. If you have no time for me, ignore my posts, simple really. But you continually mouth off on subjects of which you have no knowledge (by your own admission, I might add). I realise you are counting the days (7 to go, is it?), and are going thru the usual 'venting' before a person leaves, spraying vitriol at everyone and everything in the M.E.. As for naive statements like
It's no wonder you don't fit in. You are in the M.E. You cannot transplant YOUR way of thinking into how things are done here. Either adapt, accept it and do your best with what you are given, or resist and break. There is no 'standing up'. Thanks for your 'wisdom', anyway.
No matter where you are located in this field, the same applies the world over. It's just a matter of degree. It all depends on how you look at it. When you have switched into negative mode (as you have), then nothing will seem right.
Still waiting to hear from Fly thru et al.
Radar Pete. Questions need to be asked, but is it going to help to get into a slanging match, here?
JoeCo; Chill man, Julio and I know each other, and enjoy the sparring. As for you- are you just batting for your Canuck friend? Can't he fight his own battles? What has 'professionalism' got to do with it? As for 'looking silly', well.........
EuroATC. If you have no time for me, ignore my posts, simple really. But you continually mouth off on subjects of which you have no knowledge (by your own admission, I might add). I realise you are counting the days (7 to go, is it?), and are going thru the usual 'venting' before a person leaves, spraying vitriol at everyone and everything in the M.E.. As for naive statements like
Why don't you all get together and grow some ba***. Stand up to this guy and say "no we're not putting up with these ridiculous things anymore".
and they take advantage of you...
Still waiting to hear from Fly thru et al.
Radar Pete. Questions need to be asked, but is it going to help to get into a slanging match, here?
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UAE
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ferris
Slanging match? I doubt it, more like facts coming out. I do agree that a better forum is required but always sad for issues to be resolved through forums and committees. Dubai need to sort out their 'standards' issues before getting together.
Slanging match? I doubt it, more like facts coming out. I do agree that a better forum is required but always sad for issues to be resolved through forums and committees. Dubai need to sort out their 'standards' issues before getting together.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Geneva
Age: 51
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ferris, not sure where you get the things you say about me. Let me set you straight "mate".
1. I do not mouth off on subjects which I have no knowledge, first off, my initial post on this topic was made from an observation sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft... second, I work right beside you guys and know how you operate...third to add to that I know a few working there in UAE and also have 2 good friends here who used to work in the UAE... Also have 2 friends who worked in Dubai.
2. Sorry to disappoint, I still have 9 shifts to go. I am not venting, I had this point of view 6 months after arriving here. See thing is, I made some suggestions in Bahrain, some were taken and changes have started happening, others were ignored. I understand how it works and I CHOOSE to not continue working here. It's not just "my" way of thinking by the way, most others here know that change is needed and we all agree on what needs to be done.
3. If fitting in is sitting there and being abused and taking crap from above (as you all do in UAE) then ferris you are right, I do not fit in. I don't see how you are qualified to make such a statement since you don't personally know me. Do I fit in operationally? Yes, I checked out and very fast at that, do I fit in socially? I get along better with the locals than most other expats do... I really don't see where you are coming from.
4. Uhh.. yes they do take advantage of you and will continue to do so. You would be amazed what could happen if you all stood together...but of course this won't be possible because you have so many over there that are afraid to rock the boat.
5. And no, the same doesn't apply everywhere... You cannot use ME and anywhere else in the same sentence. I've worked in Europe and North America and it's a totally different ballgame.
If you have kids you'll know what I mean when I say it's pointless to argue with a child. Just last week you went spouting off at me about LVP's when that wasn't even the question on this topic. Now you're spouting off about me not knowing what I am talking about. If you notice, you seem to take a go at everyone on this topic.. maybe it's not everyone else that's wrong.... ever stop to think that you're the one who hasn't a clue what you are talking about. Some food for thought. Well whatever you think, I really don't care.. I have worked here for a while, I know the drill and understand how the game works.
An added note, I was told who you are, we've had it out on the phone line before too. Even one of your fellow countrymen working over on this side said "that guys too nasty to be from ***".
1. I do not mouth off on subjects which I have no knowledge, first off, my initial post on this topic was made from an observation sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft... second, I work right beside you guys and know how you operate...third to add to that I know a few working there in UAE and also have 2 good friends here who used to work in the UAE... Also have 2 friends who worked in Dubai.
2. Sorry to disappoint, I still have 9 shifts to go. I am not venting, I had this point of view 6 months after arriving here. See thing is, I made some suggestions in Bahrain, some were taken and changes have started happening, others were ignored. I understand how it works and I CHOOSE to not continue working here. It's not just "my" way of thinking by the way, most others here know that change is needed and we all agree on what needs to be done.
3. If fitting in is sitting there and being abused and taking crap from above (as you all do in UAE) then ferris you are right, I do not fit in. I don't see how you are qualified to make such a statement since you don't personally know me. Do I fit in operationally? Yes, I checked out and very fast at that, do I fit in socially? I get along better with the locals than most other expats do... I really don't see where you are coming from.
4. Uhh.. yes they do take advantage of you and will continue to do so. You would be amazed what could happen if you all stood together...but of course this won't be possible because you have so many over there that are afraid to rock the boat.
5. And no, the same doesn't apply everywhere... You cannot use ME and anywhere else in the same sentence. I've worked in Europe and North America and it's a totally different ballgame.
If you have kids you'll know what I mean when I say it's pointless to argue with a child. Just last week you went spouting off at me about LVP's when that wasn't even the question on this topic. Now you're spouting off about me not knowing what I am talking about. If you notice, you seem to take a go at everyone on this topic.. maybe it's not everyone else that's wrong.... ever stop to think that you're the one who hasn't a clue what you are talking about. Some food for thought. Well whatever you think, I really don't care.. I have worked here for a while, I know the drill and understand how the game works.
An added note, I was told who you are, we've had it out on the phone line before too. Even one of your fellow countrymen working over on this side said "that guys too nasty to be from ***".