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Statins - miracle or menace?

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Statins - miracle or menace?

Old 5th Dec 2012, 22:34
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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I was a great fan of Cochrane, they were one of the first to make an attempt to differentiate between the wheat and chaff.

However,

Reductions in all-cause mortality, major vascular events and revascularisations were found with no excess of cancers or muscle pain among people without evidence of cardiovascular disease treated with statins. Other potential adverse events were not reported and some trials included people with cardiovascular disease. Only limited evidence showed that primary prevention with statins may be cost effective and improve patient quality of life. Caution should be taken in prescribing statins for primary prevention among people at low cardiovascular risk
does seem a bit "woolly." It sounds like they're saying, "You may not live better (no change in morbidity) , but you may live longer (decrease in mortality). Cost effectiveness should be the worry of public health politicians () not the patient.

They are saying that at 10% risk, we'll corrupt the drugs budget.

Piccini et al (2009) says something slightly different, and may be worth a look.


The points about renal failure/liver problems/myalgia may be a little bit of a red herring, possibly inflamed by the media, although of course it's interesting to hear real life stories here.

Your strategy of getting re-tested in 6 months sounds reasonable. I only wish more of my patients were as enthusiastic. I'd be able to cure or control many ails, (eg hypertension, diabetes, dyspepsia....the list goes on), without resorting to the prescription pad.

Please let us know how you get on, and what worked.
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Old 6th Dec 2012, 00:30
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Gingernut

Sadly we the laymen are just as guilty waddling into your surgeries 5 stone too heavy, smoking, drinking, and abusing ourselves and demanding a pill to make us feel better?
The drug Barons only too happy to supply such pills.
oh for CURES for some of the terrible life destroying ailments we suffer but cures have to come from both the medical world and the Laymen.
Sadly Cures do not suit the Multi $billion drug Barons.
If a fraction of what is spent on discovering Cures than is spent on discovering and re packaging drugs where would we be now???
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Old 6th Dec 2012, 00:50
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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It's a very good point PACE. A good example is heartburn.

Back "in the day," if you had heartburn, you had 3 choices:

take a shed load of "rennies," that lasted 10 minutes or so,

have an operation, that had very high risk of killing you, (and generally didn't work), or

stop drinking 8 pints of "Stella" prior to a Chicken Ticka Jalfreizi.

Nowadays, it's easy to take Omeprazole. )

And I'm not preaching, we all do it. And it works.

Last edited by gingernut; 6th Dec 2012 at 09:35.
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Old 24th May 2013, 14:42
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Well, Gingernut, you asked a while ago how it turned out. Here is is.

History was- Cholesterol of 5.9.
Tried cutting out all saturated fat, severely.
Cholesterol hardly blinked - 5.8.

Conclusion? In my case, saturated fat consumption is not connected with Cholesterol.

Carried on as normal, Cholesterol of 7.2. Was told to go on statins. Refused.

Tried small weight loss, (circa 2kg), plus cutting out a lot of sugar, plus Flora Pro-active Buttery (which tastes less like diesel than the rest).

Cholesterol of 4.7. You can keep your statins.

Conclusions?

Saturated fat consumption is irrelevant in my case.
Don't decide on a lifetime of medication on one or two blood samples.
Maybe the Flora stuff works.

Now where are all the pies?
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Old 25th May 2013, 23:18
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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gingernut

.....but not without side-effects;

Side effects of omeprazole - Indigestion and excess acid - NHS Choices
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 08:48
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Another Claim against Statin use

Statins And Exercise Combined 'Decompose' Your Muscles

Dear Reader,

If your doctor is someone you can trust then he or she will strongly advise you not to do any exercise once you start taking a cholesterol-lowering statin drug... Then again, if your doctor really is someone you can trust, you wouldn't have been given a statin drug in the first place.

Oh the irony...

I know it makes no sense. Especially if you are worried about your heart health and you know you need to stay fit and active. But if you are taking statins the best thing you can do to prevent permanent damage to your muscles is to NOT exercise.

That's no going to the gym, no sit-ups, push-ups, no cardiovascular exercise or swimming... not even a brisk walk.

In short – don't exercise.

That's because if you take the world's most popular drug AND exercise, you could end up side-lined with debilitating weakness for the rest of your life.

For years now, we've known that statin drugs can cause muscle pain and fatigue. These are actually symptoms of your muscle tissue decomposing.

Now, that's horrific enough to make anyone avoid this drug. But it gets worse. Because there's one factor that dramatically increases the risk of muscle damage… Exercise.

In a new trial, researchers confirm this exercise danger.

Patients who were overweight began regular exercise and significantly improved their aerobic fitness in three months. Another group followed the same regimen. But they took a statin drug. Their aerobic fitness barely improved at all.

Amazingly — after weeks of supervised exercise — aerobic capacity actually DROPPED in some of the statin users.

Results on the cellular level were even worse. Health of muscle cells improved significantly in the exercise/no-statins group. But muscle cell health took a dangerous nosedive in the statins group.

The irony is appalling! Exercise alone reduces cholesterol and improves heart health. And statins don't effectively lower cholesterol unless you also exercise.

But combine the two and you'll be in grave danger.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 09:40
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Well said. But the Pharmaceutical Industry making billions out of this miserable drug and somehow pursuading the Medical Profession to prescribe (I wonder how ?) ! On this open public forum, I sense the balance moving away from favour. Delighted. Mate of mine, referred to in previous posts ditched the poorly prescribed drug down the toilet. Mediterranean diet, walks rather drives up to the shops, stairs rather than lifts, fortunate to swim in his own pool throughout the summer, moderation in drinking habits, and, good grief, he looks better than I have ever seen him.

Medics, only a slight slap on the wrist. Drugs are an important part of your armoury & many of us would not be here today without your care & attention. Thank you. But, ditch this horrible medicine. Look at your providers, resist the cruise, free golf-club memebership,office wall clock etc and, as we say in France...........'Just say non !' !
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 08:22
  #148 (permalink)  
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Ditching drugs down the toilet, literally, is not really sporting for those further downstream in the sewage processing passage, let alone the lobsters and crabs which lurk at sewage outlets and those who gorge upon their carcasses at great expense and sometime risk.
The statin argument rages and those on 40mg a day may sense a conflict of healthy interest. Those on a statin dose of 5mg or even 10mg a day perhaps more readily fall into the preventative category rather then the curative one.
A stroke may ensure free wheelchair transport for the remainder of one's life but the short sombre journey in a hearse is probably more to the liking of most of us?
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Old 30th Jun 2013, 10:03
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Amusing post cavortingcheetah and succint. In reply to your closing question..........YES ! In fact, can't wait. Have Near Death Experiences most nights but as I venture towards the light, always turned back my Aunty Stella ! Mind you, these modern wheelchairs with alloys, Capt Kirk chair, high speed option do look a lot of fun . Back on thread, I know Slowjet & his mate. The latter was prescribed 80mg per day. Could that be the reason for his near death experience in a crew hotel ? Just spoken to him & he apologises for ditchimg the drugs down the toilet.
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Old 30th Jun 2013, 10:51
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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what is it in eyes, veins or arteries? I'll call them thingies.

anyway many years ago I was getting glasses sorted out and having a talk to the optometrist who was also a pilot.
while he was measuring things he went quiet. "gees mate you've got silver wire thingies you'd better get that sorted out."
so off I went and got a checkup and was prescribed a statin. it reacted badly with my bod, felt like knitting needles being poked into my liver. doc changed the prescription to ruovustatin which I have been on now for quite a few years.
last glasses redo I asked my (different) optometrist about my silver wire thingies. after a few minutes of peering around he sat back and said "if you ever had it you certainly dont have it now."

ymmv but I weigh in on the side of statins. the little buggers have worked for me.
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Old 11th Jul 2013, 19:56
  #151 (permalink)  
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Last annual medical, my doctor found my HDL+LDL cholesterol was high.

No he said, I never prescribe statins. Ever.

What you do is take one Red Rice Yeast Tablet and one Danecol/Benecol anti-cholesterol yoghurt every day.

Result following six months of doing this:

Before was 273mg/100ml.

After is 190mg/100ml.

Normal range is between 130 and 220 mg/100ml.
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 10:49
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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statins worrying research on memory loss

Is your statin affecting your memory? Study finds some common brands can affect brain function | Mail Online
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 13:24
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Pace

Statins seem to bugging you given your previous posts. Like anything in medicine you will find hundreds if not thousands of research articles of differing quality and need to look at the overall picture.

The reality is that there is some evidence statins reduce the deposition of amyloid which correlates with the commoner forms of Alzheimer's. there are many papers relating to this although the level of evidence is such that we would not prescribe statins for this reason.

Statins also clearly reduce the incidence of cerebral vascular incidents - strokes to you and me - which are your real brain risk.

This is a single study reported in that reliable medical journal the Daily Mail involving, er, rats. Even the Mail's own article admits other professionals have imputed the findings.

I for one won't lose any sleep over this revelation
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 14:30
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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I certainly stopped Statins three years ago and feel the difference. It used to be that I could not remember all the digits of a frequency given, one or two digits seemed to 'disappear' from short term memory. I would sometimes go to the fridge and when there no longer know what I wanted. There are several links in this thread worth reading or watching.
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 17:04
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Redgirl

I Am against mass medication especially when there is a huge profit to be made by drug companies and other interested parties.

How many times have Doctors prescribed pills with re assurances that they are harmless or the better of two evils only to find a few years later that they cause terrible damage?

Sleeping pills are one example.

Ok if you have serious problems then yes the better of two evils comes into play but it worries me when some new money making drug is being pushed towards the over 50s many of whom are healthy individuals but the potential market is massive!

Statins are one drug which have a lot of adverse publicity and no smoke without fire?

Last edited by Pace; 26th Sep 2013 at 17:08.
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Old 26th Sep 2013, 21:36
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Statins are not new drugs and as such their patents have long expired. The generic drugs given out in the UK cost but pennies and make nobody fat profits. Yes you can still buy branded statins but GPs won't prescribe them as they get wrapped over the knuckles

This isn't about illness but about preventing early death in the well. Some statins are prescribed for the ill but what is so exciting is the ability to prevent early death in the healthy and allow these people to continue with a good quality of life

If we stopped using any drug or procedure due to an adverse paper as opposed to properly assessing the totality of research and its quality we would be back in the dark ages

Anyhow it is the individuals choice. If you don't want to take a statin nobody is going to force you. But it is interesting that so many doctors have decided otherwise and themselves take statins
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Old 2nd Oct 2013, 17:08
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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This isn't about illness but about preventing early death in the well.
Is It???? that is a very dangerous statement!!! medicating people on mass who are healthy with Statins which have such awful side effects might suit the pockets of the drug companies but no one else.

i am sure you heard the announcement in the media about the large American study involving 340,000 people it was all over uk television and radio today!

People with heart disease who took medication had the same life expectancy as those with heart disease on a controlled exercise regime.
When it came to strokes those on medication did not do so well as those on a controlled exercise regime.
those with strokes who purely exercised survived longer than the medicated patients.
Popping a pill while great for the drug companies $billions is not the answer to all ills.
the mass medication of healthy people with drugs we really do not know are safe is a very risky route to take.

(with an opinion but not medically qualified)

Last edited by Pace; 2nd Oct 2013 at 17:23.
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Old 2nd Oct 2013, 20:42
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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No Pace we are not mass medicating. We are offering the drugs and letting patients have a choice. You choose no, many doctors choose yes. The reason for medicating the healthy is that it keeps them healthy, and we dont accept the awful side effect argument except in a minute number of patients.

The study is interesting but off thread. It is looking at people who already have illness eg have had a stroke. We know exercise is important to these patients and I am not sure I am that surprised that exercise gives the same benefits as many drugs.However this wasnt a statin review but a review of lots of different drugs given for lots of reasons

The prediabetes is the exception and very interesting as there is independent research showing exercise reduces the lipids in the blood which are known to trigger type 2 diabetes., This is the first clear research showing taking up exercise may prevent diabetes developing.

So the answer is statins and exercise!
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Old 3rd Oct 2013, 00:26
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I suffered a TIA ( stroke ) four years ago and whilst in hospital I was prescribed Statins ( Simvastatin 40 mg tablet once daily ) My cholesterol had always been low and I asked my Consultant why I should take them and he said that they helped prevent Strokes even in the case's like mine with people with low Cholesterol, although the exact medical reason for their preventive nature was unknown.

Based on his advice I have continued to take them with no apparent side effects apart from slight muscle pain, although I was suffering from that before my illness in which case it was caused by the blood pressure tablets I had been taking for many years. Once my Doctor changed the tablets it went away ( It was very severe ) I don't feel inclined to start changing my tablets as it seems to me that over time that all blood pressure and Cholesterol tablets have some side effects and it is a case of putting up with what is now for me a minor discomfort as against their undoubted preventive benefits.
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Old 3rd Oct 2013, 09:53
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People, have a look at the "Type 2 Diabetes" thread.
Radgirl ; Bit of a wild assertion that the answer is "Statins AND exercise". Nope. Exercise, yes. Drop weight, particularly if it has formed round the gut,drop the sugar levels, moderate the drinking (high sugar levels), control diet ; go for the "mediterranean style diet" and pleeeeeze, ditch the dreadful statins altogether. Oh, and, research showing that a starvation programme, really, absolutely nothing for one day in seven is showing signs of reversing type 2 diabetes altogether .
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