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-   -   War in Australia (any Oz Politics): the Original (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/477678-war-australia-any-oz-politics-original.html)

chuboy 21st Oct 2018 14:10


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10288462)
Yes Dr..I agree (sadly)..however I think Shorten will be PM for at least 2 terms because the Libs will be decimated. The people smugglers will be loading the boats as we speak..we might as go onto food stamps because Labor will tax us out of existence...however it will take the electorate at least 2 terms to work out what they voted for. May we live in interesting times....

What exactly did we vote for the last two terms?

I seem to recall the general vibe in this thread during the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd saga was that the Coalition would finally steady the ship and show the country what real stability and pragmatic governance would look like.

Yet here we are, probably the only thing that has changed between Rudd 2.0 and today is the legalisation of same-sex marriage. What other policy decisions have had a positive effect on the country since Abbott's election in 2013?

artee 22nd Oct 2018 04:11

Wasn't it that chappie Jobson Growthe?

Ascend Charlie 22nd Oct 2018 04:48

Neither party has anything in their policies which is looking further than about 5 minutes. Dollar Bill is likely to be the worst PM we have ever had, but there is almost no alternative.

Prepare yourself for the worst time to be a White Hetero Christian. Legislation to make excuses and allowances for the people who aren't WHC will be back-breaking, and the screaming minorities will run parliament.

ruprecht 22nd Oct 2018 05:04


Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie (Post 10289072)
Prepare yourself for the worst time to be a White Hetero Christian.

Well thank goodness I’m only two of those things, so I’ll be fine. :rolleyes:

parabellum 22nd Oct 2018 05:06


Malcolm coming in just before the 2016 election gave swinging voters in the middle some hope and saw them just scrape over the line to take the election which would have been a certain loss under Abbott. However LNP support declined after that when the average voter realised Abbott, Dutton and Co had Malcolm by the balls and were neutering him. The only two LNP potential leaders who could get that crucial moderate support are Bishop or Turnbull, not Abbott or Dutton or Morrison.
An interesting hypothesis Dr Dre, you seem to have avoided the fact that when Turnbull came to power the electorate were so over joyed that a swift double dissolution would have guaranteed him about a fourteen seat overall majority, instead of which, by the time Turnbull eventually did call an election the entire electorate had seen through him and realised he was just another marsh mallow, result, one seat advantage, no senate majority and total achievements that weren't already ALP policy anyway, zero.. Turnbulls behaviour in respect of the Wentworth seat was disgusting and for that alone he should be sacked from his party, whose politics he never did endorse anyway.

dr dre 22nd Oct 2018 06:13


Originally Posted by parabellum (Post 10289081)
An interesting hypothesis Dr Dre, you seem to have avoided the fact that when Turnbull came to power the electorate were so over joyed that a swift double dissolution would have guaranteed him about a fourteen seat overall majority, instead of which, by the time Turnbull eventually did call an election the entire electorate had seen through him and realised he was just another marsh mallow, result, one seat advantage, no senate majority and total achievements that weren't already ALP policy anyway, zero...

Yeah there was a 9 month period from Malcolm rollling Tony until the next election. The Australian people were overjoyed the mad monk was booted from power and Turnbull’s biggest mistake wasn’t going to an immediate election to capitise on it. After nine months most of his support had crumbled when the public realised the Malcolm they wanted wasn’t there and instead they got a prettier face on an Abbott government. After 2016 the LNP’s numbers have always been down.


Turnbulls behaviour in respect of the Wentworth seat was disgusting and for that alone he should be sacked from his party, whose politics he never did endorse anyway.
It’s in the name. “Liberal” party. Have a look at the meaning of the word. Take a look at this poll, taken prior to the spill:

Q. Which of the following do you think would make the best leader of the Liberal Party?

Look at the Preferred PM numbers under the “vote Lib/Nat” column. Turnbull clearly in front amongst Liberal party voters. Another moderate, Bishop is in second. Where are the conservatives? Abbott takes third, Dutton in fourth and ScoMo takes 5th on a puny 2%. I think the numbers speak clearly that those who vote LNP want a moderate over a conservative to be leading their party.

And why should Malcolm have bothered to help in Wentworth? The conservatives booted him out of the PM’s job because they thought he was too “leftist” and was a liability that would cost them the next election, and they were glad to see the back of him. But now they say losing Wentworth is his fault because they needed his popularity to win that seat. Well if I were Malcolm I would’ve sent them a message rhyming with “get clucked” to that plea.

Luckily the 3 conservative amigos will be ending soon. Dutton will probably lose his seat at the next election, ScoMo wil lose his place at the lodge and sulk off to the backbench and the embarrassment of being an opposition backbencher will probably be too much for the mad monk and he’ll scurry off out of parliament.


Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie (Post 10289072)

Prepare yourself for the worst time to be a White Hetero Christian. Legislation to make excuses and allowances for the people who aren't WHC will be back-breaking, and the screaming minorities will run parliament.

As opposed to the minority of LNP party loyalists and staffers, IPA appointees and Sky News commentators who are running the show now?

cee cee 22nd Oct 2018 15:37


Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie (Post 10289072)
the screaming minorities will run parliament.

That sounds like what was said by the "No" faction before the SSM plebiscite. They demanded the plebiscite expecting the silent majority to rise up and support them, but when the plebiscite result went against them almost 2 to 1, their tune became "How dare the majority tell me what to do".

On second though, not very surprising at all, since they are pretty much the same crowd.

[Hmm, any chance we can convince them to force the climate change issue to a plebiscite :E]

Hempy 22nd Oct 2018 20:21


Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie (Post 10289072)
Prepare yourself for the worst time to be a White Hetero Christian. Legislation to make excuses and allowances for the people who aren't WHC will be back-breaking, and the screaming minorities will run parliament.

The worst time? How dramatic. What exactly do you think they’re going to do to you, put you in a detention centre?

Careful, you’re starting to sound like a screaming minority..

dr dre 23rd Oct 2018 02:26


Originally Posted by Hempy (Post 10289759)
The worst time? How dramatic. What exactly do you think they’re going to do to you, put you in a detention centre?

Careful, you’re starting to sound like a screaming minority..

Sounds like a One Nation or Katter or Australian Conservatives voter. So yes, a minority of about 5-8% of the vote.

Crownstay01 23rd Oct 2018 11:55


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10287779)
Well what a complete cxxk up!!!!. Malcolm spat the dumb and resigned. He has now by his stupid, selfish. actions handed the PM position to Shorten. They should have left Abbott as PM. The put in a left wing PM, trying to run a right wing party...isolated the conservative base...and now we have a hung parliament, with Labor assured of a big win at the next election. What a mess!!! (IMHO)

Of course he resigned. Unlike Abbott he didn't need a backbencher's pay to survive, and also unlike Abbott he's not delusional enough to think he has another chance at being PM. And of course he spat the dummy. If you'd spent nearly $2 million of your own money to become PM and then your party dumped you, you'd spit the dummy too.

Speaking of delusional, that's how I'd describe anyone who thinks Turnbull is "left wing".

But regardless of what Turnbull did or didn't do, the main reason the Libs copped a flogging in Wentworth is that their salesman-in-chief is trying to sell a dodgy product that less and less people want to buy. When Morrison claims the the Libs aren't getting their message across, he's in denial. People have heard the message, they're just not interested.

Pinky the pilot 24th Oct 2018 09:46


Speaking of delusional, that's how I'd describe anyone who thinks Turnbull is "left wing".
Well, I certainly would not describe him as being from the right. But ok then, Crownstay01', Given that it is common knowledge that Turnbull approached Graham Richardson (and others I believe) and begged to be given a Labor spot, then of what part of the political spectrum would you place him?:confused:

Seeing as it appears that nowadays anyone espousing what would have been described back as late as the early 70's as having moderate views, is now described as being of the far right.........Well, I wonder what those people would make of Franco's Spain!:eek:

Hempy 24th Oct 2018 11:49


Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot (Post 10291066)
Seeing as it appears that nowadays anyone espousing what would have been described back as late as the early 70's as having moderate views, is now described as being of the far right.........Well, I wonder what those people would make of Franco's Spain!:eek:

I know this might come as a shock, but the median age of Australians is 37.3 years....the majority of Australians weren’t even born in the 70’s. As for Franco, he’s about as relevant as any other historical figure I suppose, i.e not.

My point being? Societies evolve. Definitions change. Thinking changes. I can tell you for a fact that teenagers in 2018 are far more left wing/socially minded/tolerant/impartial/broad thinking than they were in the 1970’s too. Crownstay01 is correct when
be says that no one except hard core far righters would consider Turnbull a ‘Leftist’. You know, the same type who considered the Abbott Liberal Party ‘about right’.

Crownstay01 24th Oct 2018 22:27


Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot (Post 10291066)
Well, I certainly would not describe him as being from the right. But ok then, Crownstay01', Given that it is common knowledge that Turnbull approached Graham Richardson (and others I believe) and begged to be given a Labor spot, then of what part of the political spectrum would you place him?

Given his history and his long association with the Liberal party I'd call him right-leaning. But apart from that I think he's just an opportunist - and that's being polite. Everything he's ever done has been about looking after himself. He couldn't get a start with Labor so he stuck with the Liberals instead to further his aims.

WingNut60 24th Oct 2018 22:54


Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot (Post 10291066)
..........what would have been described back as late as the early 70's as having moderate views, is now described as being of the far right.........

Could you give us an example of who you're thinking of there. Bob Menzies? Harry Holt? Billy McMahon, Mal No Pants?
I give up.

Leaders or followers of any faction inevitably consider themselves to be moderate and RIGHT, as in correct.

I can assure you that a large proportion of the Oz population at the time (though not the majority, apparently) thought that Bob Menzies was further right, in his thinking, than Franco.

dr dre 24th Oct 2018 23:21


Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot (Post 10291066)
Seeing as it appears that nowadays anyone espousing what would have been described back as late as the early 70's as having moderate views, is now described as being of the far right....

And it’s a wonderful thing they are now considered “far right”. In the early 70’s “moderate” meant banning non whites from immigrating here and becoming citizens. It meant thinking gays were an abomination that deserved a good smack to the head if they dared expressed their true feelings. It meant thinking it was OK to force young people to join the military against their will and participate in a conflict they wished no part of. It was just a few years off Indigenous Australians not being considered full human beings. It meant the biggest Australian airlines still prohibited women from flying their planes.

Yes, if you held these positions today you would be considered a part of the 5-8% far right fringe nutters or Hanson devotees. And deservedly so. Just like that far right nutter Fraser Anning who tried to introduce a bill restricting non white immigration. What was “moderate” policy in the early 70’s is now considered the lunatic right fringe.

parabellum 25th Oct 2018 00:45


And it’s a wonderful thing they are now considered “far right”. In the early 70’s “moderate” meant banning non whites from immigrating here and becoming citizens. It meant thinking gays were an abomination that deserved a good smack to the head if they dared expressed their true feelings. It meant thinking it was OK to force young people to join the military against their will and participate in a conflict they wished no part of. It was just a few years off Indigenous Australians not being considered full human beings. It meant the biggest Australian airlines still prohibited women from flying their planes.
and then you go on to suggest that people who support the above would be, " Hanson devotees." The only one of the above that Hanson might support would be 'immigrants becoming citizens' if they had nothing to offer Australia and their few words of English revolved around 'Centre Link'. Bad choices there dr dre!

dr dre 25th Oct 2018 02:32


Originally Posted by parabellum (Post 10291774)
and then you go on to suggest that people who support the above would be, " Hanson devotees." The only one of the above that Hanson might support would be 'immigrants becoming citizens' if they had nothing to offer Australia and their few words of English revolved around 'Centre Link'. Bad choices there dr dre!

Bad analogy. I didn’t say Hanson herself supported those exact policies (although she has called for banning groups entering the country based on their religion and said Asians are swamping the country, she has called for a reintroduction of national service, she said the 1967 referendum was a mistake, so she’s not far off), but the supporters of her party and other far right nutters like Anning would be inclined to support anti-gay, anti-Asian migrant policies etc that were common in the early 70’s. How many of their supporters would start of a Facebook rant with “back in my youth Australia was so much better, we need Pauline to take us back to the way we were...”etc.

WingNut60 25th Oct 2018 02:51

The far-right dilemma: How to flood the market with cheap labour without having to contend with the ones who discover that hard work is not the only option.

Pinky the pilot 25th Oct 2018 10:30


I think he's just an opportunist - and that's being polite.
I can only agree. Except that I would not be so polite M'self!

QUOTE] I can assure you that a large proportion of the Oz population at the time (though not the majority, apparently) thought that Bob Menzies was further right, in his thinking, than Franco. [/QUOTE]

Most intrigued with that comment WingNut60; Your rationale being.....?

WingNut60 25th Oct 2018 11:57


Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot (Post 10292054)
I can only agree. Except that I would not be so polite M'self!

QUOTE] I can assure you that a large proportion of the Oz population at the time (though not the majority, apparently) thought that Bob Menzies was further right, in his thinking, than Franco.

Most intrigued with that comment WingNut60; Your rationale being.....?[/QUOTE]

The background is that I was alive and remember it.
If you think that Bob was held in high esteem by any faction other than his own group of sycophants then you've led a sheltered life.

Ascend Charlie 26th Oct 2018 00:09

Be nice, Wingnut, the Chancellor of Melbourne Uni was King Ming himself, and it was he who shook my hand and gave me my degree back then. Seemed to be a nice bloke but firmly rooted in the 50s.

WingNut60 26th Oct 2018 00:46

An appropriate thread title.
Bob (Ming or Pig-Iron Bob to others) was the man who committed Oz to Vietnam on a dubious and never-substantiated request from the South Vietnamese government for assistance.
You would think that such a request might have been made formally and to have been documented. No such records exist.

500 dead, 200 of them conscripts. Quite a guy.

Were you wearing rose-coloured glasses with that mortarboard?

Ken Borough 26th Oct 2018 04:03

A 'moderate' Liberal Party backbencher - Craig Laundy - was interviewed by The Guardian, the podcast of which is available here: https://www.theguardian.com/australi...s-live-podcast

I can recommend that those interested in politics take the time to listen. I do wonder if Laundy's more reactionary and conservative colleagues have the ability to heed the lessons?

dr dre 26th Oct 2018 07:11


Originally Posted by Ken Borough (Post 10292761)
A 'moderate' Liberal Party backbencher - Craig Laundy - was interviewed by The Guardian, the podcast of which is available here: https://www.theguardian.com/australi...s-live-podcast

I can recommend that those interested in politics take the time to listen. I do wonder if Laundy's more reactionary and conservative colleagues have the ability to heed the lessons?

Probably not. As Craig Laundy and others have pointed out, the direction of these reactionary conservatives is mostly being dictated by Sky News after dark. The “shockjockification” of politics. Too many MP’s who’ve come through the party system, and see politics as a game in which the goal is to “own” the opposition.

Like Laundy said moderates like him who try to reach across the aisle to make good policies are seen as “traitors” by the conservative Liberals. A decent swing against the LNP at the next election would see Laundy lose his seat, which would be a shame, as he sounds like a sensible future leader in the party. Better than some reactionaries who would be circling like vultures at that opportunity.

Eddie Dean 26th Oct 2018 07:43

Next Federal Election
 
With the current situation in Australia I am voting Independent or maybe Greens.
There is a need to manage energy prices better and also to have medicinal cannabis legal for those that need it. FWIW

dr dre 26th Oct 2018 08:09


Originally Posted by Eddie Dean (Post 10292863)
With the current situation in Australia I am voting Independent or maybe Greens.
There is a need to manage energy prices better and also to have medicinal cannabis legal for those that need it. FWIW

If they don’t take your fancy (and you’re in Victoria), check out this party: (disclaimer-I’m not a party member or live in Victoria)

https://reasonvic.org.au/policy/

They seem to have a bunch of good policies, and want drug law reform as well.

Eddie Dean 26th Oct 2018 08:18


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10292886)


If they don’t take your fancy (and you’re in Victoria), check out this party: (disclaimer-I’m not a party member or live in Victoria)

https://reasonvic.org.au/policy/

They seem to have a bunch of good policies, and want drug law reform as well.

Dr Dre, exactly what is needed. Although I don't reside there I'll put my two adult children, that are in Victoria onto them.

Interesting reading about the the latest legislation in Canada on cannabis laws.
NZ is having a referendum soon on the same issue and appears will be passed. Or atleast voted in. It will be up to their parliament to make it law.

ORAC 9th Nov 2018 09:21

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-...bings/10483788

Bourke Street attack in Melbourne CBD being treated as a terrorism incident

The attacker shot dead by police was known to intelligence authorities before he crashed his car loaded with gas bottles in the Melbourne CBD and stabbed three people.

Hempy 9th Nov 2018 10:57


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10306225)
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-...bings/10483788

Bourke Street attack in Melbourne CBD being treated as a terrorism incident

The attacker shot dead by police was known to intelligence authorities before he crashed his car loaded with gas bottles in the Melbourne CBD and stabbed three people.

Imagine what things would have been like if he could have easily got his hands on a high powered semi-automatic rifle

layman 9th Nov 2018 11:26

Reports are that one of those stabbed has since died.

Another [insert rude word here] extremist trying to impose their views on society - a relatively rare occurrence (8 attacks, 6 deaths in the last 4 years) which is probably a reflection on the good work being done behind the scenes by police and others.

From the limited vision of online videos it appears the police made numerous attempts to disarm him using just their batons and bare hands(!) before he was shot. I know they are "only" doing their job, but their display of bravery in trying to capture him, instead of shooting 'on sight', impressed me.

Given they made many attempts to capture him, I wonder if they considered, or even had available, tasers or mace or similar? Captured terrorist perpetrators are often useful sources of intelligence.

currawong 9th Nov 2018 11:29


Originally Posted by Hempy (Post 10306293)
Imagine what things would have been like if he could have easily got his hands on a high powered semi-automatic rifle

Or, if any passerby could have.

Police showed a lot more patience than I would have.

SOPS 9th Nov 2018 12:12

Reported just now...from Somalia. And yelling, you can guess, as he was stabbing people.

How come these people are always "known to the police" after they carry out an attack. If he was "known to police" and on a terror watch list, why was he not on the first aircraft out of Australia?

Squeaks 9th Nov 2018 14:28


Originally Posted by layman (Post 10306325)
Given they made many attempts to capture him, I wonder if they considered, or even had available, tasers or mace or similar?

Yes to both.

Squeaks 9th Nov 2018 14:32


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10306353)
Reported just now...from Somalia. And yelling, you can guess, as he was stabbing people.

How come these people are always "known to the police" after they carry out an attack. If he was "known to police" and on a terror watch list, why was he not on the first aircraft out of Australia?

Because the misguided default position engendered by the likes of the AAT is to demand that everyone has some sort of right to be allowed here, be given legal aid to fight removal and change Australian culture and values to suit their minority.

Takan Inchovit 9th Nov 2018 22:02


Originally Posted by Hempy (Post 10306293)
Imagine what things would have been like if he could have easily got his hands on a high powered semi-automatic rifle

If the offender wasn't a muslim import nutjob there would have been an even better result.

chuboy 10th Nov 2018 00:50


Originally Posted by layman (Post 10306325)
Given they made many attempts to capture him, I wonder if they considered, or even had available, tasers or mace or similar? Captured terrorist perpetrators are often useful sources of intelligence.

It is worth remembering that the police who responded were just general duties police on the beat in the area. They did an excellent job considering their purview. From their point of view they were just dealing with a disturbance caused by a deranged man, I doubt they approach every ranting lunatic waving a knife as though they are interrupting a terrorist attack in progress.

I am proud of the job they did, attempting to subdue first without firearms, and then a single clean shot when things started to deteriorate. In the States I can imagine it could have easily ended up a spray-and-pray with civilians caught in the crossfire.

currawong 10th Nov 2018 02:16

" In the States I can imagine it could have easily ended up a spray-and-pray with civilians caught in the crossfire."

Really?

Lindt Cafe siege refers.

chuboy 10th Nov 2018 04:06


Originally Posted by currawong (Post 10307085)
" In the States I can imagine it could have easily ended up a spray-and-pray with civilians caught in the crossfire."

Really?

Lindt Cafe siege refers.

That was, rightfully, subject to quite some criticism indeed - especially since it was the special response team and not your run of the mill beat cops who ended up wounding the hostages.

It turns out the chap who fired the only bullet yesterday was only three months out of the academy. A job well done.

Eddie Dean 10th Nov 2018 06:25


Originally Posted by chuboy (Post 10307122)
That was, rightfully, subject to quite some criticism indeed - especially since it was the special response team and not your run of the mill beat cops who ended up wounding the hostages.

It turns out the chap who fired the only bullet yesterday was only three months out of the academy. A job well done.

And also well done to the two or three blokes who waded into the fracas.

WingNut60 10th Nov 2018 10:14

One report mentioned that he was tasered before being shot.
If true, then the tasering had no visible effect.
Perhaps because of clothing worn.


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