Elliot Moose

Well, here's the story in the great white north (and yes it does look white to me, and yes I can easily discern whether or not I'm eating yellow snow!). .When I first went for a medical (circa 1992) I ended up at one of those friendly old family type docs who also happened to do medicals. I of course flunked the Ishihara plates miserably. That said, I knew that I had more than adequate colour vision for the needs of a pilot as I had just spent the past two years studying human factors and ergonomics in aviation as part of my Psychology degree. His only recourse was a lantern box type of test which was done in his office. Unfortunately for me the doc was older than Jesus and so was his lantern box kit. To compound my problems he left the flourescent lights on for the test. I could barely see the light at all let alone tell what colour it was! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . .Several tests later (at other docs, since the old guy cashed his check about a month after my medical) and I was able to say that I clearly have a mild case of deutanope (green only) colourblindness. About all I'm really incapable of is co-ordinating subtle shades of some colours (i.e. I get my wife to occasionally check to see if this shirt goes with that tie, and don't hire me to choose the colours when you redecorate--I can however generally mix the paint and even tell if it's not right), which is not really part of the pilot's job--we all wear uniforms right?. .In the end TC was able to accomodate me for a "practical" test at the nearest suitable centre--Winnipeg (only about 1500km away). <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .They parked me on the end of the runway one night and flashed the landing signal at me 30 times and that was that--no mistakes. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . .Well, now I have amassed several thousand hours of flight time in aircraft equipped with colour radar, and a large amount in EFIS aircraft. I have yet to see how colour vision can be a limiting fault for any facet of flying with the possible exception of landing by light signals. That of course is one of those nearly archaic bits of aviation rulemaking which is now almost on the level of the old "the pilot may not wear spurs while flying the aircraft...." type regulations. . .For every light coded signal that I have ever seen there has been some way of distinguishing that signal by other means. By this I mean that an amber light for a master caution MUST have printed on or beside it "master caution". Even on the latest full EFIS aircraft (I do instructing and production test flying on regional jets) where colour coded synoptic displays are the rule, all abnormalities are backed up with like coloured messages, and aural cues which are discrete for the colours. The only thing in a modern cockpit which relies solely on colour is the Wx radar. The nature of that display is such that all but the most profoundly colourblind can distinguish one colour from the other, and there the patterns make up for the lack of other cues (i.e. you never see the red stuff outside the green stuff). I even checked this one out with a guy who couldn't tell red light from green when driving unless they were arranged in the usual pattern-- and he could point out where the storm was!. .Colours in aviation are (and I'm speaking as one who has studied this) associative cues. They make things a bit easier to see and process (you can process better sometimes if you can say "damn it's the big RED light that's on" as opposed to "damn that light just came on"). It is a good thing, but certainly not the kind of thing that even remotely creates a dangerous situation by not being present. To say that "Elliot won't see it as fast as Bob because he has to read the message" may be valid, but then Ellion may also have better vision (doesn't need bifocals, or smoke), strength (I have seen women unable to manually extend the gear on a CRJ, and men who had to leave their seat to do it, while I can one-hand it and keep my other on the checklist), stamina, or whatever than the person who is next to me. Do we check for these things during medicals? Nope. Do we have to have lightning reflexes to pass? Nope. Do we have to have a min IQ? Nope (although I have seen more than a few pilots who would make me think it not a bad idea--I mean guys and girls who are, all kidding aside, not equipped to handle complex machinery). As long as you can drag yourself into the doc's office and prove passable a good heart,hearing, eyesight (WITH lenses, even if you can't pee without), BP within limits, etc. you get a pilot's ticket. BUT should you be even slightly deficient in the colour vision, which is generally not a factor, you are out. Thank you very much, have a nice day, don't let the doorknob hit your @ss on the way out.

Okay, I'm done now.

By the way. Does anybody know if there's a place in Spain where I can do a JAA initial? I'll need one for some flying over that way this summer, and I am headed to Madrid next week for a month. . .Thanks

Dutch-pilot

Hello,

I read all these posts but I still have some questions left!

last year I was examined for a Dutch JAA medical Class I at Soesterberg. I did Ishihara and Holmes Wright but failed both. I failed HW with only 1 fault. You guys say I would make a better chance to retest in Switserland. But if I retest there and so get my medical Class I, is that Swiss class I totally equal to a Dutch Class I?? Is it only a formality to get my Dutch Class I?? Or... what are the difficulties if I test in Switserland, get my Class I and want to fly in Dutch registered aircrafts??

What's the address of the Swiss Medical Aviation Department?? Do they have a web-page as well?? A peculiar doctor suggested?!

Adios!. .D-P.

inverted flatspin

just flagging this one up

N2334M

Dear Dutch Pilot,. .. .To apply for an initial first class medical your must pass the examination at an AMC (in Dubendorf for Switzerland).. .. .The colour vision test will be done there.. .. .An AME has no right to pass the specialized colour lantern test.. .. .An AME has no right to remove any limitation, that must be done by the AeroMedical Centre.. .. .I do not have any more details about Dubendorf, but I am pretty sure you can obtain some more information contacting them by their internet site, the url is:. .. .<a href="http://www.aviation.admin.ch/" target="_blank">http://www.aviation.admin.ch/</a>. .. .I do not know what kind of colour vision tests they are using in Dubendorf.. .. .I hope this helps you.. .. .Please let us know what they say.... .. .Best regards,. .N2334M

itsresidual

I'm a UK CAA licensed aircraft engineer. I hold full certifying authority on several airliner types, including limited avionics authority.. .. .I'm currently looking into flying training for myself. However, I know from experience that I will fail both the Ishihara test and the Farnsworth Lantern test.. .. .I have read that one of the reasons cited by aviation authorities for the high colour perception standards currently in force, is the requirement to differentiate between coloured lights on the flight deck.. .. .My point is this-. .. .If my colour perception standard prevents me from operating aircraft at night as a pilot, why does the same aviation authority allow me to carry out high power engine runs, with all the attendant risks of fire, loss of aircraft, etc, at UK airports? I assume the lights I monitor are the same lights pilots use!. .Most transport aircraft have a multitude of lights on their warning panels, red, green and white. Amber and red attention getters on the glare shield inform the pilot to look at the master warning panel. If an amber attention getter flashes, would a pilot ignore it because it isn’t as important as a red attention getter? Of course not, be it red or amber, a pilot would look at the master warning panel. Again, on the master panel, colour vision does not help. There’s dozens of amber lights and almost as many red. You still have to read the legend on the light to find out what system you are supposed to action.. .. .And how about the safety aspect? The EFIS, weather radar and other colour using equipment that prevents you and I from flying, is serviced and certified by me!. .. .Fear not, although I am unable to pass a CAA colour test, I find no problem (as I suspect most of you do) in recognizing all colours in the flight deck, both at night and in daylight (I have confirmed this with other ‘normal’ engineers). I also find no problem in recognizing airfield lights, even PAPIs on my jumpseat rides.. .. .Now, I do of course realise that there is a difference between dealing with an engine fire in flight and on the ground, but I believe colour perception will play a negligible part in flight deck operations.. .. .As a note of interest, the CAA has no colour vision requirement for licensed aircraft engineers.

inverted flatspin

I came across this while surfing, I have to admit that I am a bit of a sceptic regarding alternative treatments but you never know I guess it can't do any harm. I will take this to an acupunturist and see if there is any improvement.. .. .<a href="http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=BL1&meridian=Bladder" target="_blank">http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=BL1&meridian=Bladder</a>

777AV8R

Here is some information on the subject, from an FAA prospective that you all might find appropriate, accurate and up to date.http://www.aviationmedicine.com/colorvision.htm

Dutch-pilot

Hi N2334M and others,. .. .I checked the Swiss AME site. Unfortunately I cannot find any information about colour vision. I even cannot find anything about medical examinations! I sent them an e-mail.. .. .I'll keep you posted!. .. .Kind regards,. .PTR

N2334M

Any news regarding the new Beyne's lantern test at Gatwick CAA ? Are they still testing it ? Is it ready to sit ?. .. .Bye,. .N2334M.

StephenRED

I`m in the same boat as you guys..I just cannot understand the JAA/CAA..its obvious,the americans have got it right by allowing you to do a practical test on an airfield with the lights,if you pass getting the waiver etc etc..

Hopefully now they`ve decoded the human genome we might be in luck for treatment but..I`m still annoyed because it felt when I was at Gatwick they`d claimed a victory against me..I hated the doctors attitude,you not being invited back..your dangerous get out.

All you other guys that have been upto Gatwick for the lanten test..hmmm.what plane has a seat 10 ft behind the instrument panel and pencil tip wide warning lights??? It sucks big time and REALLY annoys me,such a bad way to test...

Is there anyone out there wanting to put the CAA/JAA on ice..if so,let me know

Elliot Moose

Time to bring this important subject back to the top for the benefit of those who are still searching for answers!

ETOPS773

SR,you should see if the beynes lantern test has arrived yet.you`ll find that alot better.anyone know??

If not,pop down to euroland..do the test in each country..got at least 10 chances to get it right eventually!!!

docstone

The lantern tests are being run by City University, London for the CAA - part of a plethora of tests conducted by the department as part of post-doctoral research - very thorough, very professional, plus they are trying to debunk some of the nonsense that surrounds the current colour vision standards (ie white is a critical colour)

Contact number 0207 040 8939 (Dr Teresa Squires/Marisa Rodriguez-Carmona)

Nick Mahon

Right guys, in civvy street, does passing the lantern test mean that you're ok for a class 1. I'm applying to RAF next year, I passed the Lantern test though failed the ishihara test. I could do a few of the dotted numbers, though further on I couldn't see ****** all.

My point is, whats the point in taking the Lantern test if they don't let you in for pilot/nav on the grounds of passing or failing the ishihara test. And is there any way around this.

Also, if anyone could confirm the current cp levels for pilot and Nav, that'd also be great.

Good luck guys aswell

Nick

TheFlyingDJ

hi fellow pilots!

Last week I had my medical test in holland for medical class1.
I also failed the ishihara test.
Now I must try to pass the falant lantern test.
It is described earlier but I have got a few questions!

It will be given in 9 different series. but if there are 3 different colors there are max 27 different combinations possible.
will the collors also be different in intensity??
or wil the collors have the same intensity each serie but only another sequence??

please let me know, it is really important!

greetz

ist it possible to get 2 of the same colors in one serie?
and is it possible to do the test in another country if you failed in you own country?
that doesn't count??

Hightower

Flying DJ

I did the Lantern Test (Farnsworth), a couple of weeks ago here in Oz and yes there are different intensities of colour.

I was shown two lights at a time, which can be red, green, or white.
The bright coloured lights are easy enough, it's when the colours are so pale as to look off white that made it a little difficult.


Good luck.

papercut

To Nick Mahon

The current standards for GD(P) and GD(N) are CP2.

CP2 is normal colour vision.

Normal colour vision is getting 100% correct Ishihara plates (in daylight or daylight corrected light)

If you fail Ishihara and pass the Holmes-Wright lantern test you are CP3 ("colour-blind safe") and can hold an airfield driving permit for instance (traffic lights on airfield are not red amber green up a pole!)

Fail the H-W lantern you are CP4.

ETOPS773

So,if you fail the Farnsworth Lantern test,I hear you can do the Beynes Lantern.

So,if someone was to fail that,would they be able to do the test abroad,like in Holland or Belgium???

The stupid rules the CAA have in place make me chuckle,but I thought in Oz,you didn`t do any colour vision tests...you got rid of all this myth didn`t you???

So..suppose City University decide you can be monochrome and still fly safely..you really think the CAA will wake up and do something about it???Ease the rules???

TheFlyingDJ

hi guys.

i didn't got the farnsworth lantern but the anamaloscope test.
in my opinion it was a strange test. I had to look throug a telescope. I saw a circel with one red half and a green half.

The lady said that the circel must be one colour. I had to correct the greenhalf(not colour but only intensity) with one turning knob.

IS IT EVER POSSIBLE TO TRANSMIT GREEN INTO RED??

i turned the knob into a configuration that the colour diffrence was as small as possible! (altough I could still see a red and green half)but if i turned the knob further it went to light and otherwise to dark but it stays green!!

strange??

When the test was finished see said i didnt pass and i can forget the dream!

is there anybody with a similar story?

The people at the aviation center were not nice to me either! iam also a dangerous man so please go! I could see it on thier faces.

LawMaker

Hi all,

1 Background
----------------------------

Just joined pprune a few days ago in research of changing from lawyer to pilot at 31. (erm… was originally IT).

Now, reading this thread through since 2000, I’ve noticed some desire to take CAA/JAA to issue on their unreasonable requirements for colour vision standards.

Unfortunately, nothing has been followed through. If I’m mistaken, please mail me with the relevant links.

2 Plan of attack
----------------------------

In my hope to be a possible catalyst to any action, here’s my thoughts on the action required. You’ll have to correct me if I’ve got some of the technical facts/jargon wrong.

This needs to be a 2 pronged attack.

1. Lobbying.
2. Legal Action.

3 Lobbying
----------------------------

The first is free and would just require some organisation from the members on Pprune.

After a forum/organisation to tackle the lobbying has been created, they would enlist the support of external aviation organisations to emphasise the unreasonable and discriminatory stance adopted by the CAA/JAA.

Organisations including and under the umbrella of International Council of Aircraft Owner and Pilot Associations need to be contacted.

The more signatories you have backing you, by both quantity and quality, the more pressure your lobbying will have on the CAA/JAA.

Local MP's would also need to be taken on board to support the matter and air their concerns both in writing and even raise the issue in a Commons debate.

If the JAA/CAA are alleging that it is unsafe for CVD pilots to fly in European airspace, why do they permit US pilots who would fail the JAA colour vision tests to fly in European airspace.

In addition, experts such as Dr Arthur Pape could be contacted for their technical support. Also, Dr Theresa-Jane Squire (0207 040 0240 / [email protected]) who undertook research for the CAA on this issue at City University, may prove to be a useful source of argument.

4 Legal Action
----------------------------

Since 2000 and beyond, nobody has taken action against the CAA for what seems to be a rather straight-forward case.

I understand from other posts that the JAA cannot be taken to issue, although the EASA can. Would have to look into this deeper to come to a conclusion.

The reason for inaction is probably due to lack of private funds to pay for the solicitors, barristers, expert witnesses and potential costs if case is lost.

There are solutions to this funding problem.

1. Legal Aid.
2. Insurance
3. Conditional Fee Agreement

4.1 Legal Aid
----------------------------

The area of law we are discussing seems to be employment/aviation law. I am not an expert in this area (erm… no type rating I think you say), as I’m crime/family with a touch of civil.

This would require a single person to take an action against the relevant body. If more people wish to join in the action, that is ok but not completely necessary. However, it may be a consideration that damages by the client may be sought for loss of earnings due to the discriminatory decision taken by the CAA. The likelihood of this happening will depend on the facts of the client and cannot realistically be considered until a much later stage with the expertise of the employment/aviation solicitor.

He/She would go to an employment/aviation solicitor in the UK, providing the background of their complaint and how they have been discriminated against because of their disability, and the unreasonableness of the discrimination.

Information of the unreasonableness can be supported by the FAA and other standards and the fact that the JAA/CAA permit for example, American pilots to fly in UK airspace.

The person should be on income support or a low wage to qualify for legal aid under the means test. In respect of the merit test, I’m not 100% sure if employment law under this category permits legal aid to be granted. This would have to be checked with the employment solicitor. It shouldn’t be a problem to find out, as the initial meeting should be free.

If legal aid can be granted, then the client can employ the solicitor, barristers and expert witnesses all paid for by the legal services commission (i.e. The government).

The solicitor would seek a judicial review of the CAA’s decision on this matter with the supporting evidence/ expert reports. If it is deemed that the appropriate body is European JAA/EASA, then they can be joined in addition or replacement of the CAA. Legal aid will cover the case costs all the way to the European courts.

4.2 Insurance
----------------------------

If the employment solicitor determines that legal aid is not receivable under the circumstances, then the route of insurance can be used.

Here, the relevant background information and arguments supporting your case would be given to the solicitor. He would employ a barrister to prepare an ‘advice’ on this case, with the likelihood of success.

This would cost in the region of £1000.

With this advice, the solicitor would approach certain insurance companies who would view the advice by the barrister and decide whether to enter into a contract with the client.

If they decide to enter a contract, it may be of the type whereby they would pay the total cost of solicitor/barrister/expert witnesses/potential costs for you.

If you win the case, it is likely that all of the costs would be paid by the CAA/JAA. If you lose the case, your costs are covered by the insurance company.

4.3 Conditional Fee Agreement
----------------------------

In addition to 4.2, or in replacement of, a ‘no win, no fee’ agreement may be reached with the solicitor.

If he/she can see that this case is likely to succeed, they may agree not to charge you for the costs of the case if you lose.

If you win, the costs will be taken from the otherside. The exact details of the agreement can be negotiated with them.

5 Conclusion
----------------------------

I hope that the above suggestions are taken on board and this matter progressed further, as the current state of affairs need not be how they are and have been for quite some time to the detriment of many many dreams.

I can’t see any real hindrance to taking the action, with the suggestions outlined above and cannot even see much of a defence by the CAA for their unreasonable and discriminatory stance.

Unfortunately, if this action isn’t taken now, with this current level of support; this issue will continue as it is for no need whatsoever, which will be a real shame.