Commands Direct Entry
Commands Direct Entry
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 224
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From: Pompano Beach,FL- USA
My only question about Emirates or anybody is whether you have to be able to spell CAPTAIN to be one. <bfg>....
And specifically on Emirates,why WOULDN'T they hire hire direct entry Captains on 777s or any airplane IF they needed them? If you need pilots, why not hire them? Just to make someone sit in the right seat for XXX hours or XXX years seems foolish. I am sure those in the right seat want to upgrade when they can,but any company's management makes that decision.
And specifically on Emirates,why WOULDN'T they hire hire direct entry Captains on 777s or any airplane IF they needed them? If you need pilots, why not hire them? Just to make someone sit in the right seat for XXX hours or XXX years seems foolish. I am sure those in the right seat want to upgrade when they can,but any company's management makes that decision.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
From: FL410 (if she's light enough)
Have to agree with Speedbrake, I think EK should honour it's seniority lists. Too many guys have made huge sacrifices to join EK as F/O's when they were skippers for years with other airlines.
Get your planning right guys and honour your own pilots who have built your airline.
Snails
Get your planning right guys and honour your own pilots who have built your airline.
Snails
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: sunny country
Keep your pilots happy and reduce the number of high drag appraoches from 25nm!
Hey speed, are Emirates captains unhappy as well and therefore they'll permit such approaches supporting co-pilots complaints?
Hey speed, are Emirates captains unhappy as well and therefore they'll permit such approaches supporting co-pilots complaints?
Joined: Nov 2001
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 541
Likes: 0
From: Not sure now
Jim said:
Jim, I'm guessing you were with United or some other U.S. major. In any event a company with a relatively stable seniority system. How would you feel if your previous airline decided to hire direct entry 747 captains ? That wouldn't go over real well would it ?
A better example would be jetBlue, an airline that is expanding rapidly and has hired many low time - just out of the military - guys with no airline experience yet still upgraded them in just over a year with no known problems. Emirates has been hiring very experienced airline pilots with well over 5000 hours in most cases yet they aren't willing to give them a chance to upgrade before bringing in direct entry captains. Maybe that is what you meant by that middle sentence, it is foolish to make guys sit in the right seat for xxx hours or xxx years prior to an upgrade. A good training department would easily be able to take Emirates current F.O.s and turn them into good captains, even the ones who have only been at Emirates for a year or two.
Typhoonpilot
And specifically on Emirates,why WOULDN'T they hire hire direct entry Captains on 777s or any airplane IF they needed them? If you need pilots, why not hire them? Just to make someone sit in the right seat for XXX hours or XXX years seems foolish. I am sure those in the right seat want to upgrade when they can,but any company's management makes that decision.
A better example would be jetBlue, an airline that is expanding rapidly and has hired many low time - just out of the military - guys with no airline experience yet still upgraded them in just over a year with no known problems. Emirates has been hiring very experienced airline pilots with well over 5000 hours in most cases yet they aren't willing to give them a chance to upgrade before bringing in direct entry captains. Maybe that is what you meant by that middle sentence, it is foolish to make guys sit in the right seat for xxx hours or xxx years prior to an upgrade. A good training department would easily be able to take Emirates current F.O.s and turn them into good captains, even the ones who have only been at Emirates for a year or two.
Typhoonpilot
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 113
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From: sandbox
I have to agree with TYPHOONPILOT on this one. If you were qualified to be hired as a First Officer with 5000 hours, then you are, after a year, qualified for command. No airline hires First Officers intending them to be First Officers forever. A good Recruitment staff knows if you will not be fit for command, and you will never be hired in the first place.
A good training department can take a First Officer with one year and qualify them for command so long a reqruitment is hiring qualified applicants. I can tell you that the people I know who have been hired by EK in the last year, would all make great Captains. They should be given the opportunity before any DEC is hired. I have always read on this forum that EK takes care of it's people and now is not the time change that policy!
A good training department can take a First Officer with one year and qualify them for command so long a reqruitment is hiring qualified applicants. I can tell you that the people I know who have been hired by EK in the last year, would all make great Captains. They should be given the opportunity before any DEC is hired. I have always read on this forum that EK takes care of it's people and now is not the time change that policy!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: Pompano Beach,FL- USA
To the previous postings.....
I am NOT in disagreement with your postings at All! I would not like to be on a seniority list and do my job, play the game and get passed over. And I think people with qualifications and hours can do just fine. But promotion without a strict seniority list is in the eyes of the beholder.
My only observation and comment is why ANY carrier would say"to be considered for promotion (or command) one must have XXX years or XXX hours". That seems foolish.
The truth is many people and PPRUNE readers have NO idea who is going to this carrier or that carrier or what their qualifications are.
So when ANY carrier can't get (whether imagined or not) people to upgraded, they go to the outside. In the case of Emirates, their web site clearly says that you will be a F/O as an initial hire. No problem with that at all if that is the stated policy. In fact, I don't even think their application would allow one to say,"I wanna be a Captain"!
It's just hard to hit the middle of the runway from the right seat when you have been flying from the left <bfg>!
BTW, it sounds like Dubai is like Taipei without the humidity!!!! Abu Dahbi was not exactly like a charming resort in August when I was there. There are better months there, aren't there???
I am NOT in disagreement with your postings at All! I would not like to be on a seniority list and do my job, play the game and get passed over. And I think people with qualifications and hours can do just fine. But promotion without a strict seniority list is in the eyes of the beholder.
My only observation and comment is why ANY carrier would say"to be considered for promotion (or command) one must have XXX years or XXX hours". That seems foolish.
The truth is many people and PPRUNE readers have NO idea who is going to this carrier or that carrier or what their qualifications are.
So when ANY carrier can't get (whether imagined or not) people to upgraded, they go to the outside. In the case of Emirates, their web site clearly says that you will be a F/O as an initial hire. No problem with that at all if that is the stated policy. In fact, I don't even think their application would allow one to say,"I wanna be a Captain"!
It's just hard to hit the middle of the runway from the right seat when you have been flying from the left <bfg>!
BTW, it sounds like Dubai is like Taipei without the humidity!!!! Abu Dahbi was not exactly like a charming resort in August when I was there. There are better months there, aren't there???
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
From: here
This is how it is, Direct Entry - possible certainty!! EK say you need 10,000hrs,3000hrs wide-body command directly preceeding joining EK plus a few other things. Now for accelerated command you have to have over 8000hrs ,2000hrs command on a/c over 55t directly before. This just changed over night with no consultation so lots of guys here who had previous commands on 757/767/A320 plus bigger a/c who thought they were on accelerated are now not!!
It seems that Emirates would rather take pilots from outside the company of whom it has little or no previous knowledge of, they have no proven simulator/training reports on, people they don't know and who also don't know any of the company rules and regs rather than upgrading current on type first officers who have decided to come out to the desert , who have proven track records with EK , who have had previous commands and have lots of genuine experience and who know the company rules and regs ( and believe me there are lots)
..................does it make sense??????
It seems that Emirates would rather take pilots from outside the company of whom it has little or no previous knowledge of, they have no proven simulator/training reports on, people they don't know and who also don't know any of the company rules and regs rather than upgrading current on type first officers who have decided to come out to the desert , who have proven track records with EK , who have had previous commands and have lots of genuine experience and who know the company rules and regs ( and believe me there are lots)
..................does it make sense??????
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 259
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From: here
I wait with eager anticipation for the reaction of the Ek pilots at their meeting on 29/9 - please update us as to what the EK management have to say, hopefully all those guys who are thinking about DECs and going to Dubai will think twice!!!!
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 846
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From: UK
mini cooper Don't be naive. Any Captain applying to EK who thinks this is the job for him is not going to put off by knowing that there are some disgruntled F/O's about. Any of these who bring their problems into the Flightdeck will face a career going nowhere.
Aviation is all about being in the right place at the right time or vice versa and it has always been thus.
Aviation is all about being in the right place at the right time or vice versa and it has always been thus.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 117
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From: London
There are some very powerful assessment tools available to EK in order to choose F/Os suitable for upgrade. Instead they fall back on arbitrary hours requirements. Not very scientific, not very effective, and detrimental to the overall aim.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 224
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From: Pompano Beach,FL- USA
The last few postings have been right. I am not sure that you are in nor should be in an argument with each other. Upgrading or not upgrading people is all subjective and difficult at best.
Most professional pilots can succeed anywhere they go.
Most professional pilots can succeed anywhere they go.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 87
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Totally agree Jim.
I have worked for two companies in 15 years and both my interviews were by Chief Pilots/Fleet Managers.
The assessment as to my suitability (and many other pilots suitability) was achieved with a 40 minute interview and nothing else. I could tell by looking around me (and subsequently as a Training Captain) that those senior managers chose well with very few mistakes.
Life is strange. A couple of unsuccessful applications I have made to other airlines in that time (involving lots of assessment stages) has included being interviewed by ex cabin crew and fairly junior first officers.
I wonder who got it right.
I have worked for two companies in 15 years and both my interviews were by Chief Pilots/Fleet Managers.
The assessment as to my suitability (and many other pilots suitability) was achieved with a 40 minute interview and nothing else. I could tell by looking around me (and subsequently as a Training Captain) that those senior managers chose well with very few mistakes.
Life is strange. A couple of unsuccessful applications I have made to other airlines in that time (involving lots of assessment stages) has included being interviewed by ex cabin crew and fairly junior first officers.
I wonder who got it right.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Dusti Bottom
All very interesting
What folk have to know is that there are a good number of F/Os in Emirates that have a huge wealth of experience prior to joining. They have had previous command time on relevant types and others have thousands of hours on Emirates specific types and are familiar with Emirate's present and future route structure.
It is a sad reflection on Emirates "highly acclaimed" training system that it cannot upgrade these guys in preference to some total outsiders who have no knowledge of Emirates SOPs and structure. After all if you can't turn command-potential F/Os in 1 1/2 - 3 years into suitable Captains then what chance do you have with totally unknown pilots in a couple of months.
I have been in the industry long enough to know that there is precious little difference experience wise between a 6000 hr and 10000 hr pilot after all.
Worth a thought eh?
What folk have to know is that there are a good number of F/Os in Emirates that have a huge wealth of experience prior to joining. They have had previous command time on relevant types and others have thousands of hours on Emirates specific types and are familiar with Emirate's present and future route structure.
It is a sad reflection on Emirates "highly acclaimed" training system that it cannot upgrade these guys in preference to some total outsiders who have no knowledge of Emirates SOPs and structure. After all if you can't turn command-potential F/Os in 1 1/2 - 3 years into suitable Captains then what chance do you have with totally unknown pilots in a couple of months.
I have been in the industry long enough to know that there is precious little difference experience wise between a 6000 hr and 10000 hr pilot after all.
Worth a thought eh?
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Scrod,
You can tell us all about it when you have the relevant experience...10 to 15,000 hours, for example.
Us 20,000+ hour guys know all too well that 6,000 ain't much, especially for training Captains, as EK has opted for, as a prefered Commander applicant.
Nice try though....
You can tell us all about it when you have the relevant experience...10 to 15,000 hours, for example.
Us 20,000+ hour guys know all too well that 6,000 ain't much, especially for training Captains, as EK has opted for, as a prefered Commander applicant.
Nice try though....