Pilot suffers cardiac arrest in flight
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Flare and fly - I tend to hold your position that some of these guys get settled in, no body cares how fat or sick they are, and these guys will do anything to keep their jobs.
My own experience has seen the following -
A guy that flew across the country for his medical, to go to one specific doctor...this is a guy that couldn't fly in a cabin above 6ft and resulting in him flying at stupid low levels, burning way to much fuel, and flying on fumes many times.
A guy that never got a first class med because 'sending the EKG data to the FAA many times are a mistake'..so you have an overweight 65 year old guy, with high blood pressure, running on a 2nd class, probably taking something prior to the medical to game his medical into the proper territory.
This is all about holding standards. You either care about the passengers, safety, and professionalism, or you don't, where it's just a paycheck, a title, an easy job, or whatever.
Whatever the case, 300 lb pilots shouldn't be flying planes.
My own experience has seen the following -
A guy that flew across the country for his medical, to go to one specific doctor...this is a guy that couldn't fly in a cabin above 6ft and resulting in him flying at stupid low levels, burning way to much fuel, and flying on fumes many times.
A guy that never got a first class med because 'sending the EKG data to the FAA many times are a mistake'..so you have an overweight 65 year old guy, with high blood pressure, running on a 2nd class, probably taking something prior to the medical to game his medical into the proper territory.
This is all about holding standards. You either care about the passengers, safety, and professionalism, or you don't, where it's just a paycheck, a title, an easy job, or whatever.
Whatever the case, 300 lb pilots shouldn't be flying planes.
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I know plenty of fine pilots who are a bit overweight and they pass their medicals with no problem
if you want supermen flying the plane, fine...use US NAVY and Air Force requirements
no glasses
nothing wrong
perfect everything
and some of you 38 year olds won't pass
I just read of a student athlete who died at practice, even having done an ekg...cardiac arrest
have a checkup before you fly...no cold, no nothing perfection...no pilots then, no one is perfect
we don't know anything about this guy from official sources
lets wait
if you want supermen flying the plane, fine...use US NAVY and Air Force requirements
no glasses
nothing wrong
perfect everything
and some of you 38 year olds won't pass
I just read of a student athlete who died at practice, even having done an ekg...cardiac arrest
have a checkup before you fly...no cold, no nothing perfection...no pilots then, no one is perfect
we don't know anything about this guy from official sources
lets wait
.
How do you know ? (unless something's been said earlier, and I regret I haven't time to read all again ?)
He might have actually enjoyed his work - I certainly did and would willingly have gone on to 65 if that had been the rule then, and as the wife of one of my colleagues remarked - " I married him for better or worse, not breakfast, lunch AND bloody dinner ! "
........Just to make that extra few bucks........
He might have actually enjoyed his work - I certainly did and would willingly have gone on to 65 if that had been the rule then, and as the wife of one of my colleagues remarked - " I married him for better or worse, not breakfast, lunch AND bloody dinner ! "
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few extra bucks
...many pilots would have retired earlier than 60, let alone 65 IF THEIR PENSIONS HAD REMAINED INTACT
9/11 destroyed many airlines and bankruptcy courts allowed termination of pension plans
many of my friends should have retired at 132k per year, plus health, travel etc.
but now, the going rate is 45k...the pension guaranty boys won't pay full pensions.
so...won't you get rid of old farts by paying the pensions they should have had??????????????
...many pilots would have retired earlier than 60, let alone 65 IF THEIR PENSIONS HAD REMAINED INTACT
9/11 destroyed many airlines and bankruptcy courts allowed termination of pension plans
many of my friends should have retired at 132k per year, plus health, travel etc.
but now, the going rate is 45k...the pension guaranty boys won't pay full pensions.
so...won't you get rid of old farts by paying the pensions they should have had??????????????
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I was wondering about medicals in different countries and if they are the same as ours. We have this method of scoring you points on your 40th birthday and subsequently every five years there after, then every year after 60.
If you score over 14 points you require a stress ECG (EKG). The points are allocated starting with gender and age, the points increase as you get older. The rest are to do with BP, total cholesterol, HDL cholesterol, smoking and diabetes. At 62 a male starts with 15 points and so unless the other markers are excellent, then it is a stress ECG (EKG) for you.
Does your medical system have something similar?
If you score over 14 points you require a stress ECG (EKG). The points are allocated starting with gender and age, the points increase as you get older. The rest are to do with BP, total cholesterol, HDL cholesterol, smoking and diabetes. At 62 a male starts with 15 points and so unless the other markers are excellent, then it is a stress ECG (EKG) for you.
Does your medical system have something similar?
Last edited by Offchocks; 28th Sep 2013 at 23:15.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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BMI - reliable?
If it weren't for ALPA and the cheap airline companies, BMI would be a big deal, as it should be.
Last edited by parabellum; 28th Sep 2013 at 23:43.
BMI is a waste of time. I work with a shortish guy who goes to the gym four days a week and concentrates on strength, as a result he is very broad and very heavy. He would not fare well on the BmI test. I imagine he would fail yet he is very health conscious.
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framer:
I brought up BMI as one indicator. I said nothing about, by itself, being a pass or fail indicator.
BMI is a waste of time. I work with a shortish guy who goes to the gym four days a week and concentrates on strength, as a result he is very broad and very heavy. He would not fare well on the BmI test. I imagine he would fail yet he is very health conscious.
Last edited by aterpster; 29th Sep 2013 at 01:16.
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Does your medical system have something similar?
I'm 61, bmi of 27.
Edited to add: I was upset about this at the time, but when I passed with flying colors I felt better about it. The heart doctor told me that the FAA stress test is the most 'stressful' one that he gives. He told me a lot of truck drivers come in for the same test, but their test isn't as 'stressful'.
Last edited by JimNtexas; 29th Sep 2013 at 01:21.
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Originally Posted by aterpstr
A stress EKG on this poor chap would have undoubtedly found him in the cath lab having an angiogram.
The standard or requirements in Aus could be different to the US but I'd be surprised if they're that different.
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Capt Caret I don't think BMI contributes to the requirement for a stress ECG, unless there is something else that triggered it and CASA became "interested".
I just turned 62, I guess I am about the same weight as you and have done my first stress ECG, the age points got me as everything else was normal. To be honest it was a piece of cake, the only thing that was stressful was the the name "Stress ECG".
I just turned 62, I guess I am about the same weight as you and have done my first stress ECG, the age points got me as everything else was normal. To be honest it was a piece of cake, the only thing that was stressful was the the name "Stress ECG".
Last edited by Offchocks; 29th Sep 2013 at 04:40.
Fox News has a picture of the pilot - he was definitely a big guy, but didn't appear to be 'fat' - overweight perhaps but not 'fat'.
There is a big difference between 300 lbs. on a 6' 6" frame - especially if it's an active person, and 300 lbs. on a 5' 6" couch potato.
I'm not a fitness freak, but I've exercised regularly 4 to 5 times a week since my early 20's. Yet I had a heart attack 15 years ago - I was 42 at the time. My lower center cardiac artery was completely blocked (I was apparently really lucky - a physicians assistant buddy told me they call that "The Widow Maker" - it's usually fatal). I wasn't overweight, didn't smoke (it was almost funny - in the hospital they just assumed I was a smoker - an apparently fit guy having a heart attack at 42. When asked how much I smoked I said I didn't, nurse asked when I quit and I said I never started - the nurse just looked at me funny like I must be lying).
Angioplasty and a stint, back at work a week later with a newfound respect for modern medicine. A week after that I did a stress test and the cardiologist pronounced my heart just fine.
Due to an international assignment, between Boeing and my person doctor I'd had 5 physicals over the previous 4 years - none had noted anything abnormal with my heart.
Sometimes
just happens. 
There is a big difference between 300 lbs. on a 6' 6" frame - especially if it's an active person, and 300 lbs. on a 5' 6" couch potato.
I'm not a fitness freak, but I've exercised regularly 4 to 5 times a week since my early 20's. Yet I had a heart attack 15 years ago - I was 42 at the time. My lower center cardiac artery was completely blocked (I was apparently really lucky - a physicians assistant buddy told me they call that "The Widow Maker" - it's usually fatal). I wasn't overweight, didn't smoke (it was almost funny - in the hospital they just assumed I was a smoker - an apparently fit guy having a heart attack at 42. When asked how much I smoked I said I didn't, nurse asked when I quit and I said I never started - the nurse just looked at me funny like I must be lying).
Angioplasty and a stint, back at work a week later with a newfound respect for modern medicine. A week after that I did a stress test and the cardiologist pronounced my heart just fine.
Due to an international assignment, between Boeing and my person doctor I'd had 5 physicals over the previous 4 years - none had noted anything abnormal with my heart.
Sometimes
just happens.
The colleagues I knew who were fitness freaks in their youth, i.e. 10 BX, jogging and the like when they were invented, all died young of heart failure.
One lost his licence for awhile because he had something called an inverted T wave on his ECG, and 'til it was discovered that this is the mark of super, Olympic standard, athletes he was grounded. He got his licence back eventually and is still alive, tho' the Cardio reading the subject ECG was almost ready to call the undertaker.
A recent NZ CAA Medic.,young, female, ( fact, not bigotry ) and recently out of University and big in computer analysis programmes, decided that no-one should be allowed to fly if they had more than a 5% chance of having a heart problem in the next 5 years. For awhile this became known as the 1% rule, i.e. 5% in 5 years = 1% in 1 year. Jeez .... everybody walking around has at least a 1% chance, and this just about grounded every pilot in NZ, including Air New Zealand airline. Fortunately sense prevailed - eventually. Said female no longer works for the NZ CAA.
A Flt.Eng. once told me that the medical profession change their minds every 5 years or so, and when they decided that sitting on the couch drinking beer and eating potato crisps ( chips ) was the way to go, he was way ahead of them. When we reached our destination I asked him what he was going to do for the rest of the day ? Go to the bar first and then practice some IFR, he said. IFR ? Yes, climb to and maintain 3 feet, horizontal.
He's still alive.
I had a friend who was a dietician, and her hospital had a 3 year old child brought in for care and attention following a marital upset. The child wouldn't eat anything,and after awhile the staff got concerned and asked the father - who had custody - what he had been feeding his son? The father explained that when his wife had walked out, he had no option but to take the child with him to work - as a long distance lorry driver, and when he stopped at truck stops for a meal he gave the child the same fare - Guinness and Fish & Chips.
Shock horror !! You can't feed a child on that, they said, but in view of the lack of appetite displayed, they want out and bought an order of Fish and Chips and a bottle of Guinness. The childs' eyes lit up and he tucked into this first meal for a long time with gusto.
Then the lab. got to analysing the food, and decided that the child had had a balanced diet - iron in the Guinness, vitamin C in the fried fish, bulk stuff in the French Fried chips etc. etc. and certainly he wasn't seriously undernourished.
Way to go !
One lost his licence for awhile because he had something called an inverted T wave on his ECG, and 'til it was discovered that this is the mark of super, Olympic standard, athletes he was grounded. He got his licence back eventually and is still alive, tho' the Cardio reading the subject ECG was almost ready to call the undertaker.
A recent NZ CAA Medic.,young, female, ( fact, not bigotry ) and recently out of University and big in computer analysis programmes, decided that no-one should be allowed to fly if they had more than a 5% chance of having a heart problem in the next 5 years. For awhile this became known as the 1% rule, i.e. 5% in 5 years = 1% in 1 year. Jeez .... everybody walking around has at least a 1% chance, and this just about grounded every pilot in NZ, including Air New Zealand airline. Fortunately sense prevailed - eventually. Said female no longer works for the NZ CAA.
A Flt.Eng. once told me that the medical profession change their minds every 5 years or so, and when they decided that sitting on the couch drinking beer and eating potato crisps ( chips ) was the way to go, he was way ahead of them. When we reached our destination I asked him what he was going to do for the rest of the day ? Go to the bar first and then practice some IFR, he said. IFR ? Yes, climb to and maintain 3 feet, horizontal.
He's still alive.
I had a friend who was a dietician, and her hospital had a 3 year old child brought in for care and attention following a marital upset. The child wouldn't eat anything,and after awhile the staff got concerned and asked the father - who had custody - what he had been feeding his son? The father explained that when his wife had walked out, he had no option but to take the child with him to work - as a long distance lorry driver, and when he stopped at truck stops for a meal he gave the child the same fare - Guinness and Fish & Chips.
Shock horror !! You can't feed a child on that, they said, but in view of the lack of appetite displayed, they want out and bought an order of Fish and Chips and a bottle of Guinness. The childs' eyes lit up and he tucked into this first meal for a long time with gusto.
Then the lab. got to analysing the food, and decided that the child had had a balanced diet - iron in the Guinness, vitamin C in the fried fish, bulk stuff in the French Fried chips etc. etc. and certainly he wasn't seriously undernourished.
Way to go !
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 29th Sep 2013 at 07:24.
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I remember reading years ago, an interview with one of the Apollo astronauts. He was asked if he did much exercise. He replied along the lines of.
"I was born with a given amount of heart beats. I am damned if I am going to waste any working out in a gym".
I am also aware of someone who was a physical fitness fanatic and extremely fit. At 40 he had a triple bypass.
"I was born with a given amount of heart beats. I am damned if I am going to waste any working out in a gym".
I am also aware of someone who was a physical fitness fanatic and extremely fit. At 40 he had a triple bypass.
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I think that the BMI " one size fits all" in the UK if flawed.
Many years ago it was more sensible. My GP had three tables for BMI.
He measured my wrist and then selected the appropriate table to give me my BMI reading.
The wrist reading was a good indicator of bone structure.
I know I could do with loosing some weight but the present UK BMI test gives a much more favourable result . Why? I have small hands, feet, wrists plus thin arms so the BMI test ignores all these and boosts my " good" scoring.
Many years ago it was more sensible. My GP had three tables for BMI.
He measured my wrist and then selected the appropriate table to give me my BMI reading.
The wrist reading was a good indicator of bone structure.
I know I could do with loosing some weight but the present UK BMI test gives a much more favourable result . Why? I have small hands, feet, wrists plus thin arms so the BMI test ignores all these and boosts my " good" scoring.
Two colleagues of mine have had heart attacks in recent years. Thankfully they both survived and are lucky to have been treated quickly. One of them mentioned the "widow maker artery" and he was VERY lucky. Now their doctors have said they are as fit as ever. Neither of them, IMHO, looked remotely obese and both looked after themselves.
My understanding of the pilot medical is that it is largely a snap shot. It does not mean that the AME will be able to detect an undiagnosed condition similar to those experienced by my colleagues.
As far as the comments regarding the particular pilot involved in this particular incident I think a little respect for this unfortunate chap is in order. Some of the comments are very insulting and irrelevant to the thread.
My understanding of the pilot medical is that it is largely a snap shot. It does not mean that the AME will be able to detect an undiagnosed condition similar to those experienced by my colleagues.
As far as the comments regarding the particular pilot involved in this particular incident I think a little respect for this unfortunate chap is in order. Some of the comments are very insulting and irrelevant to the thread.
It's sad news but given the amount of pilots in the air around the globe at any one time, statistically it's going to happen with a certain regularity.
As others have pointed out, some things can be screened for or the risks reduced by a particular lifestyle but some are beyond present predictive science. It's why we have redundancy in the crew over a certain size of aircraft as well as redundancy in the systems.
The 'plane was put safely on the ground, unfortunately one of the pilots didn't make it. From the passengers point-of-view, that worked.
There are many things that can seriously affect your performance to the point that you might as well be dead, like food poisoning, allergic reactions, appendicitis, etc. They can happen to anyone of any age or level of fitness. Changing medical requirements is not going improve anything for this group, which probably accounts for the vast majority of in-flight incapacitations.
As others have pointed out, some things can be screened for or the risks reduced by a particular lifestyle but some are beyond present predictive science. It's why we have redundancy in the crew over a certain size of aircraft as well as redundancy in the systems.
The 'plane was put safely on the ground, unfortunately one of the pilots didn't make it. From the passengers point-of-view, that worked.
There are many things that can seriously affect your performance to the point that you might as well be dead, like food poisoning, allergic reactions, appendicitis, etc. They can happen to anyone of any age or level of fitness. Changing medical requirements is not going improve anything for this group, which probably accounts for the vast majority of in-flight incapacitations.
All fair comments. However; Being obese is a very real health issue, and it is totally preventable.
A doctor friend of mine said that fat on the belly has a very poor prognosis. As fat builds up around the body, it also builds up inside the blood vessels. This can cause many problems such as heart failure, stroke and organ failure. Why would anyone risk doing that much damage to themselves?
A pilot is required to have a certain (good) level of fitness so that the chances of their body failing is low. It is not an exact science yet - genetics are involved, and a thin person is not immune from cardiac arrest - but being obese can definitely cause one.
Day to day flying is relatively low stress, but when problems occur such as EFATO, rapid depressurisation, diversion on low fuel, etc. the stress increases rapidly. If one is fit, then stress can be endured, but if one is unfit, one's stress threshold is much lower.
(Mr Swarzenegger had a heart valve operation some years ago, so a body weight of 245 lbs might have been too much for him?)
The BMI system is not a perfect measure of a persons fitness - it doesn't take the percentage of body fat and muscle into account, but it is a good starting point.
What I don't understand is how these folk get through their Class 1's - we are all weighed as part of our medicals.
A doctor friend of mine said that fat on the belly has a very poor prognosis. As fat builds up around the body, it also builds up inside the blood vessels. This can cause many problems such as heart failure, stroke and organ failure. Why would anyone risk doing that much damage to themselves?
A pilot is required to have a certain (good) level of fitness so that the chances of their body failing is low. It is not an exact science yet - genetics are involved, and a thin person is not immune from cardiac arrest - but being obese can definitely cause one.
Day to day flying is relatively low stress, but when problems occur such as EFATO, rapid depressurisation, diversion on low fuel, etc. the stress increases rapidly. If one is fit, then stress can be endured, but if one is unfit, one's stress threshold is much lower.
(Mr Swarzenegger had a heart valve operation some years ago, so a body weight of 245 lbs might have been too much for him?)
The BMI system is not a perfect measure of a persons fitness - it doesn't take the percentage of body fat and muscle into account, but it is a good starting point.
What I don't understand is how these folk get through their Class 1's - we are all weighed as part of our medicals.
Last edited by Uplinker; 29th Sep 2013 at 09:31.