Altitude sickness on mountains
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Altitude sickness on mountains
Just a quick question, being someone who spends most of their working day at around 8000ft "cabin altitude", do you think this would make me more adaptable to high altitude conditions on mountains?
Just looking for opinions, but if you could back it up with a source I would be even more greatful!
Just looking for opinions, but if you could back it up with a source I would be even more greatful!
Red On, Green On
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Wiki on the subject confirms that 8,000' cabin alt was chosen because very few will have any symptoms at that level. It's above 10,000' that healthy people start to see the effects in most cases.
EV
For me, it did not work out that way. Many years of 8000 ft cabin alt, then we went to Colorado for a ski trip at a resort that was a liitle over 10000 ft (Breckenridge) and the ski area went up to around 13000 ft. My wife and I had similar symptoms: both almost knackered by the time we had got the ski kit on and up to the lifts, but the skiing itself was no problem. We both had poor sleep, and headaches - not alcohol induced, either. Perhaps 2 weeks was not long enough to acclimatise.
But - everyone is different. That was just my experience.
For me, it did not work out that way. Many years of 8000 ft cabin alt, then we went to Colorado for a ski trip at a resort that was a liitle over 10000 ft (Breckenridge) and the ski area went up to around 13000 ft. My wife and I had similar symptoms: both almost knackered by the time we had got the ski kit on and up to the lifts, but the skiing itself was no problem. We both had poor sleep, and headaches - not alcohol induced, either. Perhaps 2 weeks was not long enough to acclimatise.
But - everyone is different. That was just my experience.
A visit to the Jungfraujoch (3475 metres (11,332 ft) above sea level) in Switzerland several years ago left me very groggy and dizzy and explained why on the way up I had noticed that everyone on the train going down the mountain was asleep ....
It cost a fortune then and I'm not spending silly money to feel so awful again!
It cost a fortune then and I'm not spending silly money to feel so awful again!
I am not an expert but acclimatisation requires you to live at altitude - normally above 10,000 ft - for several weeks. Intermittant depressurisation is unlikely to work regardless of altitude as the changes such as an increase in your haemaglobin / red cells are very slow
Younger people are more at risk than the elderly but it remains a bit of a lottery who becomes ill.
Younger people are more at risk than the elderly but it remains a bit of a lottery who becomes ill.
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Climbed Mt Warning in Norther NSW on Friday morning. at 3790ft Alt sickness was clearly never a threat, but my legs are in a very poor way....I expected them to be sore and stiff the following day, here we are 2 days later, and they're worse!
Could it be getting older? (Me not Mt Warning)......I'd thought I'd be a bit better today....I'm getting around like Frankenstein
Could it be getting older? (Me not Mt Warning)......I'd thought I'd be a bit better today....I'm getting around like Frankenstein
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I lived at 2100m (6900ft) last winter and went upto around 3100m (10,170ft) most days (best beer was at the top). Had the odd nose minor nose bleed for the first few weeks, but never felt unusually out of breath. Highest I have been is about 3600m (11,811ft) where I just felt blood cold!
EV,
Without knowing exactly what you have in mind I hope this is useful:-
To the best of my knowledge cabin altitudes will not trigger acclimatisation. You need to get to 10,000 feet (3,000m) and do exercise to even begin the process and more realistically go higher still. I have taken quite a lot of parties above 6000m and I found that for decently fit people any more than a day or so (two nights) at 3000m had negligible additional benefit (and in my experience the locals were not often better than the sealevel dwellers once the altitude got to 6000m). At each height you must do exercise to trigger the acclimatisation process - several hours walking is better than an evening run. This is not to say that you cannot get into difficulties lower down and medical (or expedition) textbooks will quote 8,000 feet as a trigger level because they are being cautious (so, sorry but you cannot just rely on a textbook).
In my experience most serious altitude sickness has a combination of HAPE and HACE although the textbooks deal with them as if they are binary. Stay well hydrated and take it easy at the beginning. Best to start your trip fit but chubby as you will burn off fat reserves quickly - the ones who start off as racing snakes tend to burn up. Try to descend for sleeping whilst acclimatising if you have the luxury. Stay alert to the symptoms - since one of the most useful common symptoms is a headache you should also avoid doing other things that may provoke a headache (so stay hydrated; use SF15+ suncream; wear sunspecs; use a sunhat; wear a collar/bandanna; sleeves; avoid getting the ****s) and try to stay away from the headache tablets. Tell other people about it early if you are feeling unwell so that they can keep an eye on you.
Anecdotal evidence is that once a person has had a HAPE or HACE experience then they are increasingly susceptible at lower altitudes (CE and PE can be gotten at sea level, the HA bit is optional !) and I knew one individual who eventually had to give up alpine holidays after initially contracting altitude sickness at 5000-6000m. Moral is always play it safe.
Indian Army etc has done lots of work on Diamox etc to aid acclimatisation (they have a need to be able to reinforce high altitude locations swiftly) but when I was last up to date on the subject (a decade ago) there was concern that Diamox might be masking the early onset symptoms rather than giving genuine acclimatisation advantage. Since time to react is at a premium anything that masks the symptoms is a no-no in my opinion. But the French and Russians used to swallow them like candy nonetheless.
Note that I am not a medic but have done a fair amount at altitude (>8000m, sans O2) including dealing with the unhappy consequences of folk that thought they knew it all and tried to prove it, or who got plain unlucky.
Hope this helps.
pp
Without knowing exactly what you have in mind I hope this is useful:-
To the best of my knowledge cabin altitudes will not trigger acclimatisation. You need to get to 10,000 feet (3,000m) and do exercise to even begin the process and more realistically go higher still. I have taken quite a lot of parties above 6000m and I found that for decently fit people any more than a day or so (two nights) at 3000m had negligible additional benefit (and in my experience the locals were not often better than the sealevel dwellers once the altitude got to 6000m). At each height you must do exercise to trigger the acclimatisation process - several hours walking is better than an evening run. This is not to say that you cannot get into difficulties lower down and medical (or expedition) textbooks will quote 8,000 feet as a trigger level because they are being cautious (so, sorry but you cannot just rely on a textbook).
In my experience most serious altitude sickness has a combination of HAPE and HACE although the textbooks deal with them as if they are binary. Stay well hydrated and take it easy at the beginning. Best to start your trip fit but chubby as you will burn off fat reserves quickly - the ones who start off as racing snakes tend to burn up. Try to descend for sleeping whilst acclimatising if you have the luxury. Stay alert to the symptoms - since one of the most useful common symptoms is a headache you should also avoid doing other things that may provoke a headache (so stay hydrated; use SF15+ suncream; wear sunspecs; use a sunhat; wear a collar/bandanna; sleeves; avoid getting the ****s) and try to stay away from the headache tablets. Tell other people about it early if you are feeling unwell so that they can keep an eye on you.
Anecdotal evidence is that once a person has had a HAPE or HACE experience then they are increasingly susceptible at lower altitudes (CE and PE can be gotten at sea level, the HA bit is optional !) and I knew one individual who eventually had to give up alpine holidays after initially contracting altitude sickness at 5000-6000m. Moral is always play it safe.
Indian Army etc has done lots of work on Diamox etc to aid acclimatisation (they have a need to be able to reinforce high altitude locations swiftly) but when I was last up to date on the subject (a decade ago) there was concern that Diamox might be masking the early onset symptoms rather than giving genuine acclimatisation advantage. Since time to react is at a premium anything that masks the symptoms is a no-no in my opinion. But the French and Russians used to swallow them like candy nonetheless.
Note that I am not a medic but have done a fair amount at altitude (>8000m, sans O2) including dealing with the unhappy consequences of folk that thought they knew it all and tried to prove it, or who got plain unlucky.
Hope this helps.
pp
Last edited by petit plateau; 29th Aug 2010 at 15:39.
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Sleeping at Extreme Altitude.
Can anyone explain to me why one has difficulty sleeping at extreme altitudes ? As I understand it Everest climbers must have a suppy of sleeping pills as part of their kit. I'm interested in the medical technical reasons that bring about the sleeplessness. Thanks,
Prince of Dzun.
Prince of Dzun.
"Can anyone explain to me why one has difficulty sleeping at extreme altitudes ? As I understand it Everest climbers must have a suppy of sleeping pills as part of their kit. I'm interested in the medical technical reasons that bring about the sleeplessness. "
Reasons for poor sleep at altitude include:
- cold, bloody difficult to sleep when cold;
- damp, especially as the sweat freezes;
- needing to pee, even if using a pee bottle;
- uncomfortable position (tilted on uneven ground);
- worry (high winds, avalanches, you name it).
In my experience it is easy to sleep in the sun during the day. Much less easy to sleep at night with all of the above. Even more difficult to get moving in the morning. None of the people I've ever climbed with used sleeping tablets at altitude and I certainly didn't even have them in my kit. However fitful sleep definitely is an issue at extreme altitude with the reduced oxygen content and you can read about the metabolic details in medical textbooks (there is more than one control pathway as a result of various bits of stranded evolutionary history; this is one of the reasons that HAPE/HACE exist). But even if the respiratory issues were not present the discomfort issues would probably be enough to cause poor sleep (you get the same issues in places such as Alaska where altitude is relatively trivial). Most clients are put on oxygen to get them through the night on Everest (funnily enough clients aren't as interested in the more difficult/dangerous/interesting but less well known peaks - the brag factor definitely motivates clients).
pp
Reasons for poor sleep at altitude include:
- cold, bloody difficult to sleep when cold;
- damp, especially as the sweat freezes;
- needing to pee, even if using a pee bottle;
- uncomfortable position (tilted on uneven ground);
- worry (high winds, avalanches, you name it).
In my experience it is easy to sleep in the sun during the day. Much less easy to sleep at night with all of the above. Even more difficult to get moving in the morning. None of the people I've ever climbed with used sleeping tablets at altitude and I certainly didn't even have them in my kit. However fitful sleep definitely is an issue at extreme altitude with the reduced oxygen content and you can read about the metabolic details in medical textbooks (there is more than one control pathway as a result of various bits of stranded evolutionary history; this is one of the reasons that HAPE/HACE exist). But even if the respiratory issues were not present the discomfort issues would probably be enough to cause poor sleep (you get the same issues in places such as Alaska where altitude is relatively trivial). Most clients are put on oxygen to get them through the night on Everest (funnily enough clients aren't as interested in the more difficult/dangerous/interesting but less well known peaks - the brag factor definitely motivates clients).
pp
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petit plateau;
Thanks a lot for your reply concerning my question about sleeping at extreme altitude. What you say makes sense. You obviously enjoy the heights so may I wish you much fun climbing. Regards,
Prince of Dzun.
Thanks a lot for your reply concerning my question about sleeping at extreme altitude. What you say makes sense. You obviously enjoy the heights so may I wish you much fun climbing. Regards,
Prince of Dzun.
