Sleep
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Asia
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sleep
With rosters getting worse and worse as time goes on, I thought I would start a topic where we could share tips on sleep. The obvious goal is to report for a duty period well rested. This involves forcing oneself to sleep at times when the body may not necessarily agree. How do you cope? Any tips would be much appreciated.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North America
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sleep
I found this recently:
http://www.herbs-hands-healing.co.uk.../insomnia.html
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
http://www.herbs-hands-healing.co.uk.../insomnia.html
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Psychophysiological entity
Due to being way out of phase sleep wise, I have recently resorted to Zolpidem, and not for the first time. I was really having problems with waking up about an hour after going to bed, and this drug was very good at zonking me within about 20 mins. In the short term, I could not detect any side effects.
I'm not flying now, and did not worry too much about using it rather a lot, however, the warnings about short term memory loss are IMO very real. You know, the ‘Why am I standing looking in this cupboard?' scenario.
Happily, the problem went away withing 48 hours of not using them.
I have mentioned using Vic Sinex to stop sleep apnea--and this has been very helpful--but again this is not to be used repeatedly. Now I take a drink and sit up all hours writing nonsense on Jet Blast. It works well, but is precisely what the average aircrew should not do.
I'm not flying now, and did not worry too much about using it rather a lot, however, the warnings about short term memory loss are IMO very real. You know, the ‘Why am I standing looking in this cupboard?' scenario.
Happily, the problem went away withing 48 hours of not using them.
I have mentioned using Vic Sinex to stop sleep apnea--and this has been very helpful--but again this is not to be used repeatedly. Now I take a drink and sit up all hours writing nonsense on Jet Blast. It works well, but is precisely what the average aircrew should not do.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wasn't it "Tamaze" or Tamazapan which was used extensively without bad side effects by aircrew during the Falklands war.
Valium is evidently habit forming.
USAF also have special medical aids to prolong alertness by the long haulers. Can anyone put a name to them ?
Valium is evidently habit forming.
USAF also have special medical aids to prolong alertness by the long haulers. Can anyone put a name to them ?
Psychophysiological entity
It has for some time been my intention to write a very strongly worded post on the use of Valium. Despite it being accepted now that there is a danger of addiction, I believe that there is a far more sinister set of side effects in some people. The problem is, that I don't have specific data, so can not form an opinion on how many people are thus affected.
I would be grateful for any information from folk that have some knowledge on this subject.
Temazipam seems to have distinctly similar problems, though perhaps not as severe.
For now, I would say that I feel that these drugs should not be in any brain that is the nerve-center of an aircraft. And never, never rely on the half life times quoted in the PDRs
I was posting last year on my posterior vitreous detachment (PVD) problems. After weeks of pain I used Valium to unlock a spasm in my eyes. I took a minute proportion of the recommended dose, and the result was miraculous, but the kick-back was as severe as my first encounter 35 years ago.
I would be grateful for any information from folk that have some knowledge on this subject.
Temazipam seems to have distinctly similar problems, though perhaps not as severe.
For now, I would say that I feel that these drugs should not be in any brain that is the nerve-center of an aircraft. And never, never rely on the half life times quoted in the PDRs
I was posting last year on my posterior vitreous detachment (PVD) problems. After weeks of pain I used Valium to unlock a spasm in my eyes. I took a minute proportion of the recommended dose, and the result was miraculous, but the kick-back was as severe as my first encounter 35 years ago.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zolpidem (household name is Ambien in the US) is "good stuff", better than temazepam, but should be used sparingly and wisely. Probably could help aircrew on layovers if used sensibly, but likelyhood of misuse is there (ala alcohol), and if you have an accident and it's found you have used it, you know who will get the blame. Simple things like keeping well hydrated, avoiding alcohol, and sensible eating will also help jetlag a lot and not risk your licence or passengers' lives. Didn't the USAF just use amphetamines?
Psychophysiological entity
I gather this is true.
Speed and other substances were "encouraged" according to some psychology studies. Haven't seen any papers myself, but was discussing it only yesterday.
Speed and other substances were "encouraged" according to some psychology studies. Haven't seen any papers myself, but was discussing it only yesterday.
check the obvious, room not to warm/cold, noise, comfy bed.
I don't know enough about pharmacological hypnotics and flying, I should imagine its a very specialised area.
Double strength camomile tea works for me. Tastes like cack, but does mellow you out.
I don't know enough about pharmacological hypnotics and flying, I should imagine its a very specialised area.
Double strength camomile tea works for me. Tastes like cack, but does mellow you out.
Last edited by gingernut; 5th Apr 2005 at 13:25.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The RAF did use Tamazapam, ("Normison"), during the Falklands war but shortly after, according to my AME, it was found to have a much greater half-life than previously thought and was banned by the UK CAA. In its place came Zopiclon(spl?), ("Zimmervane"), leaves a foul taste in the mouth but does get you off to sleep with little or no after effects, even Zopiclon may have been superseded by now!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Leeds
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm a doctor and also have to endure some pretty awful shift work and so have a bit of an interest in sleep.
Studies have shown that eating a banana (this is not a wind up) an hour before sleeping can help with somnelance (falling asleep).
Also there is a milk available in supermarkets now (may only be sainsbury's/waitrose) that apparantly contains higher than normal amounts of melatonin and so aids sleep.
The problem with pills such as zopiclone and temazepam etc is that they all have side effects whether it be some sort of hangover/drowsiness or even hallucinations.
Studies have shown that eating a banana (this is not a wind up) an hour before sleeping can help with somnelance (falling asleep).
Also there is a milk available in supermarkets now (may only be sainsbury's/waitrose) that apparantly contains higher than normal amounts of melatonin and so aids sleep.
The problem with pills such as zopiclone and temazepam etc is that they all have side effects whether it be some sort of hangover/drowsiness or even hallucinations.
Psychophysiological entity
Since my promised comment on Valium etc became rather protracted, I have started a new thread so as not to hijack this discussion with my opinions on the dangers. There are some of the more ‘interesting' parts of the side effects from a US P.D.R. as an addendum. LR
In its place came Zopiclon(spl?), ("Zimmervane"), leaves a foul taste in the mouth but does get you off to sleep with little or no after effects,
The warning label for zoplicone reads, Warning. Causes drowsiness which may continue the next day. If affected do not drive or operate machinery. Avoid alcoholic drink."
Last edited by gingernut; 6th Apr 2005 at 10:49.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In fairness Gingernut that warning is very much the same as you will find on dozens of bottles and packets, including cold cures!
All I can say is that the UK CAA did, once, allow Temazepam, they then disallowed it and in its place allowed Zopiclone. Not sure if this is still the case.
All I can say is that the UK CAA did, once, allow Temazepam, they then disallowed it and in its place allowed Zopiclone. Not sure if this is still the case.
Fair comment.
I guess if I had a choice, I would rather step on board with a pilot refreshed with the aid of zoplicone, than one who had been awake, tossing and turning all night.
Anecdotically however, some of my patients do
still report a "hangover" effect from using this fairly powerful drug.
I guess if I had a choice, I would rather step on board with a pilot refreshed with the aid of zoplicone, than one who had been awake, tossing and turning all night.
Anecdotically however, some of my patients do
still report a "hangover" effect from using this fairly powerful drug.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's a strange one BlueEagle, one would expect temazepam to have fewer residual effects than Zopiclone. These are based upon studies of civilians and driving ability of course, not military pilots in combat. Even so, Zopliclone is the worst of the three 'z's for residual effects on driving, the other two are not bad at all if used sensibly.
even Zopiclon may have been superseded by now!
Zopiclone was never licenced in the US, but a derivative (eszopiclone) was recently licenced for insomnia. This is supposed to be so good that you can use it long term - of course they said that about the benzos.
Would agree with gingernut that I'd rather a jetlagged pilot get some sleep before heading back across the time zones. If (s)he cannot do so normally then sensible use of a 'z' drug would be OK by me as a pax. Zolpidem is allowable in the US for pilots, but not within 24 hours of flight, and not for circadian rhythm disturbance.
I use zolpidem occasionally when in economy for long haul, it's very useful. It doesn't help with jet lag, mainly removes me from the boredom and gives me some sleep where I may get none, but I'm very happy to drive a rental car when I get to the destination having taken zolpidem some 10 hours before. The best prevention for jet lag (for me) is plenty of water and minimal alcohol.
even Zopiclon may have been superseded by now!
Zopiclone was never licenced in the US, but a derivative (eszopiclone) was recently licenced for insomnia. This is supposed to be so good that you can use it long term - of course they said that about the benzos.
Would agree with gingernut that I'd rather a jetlagged pilot get some sleep before heading back across the time zones. If (s)he cannot do so normally then sensible use of a 'z' drug would be OK by me as a pax. Zolpidem is allowable in the US for pilots, but not within 24 hours of flight, and not for circadian rhythm disturbance.
I use zolpidem occasionally when in economy for long haul, it's very useful. It doesn't help with jet lag, mainly removes me from the boredom and gives me some sleep where I may get none, but I'm very happy to drive a rental car when I get to the destination having taken zolpidem some 10 hours before. The best prevention for jet lag (for me) is plenty of water and minimal alcohol.
After much experimentation in the field, I have found that a bit of exercise after the flight plus a hot shower and a few beers with your mates works wonders.
I wouldn't normally recommend alcohol but in moderation, i.e. 1-2 pints, I find I get a better night's sleep. Maybe it's part of a 'winding down' process and allows me to drift off having put the days' events behind me. I could give it up anytime, honest!
I see people around me using various sorts of medication, including things like Melatonin. I feel that the long term effects of a lot of these substances are not fully understood, even the 'over the counter' versions. Some the the drugs that are freely available from chemists and are in widespread use in our society, are very potent indeed. Comparable in toxicity and dependence to things like Heroin, Benzedrine, etc.
I'd rather stick to socialising, getting my body tired as well as my brain and enjoy one of the substances that has been extensively trialled over the last 5,000 years or so and that we know all the problems and side effects of. Anyway, I like beer.
I wouldn't normally recommend alcohol but in moderation, i.e. 1-2 pints, I find I get a better night's sleep. Maybe it's part of a 'winding down' process and allows me to drift off having put the days' events behind me. I could give it up anytime, honest!
I see people around me using various sorts of medication, including things like Melatonin. I feel that the long term effects of a lot of these substances are not fully understood, even the 'over the counter' versions. Some the the drugs that are freely available from chemists and are in widespread use in our society, are very potent indeed. Comparable in toxicity and dependence to things like Heroin, Benzedrine, etc.
I'd rather stick to socialising, getting my body tired as well as my brain and enjoy one of the substances that has been extensively trialled over the last 5,000 years or so and that we know all the problems and side effects of. Anyway, I like beer.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK/Spain
Age: 62
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zopiclone and Tamazepam
Blue Eagle,
I can confirm that the CAA's thinking has changed.
Just over a year ago I needed to resort to sleeping 'assistance'. My AME said the two accepted by the CAA were Zopiclone and Temazepam, and that she preferred Zopiclone.
I used Zopiclone and found it effective with no discernible side effects. In conversation with a CAA staff doctor he revealed that I would have to stop flying as Zopiclone was not acceptable and the only sleeping medication acceptable to the CAA now was Temazepam. I changed to Temazepam and found firstly that it was not as effective, especially when I tried to reduce the dosage and secondly that at times I felt like absolut cr@p the following day.
I can confirm that the CAA's thinking has changed.
Just over a year ago I needed to resort to sleeping 'assistance'. My AME said the two accepted by the CAA were Zopiclone and Temazepam, and that she preferred Zopiclone.
I used Zopiclone and found it effective with no discernible side effects. In conversation with a CAA staff doctor he revealed that I would have to stop flying as Zopiclone was not acceptable and the only sleeping medication acceptable to the CAA now was Temazepam. I changed to Temazepam and found firstly that it was not as effective, especially when I tried to reduce the dosage and secondly that at times I felt like absolut cr@p the following day.