Planned Emirates service starting June 1st into JFK being reviewed?
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Planned Emirates service starting June 1st into JFK being reviewed?
So, in light of the rather extraordinary measures United States Government authorities have seen fit to impose on foreign airlines operating into the US, what price the June 1st start date for EK into JFK might slip yet again?
I can’t help but think that an ‘Ay-rab’ airline operating from that ‘hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism’ (Dubai[!]) directly into Gotham City (in a goddamned **** Frenchie airplane!) might be in for some serious scrutiny with long and extremely annoying delays for both pax and crew.
That’s if one in ten flights ever get to land at JFK, let alone be allowed to approach US airspace, with an ‘airplane’ load of Mohammed Bin Alis on board. (That’s assuming any self-respecting Arab will ever want to go to the US again, which is highly doubtful.) And pity help the poor UAE skymarshals (placed aboard at US Government insistence) when they’re found by the TSA to be armed and Arabic in Noo Yawk!
My bet’s on a quick switch to Toronto and Vancouver (in lieu of JFK an SFO) for EK – a decision quite a few believe they should have arrived at even before this latest madness.
Not at all unrelated: if you have shares in any US educational institution, my recommendation would be to sell, sell, sell, for I can see a huge drop off in enrolments from overseas students. Sadly for the US, I believe something similar might well apply to many other sectors of the US economy as foreigners decide in droves that the game of getting into the country to do business just ain’t worth the candle.
I can’t help but think that an ‘Ay-rab’ airline operating from that ‘hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism’ (Dubai[!]) directly into Gotham City (in a goddamned **** Frenchie airplane!) might be in for some serious scrutiny with long and extremely annoying delays for both pax and crew.
That’s if one in ten flights ever get to land at JFK, let alone be allowed to approach US airspace, with an ‘airplane’ load of Mohammed Bin Alis on board. (That’s assuming any self-respecting Arab will ever want to go to the US again, which is highly doubtful.) And pity help the poor UAE skymarshals (placed aboard at US Government insistence) when they’re found by the TSA to be armed and Arabic in Noo Yawk!
My bet’s on a quick switch to Toronto and Vancouver (in lieu of JFK an SFO) for EK – a decision quite a few believe they should have arrived at even before this latest madness.
Not at all unrelated: if you have shares in any US educational institution, my recommendation would be to sell, sell, sell, for I can see a huge drop off in enrolments from overseas students. Sadly for the US, I believe something similar might well apply to many other sectors of the US economy as foreigners decide in droves that the game of getting into the country to do business just ain’t worth the candle.
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No college or universities in the US, other than certain "trade" type schools are organized as for profit public corporations with shares of stock available. Any more logical advice?
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flights to Canada instead of USA a hope rather than a theory? Anti-US rhetoric poorly disguised there, croozin. A lot of emotion without much logic to back it up.
Since the Sept 11 culprits held passports from aforementioned region, can see the logic in sensible action. Public opinion in the US demands it and they hold the votes. Can't see your logic though.
Don't think you'll find many publicly listed colleges in the US.
And as evidenced by Donkey Duke, can't see lack of enrolments or fees from certain regions bothering their locals much.
Use of "blasphemy" never sure to gain you much support either.
Take a look. Small-timers aside, it's not the people doing business in the US that have the trouble getting in.
Since the Sept 11 culprits held passports from aforementioned region, can see the logic in sensible action. Public opinion in the US demands it and they hold the votes. Can't see your logic though.
Don't think you'll find many publicly listed colleges in the US.
And as evidenced by Donkey Duke, can't see lack of enrolments or fees from certain regions bothering their locals much.
Use of "blasphemy" never sure to gain you much support either.
Take a look. Small-timers aside, it's not the people doing business in the US that have the trouble getting in.
Last edited by Muttley Crew; 6th Jan 2004 at 17:13.
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Twenty-one minutes from posting to a typical ‘hijack the thread’ response from Bubbette, Croozin’. That must be a record. It’s good to see in the last post that someone is at last addressing the subject of the thread rather than the thin-skinned responses of the first few replies.
Any American who can’t see how ridiculous this is getting has well and truly got the blinkers on.
Like Croozin, I thought most American universities (sorry, ‘colleges’) except maybe for community colleges, were profit-making operations that looked for quite a substantial part of their income from full fee-paying overseas students. If the recently introduced security measures don’t have an effect on overseas student numbers I’d be very surprised – and despite the patently silly comments of one respondent about how good it will be, allowing Americans with lower SATs to get into college, I’m sure the financial controllers at most colleges (to say nothing of the local American landlords, airlines, telephone companies, banks - you name it) will be quite concerned to see a further reduction of overseas students.
As for the comments that these new measures won’t keep ‘genuine’ businessmen away, I can say from first hand knowledge that I know one wealthy and very cosmopolitan Arab who says he will never go back to the States after the way he was treated a year ago at JFK (before the current silliness was introduced). And that means a LOT of business (=money) is no longer coming the way of American companies he would have been dealing with to this day.
Getting back to the point of the thread: I don’t know what the final decision will be, but I’d be willing to bet that Emirates senior management have discussed the pros and cons of continuing or delaying the planned start of the New York service on June 1st. Emirates might be ‘small cheese’ to the Americans, but small cheese or not, they have it in their power to send a loud and clear message to the US that they (the US) are definitely ‘losing it’, by stating loud and clear that they’re not willing to put their passengers (and crews?) through a set of procedures that seem to this observer to be almost designed to cripple and finally kill an already staggering industry.
I’ve heard that the US authorities are demanding a complete crew list from EK, which they will approve or disapprove of quite some time before the aircraft departs, and if someone goes sick or there’s a substitution for any reason, the flight will not be able to depart until the change is approved by the US. To cover this eventuality, will Emirates be submitting a ‘spares’ list of pilots and FAs as well as the ‘real’ crew for every flight?
As for armed Arab sky marshals on aircraft approaching and landing in NYC (at American insistence): if there’s an American out there who can’t see how crazy that seems to an outsider, I give up. Wasn’t the last attempted hijacking in Saudi Arabia carried out by Saudia security guards?
Any American who can’t see how ridiculous this is getting has well and truly got the blinkers on.
Like Croozin, I thought most American universities (sorry, ‘colleges’) except maybe for community colleges, were profit-making operations that looked for quite a substantial part of their income from full fee-paying overseas students. If the recently introduced security measures don’t have an effect on overseas student numbers I’d be very surprised – and despite the patently silly comments of one respondent about how good it will be, allowing Americans with lower SATs to get into college, I’m sure the financial controllers at most colleges (to say nothing of the local American landlords, airlines, telephone companies, banks - you name it) will be quite concerned to see a further reduction of overseas students.
As for the comments that these new measures won’t keep ‘genuine’ businessmen away, I can say from first hand knowledge that I know one wealthy and very cosmopolitan Arab who says he will never go back to the States after the way he was treated a year ago at JFK (before the current silliness was introduced). And that means a LOT of business (=money) is no longer coming the way of American companies he would have been dealing with to this day.
Getting back to the point of the thread: I don’t know what the final decision will be, but I’d be willing to bet that Emirates senior management have discussed the pros and cons of continuing or delaying the planned start of the New York service on June 1st. Emirates might be ‘small cheese’ to the Americans, but small cheese or not, they have it in their power to send a loud and clear message to the US that they (the US) are definitely ‘losing it’, by stating loud and clear that they’re not willing to put their passengers (and crews?) through a set of procedures that seem to this observer to be almost designed to cripple and finally kill an already staggering industry.
I’ve heard that the US authorities are demanding a complete crew list from EK, which they will approve or disapprove of quite some time before the aircraft departs, and if someone goes sick or there’s a substitution for any reason, the flight will not be able to depart until the change is approved by the US. To cover this eventuality, will Emirates be submitting a ‘spares’ list of pilots and FAs as well as the ‘real’ crew for every flight?
As for armed Arab sky marshals on aircraft approaching and landing in NYC (at American insistence): if there’s an American out there who can’t see how crazy that seems to an outsider, I give up. Wasn’t the last attempted hijacking in Saudi Arabia carried out by Saudia security guards?
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Don't see what the big deal is...Malaysia Airlines Limited Berhad (MAS) already flies three times a week between DXB and EWR (with full traffic rights) with their 777's and has been doing so for a number of years (long before 9/11). To my mind, their service, even in economy class, is second to none.
Saudia, Royal Jordanian, Egyptair, Royal Air Maroc, Kuwaiti already fly to New York on a regular basis. No reason why Emirates can't do the same.
Saudia, Royal Jordanian, Egyptair, Royal Air Maroc, Kuwaiti already fly to New York on a regular basis. No reason why Emirates can't do the same.
Last edited by Huh??; 7th Jan 2004 at 10:09.
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7x7
I presume that you are talking about the 777 flight to London which was hijacked to Baghdad. The hijackers werent SAUDIA security guards, one was an immigration officer and the other was from the military. At least one of them was returned to Saudi Arabia courtesy of the US takeover of Iraq.
Huh, passengers on those airlines are looking at a 3-4 hour arrival process in the USA which has resulted in a major drop off in leisure traffic.
Mutt.
Wasn’t the last attempted hijacking in Saudi Arabia carried out by Saudia security guards?
Huh, passengers on those airlines are looking at a 3-4 hour arrival process in the USA which has resulted in a major drop off in leisure traffic.
Mutt.
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My two cents worth
I would like to comment on the first few replies made to this post. Realize that I have seen both sides of this situation, i.e.: grew up and now live in the M.E., but graduated and have worked (both Forune 500 corporate and aviation) in the U.S.
I think that the mentality of many people in the U.S. will start changing as the economy starts to slip down again. You have to look beyond the borders of the States, you guys might be a huge economy, but definitely not huge enough to support yourselves and the economy in every way if international trade and business begins to slump.
Don't think there's enough people in the States to consume all that you produce... Also in some industries, you guys surely can't produce all that the country needs. Also believe it or not, tourism is a big part of the income there.
Try to shut your borders to all the above and sooner or later your kids are in big trouble! Think about an American being treated like a pre-meditated criminal everytime he/she is at a foreign airport. I know we have all seen some really pissed off Americans when they are treated like that before, so just remember that foreigners feel the same there....
Anyways, no offense meant to anyone and for the record I have nothing against the States. I was in NYC for a year after 9/11 (as a pilot) and love the place. My entire family lives there and I own a condo there myself....
Let's just all start to chill about the situation.
I think that the mentality of many people in the U.S. will start changing as the economy starts to slip down again. You have to look beyond the borders of the States, you guys might be a huge economy, but definitely not huge enough to support yourselves and the economy in every way if international trade and business begins to slump.
Don't think there's enough people in the States to consume all that you produce... Also in some industries, you guys surely can't produce all that the country needs. Also believe it or not, tourism is a big part of the income there.
Try to shut your borders to all the above and sooner or later your kids are in big trouble! Think about an American being treated like a pre-meditated criminal everytime he/she is at a foreign airport. I know we have all seen some really pissed off Americans when they are treated like that before, so just remember that foreigners feel the same there....
Anyways, no offense meant to anyone and for the record I have nothing against the States. I was in NYC for a year after 9/11 (as a pilot) and love the place. My entire family lives there and I own a condo there myself....
Let's just all start to chill about the situation.
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France, for example, does not allow Saudi or Emerati vistors without a visa and has recently adopted a law that foreigners needing visas be fingerprinted and photographed at French consulates abroad. Practice intercepts on commercial airliners are also routine for the French Air Force.
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Spoke to a French consulate visa department yesterday looking for the requirements for an Iranian national........ 14 days, application form, no fingerprinting mentioned......
Huh, are you sure of your information?
Mutt.
Huh, are you sure of your information?
Mutt.
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Simple solution to ease fears or terrorist threats to US airspace
As I have sat and listened, and read, and observed the continuous addition of procedures being implemented by the US in regards to foreign airlines entering the US, I have come up with what I think is a rather novel solution that should ease the fears of the US. The solution....NO FOREIGN AIRLINE FLYING TO THE US.
At first glance, the thought is absurd. What would happen to the economies of major international airports such as JFK, LAX, ORD that derive so much of their income from a host of foreign airlines that use them. This solution has another part to it, and that is NO US CARRIER ALLOWED TO FLY OUTSIDE THE US EXCEPT TO DESIGNATED AIRPORTS.
The thought process is this. Designate 3 or 4 major airports in Canada strecthing from YYZ,YUL in the east to YVR in the west. In addition, designate 3 or 4 airports in Mexico spanning the country from the gulf of Mexico to the Pacific. All foreign airlines depending on their points or origin would be routed to one of these airports. US carriers would then fly to these ports and pick up connecting passengers and take them to the US.
This would eliminate the "foreign airline phobia" so the TSA would only have to concentrate on the local US carriers. The threat level would then automatically be reduced within the US and the harrasment level of foreign airlines and crews would be eliminated. Just a thought!!. Whats yours?
At first glance, the thought is absurd. What would happen to the economies of major international airports such as JFK, LAX, ORD that derive so much of their income from a host of foreign airlines that use them. This solution has another part to it, and that is NO US CARRIER ALLOWED TO FLY OUTSIDE THE US EXCEPT TO DESIGNATED AIRPORTS.
The thought process is this. Designate 3 or 4 major airports in Canada strecthing from YYZ,YUL in the east to YVR in the west. In addition, designate 3 or 4 airports in Mexico spanning the country from the gulf of Mexico to the Pacific. All foreign airlines depending on their points or origin would be routed to one of these airports. US carriers would then fly to these ports and pick up connecting passengers and take them to the US.
This would eliminate the "foreign airline phobia" so the TSA would only have to concentrate on the local US carriers. The threat level would then automatically be reduced within the US and the harrasment level of foreign airlines and crews would be eliminated. Just a thought!!. Whats yours?
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Ummmm, guys - no offense meant and with all due respect....
Let's just remember that no matter where the guys were from, 9/11 was a big security booo booo on part of the US airlines, don't think there was any foreign carrier involved there....
I used to be in and out of the NY airports on an everyday basis and that could easily be blamed to the $2/hr. untrained, security officers....
For every other part of the world you'd usually see an armed guard at the aircraft and police type security....
Let's just face it and ease out, I think things were a lot better without all the complications, now we are just motivating criminals with new ways of breaking the law and security....
Just a personal opinion, and for the record, I lost a few close friends and watched the WTC go down... So it hurts me as much as any American out there....
Let's just remember that no matter where the guys were from, 9/11 was a big security booo booo on part of the US airlines, don't think there was any foreign carrier involved there....
I used to be in and out of the NY airports on an everyday basis and that could easily be blamed to the $2/hr. untrained, security officers....
For every other part of the world you'd usually see an armed guard at the aircraft and police type security....
Let's just face it and ease out, I think things were a lot better without all the complications, now we are just motivating criminals with new ways of breaking the law and security....
Just a personal opinion, and for the record, I lost a few close friends and watched the WTC go down... So it hurts me as much as any American out there....
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Being isolationist only plays into the terrorist's hand.
The answer is education. Deterring visitors etc. only serves to perpetuate myths and further demonise.
The answer is education. Deterring visitors etc. only serves to perpetuate myths and further demonise.
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Anyone who has seen the 'Quality' security operation at Toronto, operated by subcontracted, minimum wage morons who can't speak English or French, and who are allowed to bypass security themselves, and hold security badges based on a check that doesn't even verify their stated identity, has to wonder what kind of airmarshal will be invited onto Canadian aircraft.
Presumably, the owners of these security companies play golf with the airport authority types who hire their services.
If these new skymarshals are not 'real' policemen (and women), I don't want to be on the same plane.
Presumably, the owners of these security companies play golf with the airport authority types who hire their services.
If these new skymarshals are not 'real' policemen (and women), I don't want to be on the same plane.
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Rosbif,
For your information, Air marshalls flying on Canadian aircrafts are "real cops". Those trained professionnals are from the federal police corp: RCMP and I have no problem having them onboard my airplane. They are not the problem!
As for airport security itself, that is another can of worms... Guidance is federal, but application delegated to local airport authorities. Therefore, standards and procedures vary from an airport to another. As far as screening goes: a pain in the ass everywhere I've been in the country, but not as much as in the USA IMHO.... Nothing is perfect but they are working on it as to improve security and keeping a balanced attitude towards the operation and the threats. Things have come a long way since 2001 in that regard.
IMHO. Alien
For your information, Air marshalls flying on Canadian aircrafts are "real cops". Those trained professionnals are from the federal police corp: RCMP and I have no problem having them onboard my airplane. They are not the problem!
As for airport security itself, that is another can of worms... Guidance is federal, but application delegated to local airport authorities. Therefore, standards and procedures vary from an airport to another. As far as screening goes: a pain in the ass everywhere I've been in the country, but not as much as in the USA IMHO.... Nothing is perfect but they are working on it as to improve security and keeping a balanced attitude towards the operation and the threats. Things have come a long way since 2001 in that regard.
IMHO. Alien
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I beg to differ.
If someone comes to Canada as a refugee, they are not required to produce any evidence of their real identity. They can then get an airprt airside badge based on the name they gave immigration at the time they arrived. CSIS and the RCMP then do their checks based on that name. If osama was working at security in Pearson, you wouldn't know it.
The airport authority hires these idiots because they are cheap.
When we can't spare real police for the vast number of flights going over the 'states from Canada, the cost cutters will go to subcontractors to fill the places. They will need people with 'security clearance' and guess where they will go. Yes, the same subcontractors that run 'security ' at the moment.
They are not 'working on' the situation .
They are waiting and doing nothing.
Soon, there will be subcontractor skymarshals. We don't know who they are, and I will not fly with them unless I see a Real police identity.
Cheers
If someone comes to Canada as a refugee, they are not required to produce any evidence of their real identity. They can then get an airprt airside badge based on the name they gave immigration at the time they arrived. CSIS and the RCMP then do their checks based on that name. If osama was working at security in Pearson, you wouldn't know it.
The airport authority hires these idiots because they are cheap.
When we can't spare real police for the vast number of flights going over the 'states from Canada, the cost cutters will go to subcontractors to fill the places. They will need people with 'security clearance' and guess where they will go. Yes, the same subcontractors that run 'security ' at the moment.
They are not 'working on' the situation .
They are waiting and doing nothing.
Soon, there will be subcontractor skymarshals. We don't know who they are, and I will not fly with them unless I see a Real police identity.
Cheers