Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders
 

Hello everybody.

I would like to make a thread for unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders to come and post their story/journey and situations.
And also for everyone else to share their opinion on the matter also.

Often we hear that there are lots of unemployed fATPL holders and flight school grads but not many are posting on here and sharing/ updating us on their journey.

It's really important we hear the stories and journies of these people it seems only those who have managed to secure a job posting their stories on here and social media, youtube etc.

Please don't be afraid to post your story (Don't include your real name though) if you post on here since you are not using your real name its not like the employers are going to come on here and be able to identify some fATPL holder and blacklist you so don't be afraid.

Also if someone says something not nice about your post or calls your opinion stupid please dont stop posting or get upset. It could still be a valuable contribution that others could benefit from. Its important to hear from as many people as possible on this thread whether people agree or not.

(Hope this thread is in the appropriate forum if not please move it to the one which is more appropriate maybe it belongs in the wannabes training forum but I thought it belonged here?)

Thanks everyone, hope this helps some of us

I think it is a very interesting idea, as it can help people trying to start such as myself to see the possible bad side of things...

Looking forward to hearing from you guys!

P.

Hello everybody.

I finished my training last November with the MCC as the last step.
I couldnt find any jobs for many months and I find a position as customer service agent in MAD airport which is close to my home.
Could not afford pay to fly or any related program and I was completely down.
After many months I got a chance by pilotix to get two interviews (LOT and Stobart Air) I passed both of them and picked the second as it is more interesting and offered better benefits.
Ill start my type rating soon.

I must say that after studing for the EASA exams and putting a lot of money in the process and not getting any flying job was really really frustrating and it was a really bad period in my life...

I wish you guys all to find a paid flying job as soon as possible because not many people related to this industry can unerstand what we get through during and after the training.

Good luck to you all!

I did my licence a few years ago as a late starter after a good well paid career in another industry.

I was fortunate to get an airline job from the start and to be honest I hated it from about the second week. I am used to working in a polite, fair environment and the culture within the airline I was in was schoolboyish. Told what to do, when, where and how. Roster was mad, always a mess, and changes ALL the time when you have things going on in your life, hotels at the cheap end of the market. It was exciting first time flying the aircraft but once you have done it, its quite boring and the SIMs are always repeating the same thing, again and again but slightly different. Its a very repetitive job in a very sterile environment and I found it quite boring and something I got over pretty quick. Playing football with friends is much more fun and exciting.

I spent alot of time and money to do it which on one side was a complete waste but I wanted to do it and I did, so it was a success on the other side.

Am back in the other industry and I am much happier appreciating what I had even more.

Oh yes the money is very low for what you do. I think the younger you are the more you can put up with the BS, stress etc and the business case for the investment is more worthwhile as you can earn good £ quicker before family commitments come along and quality of life is more important.

Thanks for your story!

Could you tell me how many airlines did you apply for and what did you do to prepare for entry?

Kind regards.

P.

I have to say that I think what Bryan_Air is saying - while a fair point from his own experiences - highlights simply how subjective a thread topic this is.

If it's what you've always wanted to do, as it was for me, then keep at the several applications but go in with your eyes open. You'll find something eventually i'm sure. Of course, that also depends on your experiences throughout flight school and your passes etc. I actually feared I'd not get anything having failed my CPL and partialled my IR but I'd say the hardest part from that is getting in front of the airline. Once you're there, or have a chat on the phone or whatever then I found they didn't really mind the slip ups as long as you had the explanations for them.

I do agree with what Bryan_Air is saying in some sense in that yes the job can be repetitive. Airliners tend to fly themselves most of the time and once you've flown the routes a few times you could - figuratively - fly them with your eyes closed. Then again, at my outfit no two days have been the same and I'm still absorbing new knowledge on the daily. There's always some sort of logistical challenge that makes it variable enough. It is very much a lifestyle you must marry yourself too but from my own personal (subjective) opinion, it has smashed expectations. I get fo fly for a carrier that, in my opinion, looks after its staff and the pay isn't all that bad. Pay is a topic which will forever have pilots moaning, as the media will clearly highlight, but as a new starter I'm content with what I get, where i'm based, the aircraft I fly and the overall day-to-day.

I applied to close to 20 airlines, heard back from about 4 of those and started my type rating about 9 months after I completed my MCC at the first airline I interviewed with. At one point I feared I'd not find the money to revalidate my IR as I was somewhat struggling to pay the loans back as it was, but thankfully didn't come to that. My best bit of advice is cater your CVs to aviation and focus on attributes each of them airlines are looking for. You'll find all of that on their websites of course.

All the best -- whether you're an fATPL or an aspiring cadet :-)

For those asking:

• 86% ATPL Average, 1st Time Passes
• 2nd Series, 1st Attempt CPL
• 1st Series, 2nd Attempt IR
• Pass at MCC (no mark downs, or "Slows" as some schools put it)

I applied to 23 airlines where I meet the requirements published on their websites. 5 of them came back to me just telling me to patiently wait.
For preparing to potential interviews I was using PILAPT tests available online such as flightdeckfriends and similars.
I applied and got accepted in pilotix program and they got me a spot to two interviews (on of which I applied myself but they never came back to me) that I both passed with materials and tests that they provided me with.

Pilotix?
 

Anybody care to explain what pilotix is?
I've heard of it on a few occasions, but whenever I google it, I only get irrelevant results.

Have we passed the peak for Pilot recruitment?
 

I am no economy expert, but I think that until Qatar 2022 there will still be recruitment.
​​​​​​Brexit and the 737MAX issue raised uncertainties in Europe, but I still see lots of jobs offer in the rest of the world. If you are lucky to be able to work in the US, you will get a job as long as you have a heart bit.
I reckon at the beginning of 2020 we will see again be opportunities and Ryanair will start recruitment again.

Apparently some sort of recruitment agency that does NOT run or endorse P2F (if you believe the website)...

Also, they have rebranded to "myPilotix"... Try googling that ;)

Note: never used, nor do I endorse them in any way

"Bored, oh no one ever told me that before, bare face lying to the captain, lack of interest, unwillingness to do any amount of research without being spoonfed the answer, lots of deflection off topic when tough questions are being put to them, lack of personal responsibility". Unfortunately traits that are becoming all to common in the RHS these days. Many would spend the turnaround on their phone if allowed to. Most never take out a manual in the cruise and wonder how come they don't know the Part A and B. Most are happy to troll out the same script as a brief which quickly unravels when they ask you if you have any questions and they are unable to deal with the necessary. Still these heroes all insist that they are ready for command. Thankfully the checking and training departments are thinning them out. On a brighter note there are still the shining stars that come through flight schools as well which make for a pleasant day and you are only to happy to offer guidance to.

Can't find this Pilotix thing even with Google.

Does pilotix charge anything for pilots ?

Hey guys....let me just shoot the breeze a bit here with some blunt observations. But first, congratulations to those who have reached the end of their initial training pipeline, got their fATPL, and are "job ready" enough in search of their first piloting job.

I'm an ATPL with almost 30 years experience. My first piloting job was as a co-pilot in an IFR operation. I paid for all my own training up to CPL. IR and initial ME type rating was paid for by the employer. I've never earned $1000/day (although some of my colleagues do). Now here's the rub. My mum had the gutters on her roof replaced the other day. The guy who did it had no formal qualifications, had made no investment in his training, required no prior experience in any particular field, doesn't need to keep a medical, works his own hours when and where he wants. In other words, about exactly the opposite to what a new pilot starting out in a flying career is expected to do, and with virtually no hope of earning the sort of money you can earn by gluing a bit of roof gutter together. After expenses for the materials required for the job he earned $1000 for less than a days work. Only consequence for any deficiency in his work being a leaking gutter. No big deal. Any deficiency in your work as a pilot, well, the possible consequences are obvious.

My boy is thinking about what he wants to do when he finishes school. I'm encouraging him to fixing gutters, and discouraging him from any thought of being a pilot.

Whatever you choose to do, apply your best effort and hopefully the rewards will come. If you want to earn a decent living, with a lifestyle of your own choosing, without the burden of onerous responsibilities, learning to use a caulking gun might be a better option than learning to fly a plane. Good luck to you all.

I am just giving my experience, tbh I would probably say a bit entitled having experienced better terms and condition beforehand.

Yes, I was average and I struggled with the general operation, I felt contained and couldnt have time off when I wanted and had to turn up and do what your told most of the time. You have to absolutely love every minute of it and when you dont it becomes a total drag, constant checkins and yes sir pls sir etc, conversations all the same pilot bids, roster, flight pay etc.

Not bored as in, nothing to do, fed up of it would be more accurate. Once you have flown something big I just found it very very repetitive and you need to like that mindset, it didnt work for me and I got sick of it.

The whole industry as a pilot is very hard graft/responsibilities work etc and your on your beck and call especially when responsibilities come along its a struggle to manage and caused problems at home, its clear to see why a lot of single people working there or as a short term career. If you look at TCX possibly about to fail and BA at the other end, its such a hard operating environment to subject your working life and family to.

gulli Bell makes a good point, as a pilot you will only make a wage and what you earn is set out to the penny. I have seen a chap I grew up with start his own business and he can make over 250k a year through his company and works on average 3-4 days a week of his choosing, it took him over 10 years to get there but he is in a good spot and he is in early 40s. Nice house, kids in private school and only travels for (NICE) holidays as works locally.

Thanks for the replies guys - it seems you have all been successful which is awesome.

So far nobody has come on here and said
"I completed training 5 years ago and never got a flying job despite applying to every airline and flight instructor position, I'm now in massive debt and considering whether I should give up and stop wasting money keeping my ratings current"

Do you there just aren't that many people in that position out there?
Or are they just not in this forum, or in denial and don't want to post and admit it (even though its anonymous)?

Depending on your level of experience. For me it would be around 600 euro/year. I can get interviews without their help so I don't see where they exactly stand.

@ yap 800, you dont need to pay for any of these schemes such as Kura, pilotix, wings alliance etc, they are for mugs! You can do it yourself by researching online etc, go to one of the free pilot events and save yourself the money or read the posts here, most pilots help each other. Its a well trodden path airline recruitment, its quite straight forward really and just differs a little on each airline.

The only ones that dont get jobs are the ones that give up. I have met a few that never got an airline job who wanted one and they go back to what they did before, if you cant get one at home then you need to go abroad and do one of the eastern european etc ones then come home with experience etc. You cant really speak your mind and say I was robbed by an integrated scheme because they will stop you getting a job etc so people who dont succeed would normally keep it to themselves. You are guaranteed nothing in this industry except you will be messed around and expected to be the most flexible of people and pay for most things yourself including hotels.

If I had my time over again, I wouldnt do it to be honest, 3 years of my life and 80k I spent maybe but then if I hadnt of done it I would of wished I had done it so catch 22 or I would of liked to have done it in the 80s or 90s. TCX going down the pan now just shows the very hard market conditions you work in, BA highest paid on average I think and they strike, Avanti and some other airlines all gone bust recently, even Ryanair saying a year off unpaid leave or we will sack you. TCX charged via Iago £750 for the interview, what other industry does that to attend an interview? There is clearly alot of over capacity in the market hence all these airlines going bust and bases closing and I think people fly less than they used to now.

Pilots are expected to just suck it all up as BAU while terms and conditions deteriorate further.....

Yap - many have not made it unfortunately. A combination of bad timing and/or crap at the interview/sim means they haven't nailed the interview. The reason why they're not posting here is they have drifted away. Don't under estimate the numbers. There are a lot who've fallen by the wayside.

The bad timing is worth bearing in mind. If you finish your training during a down town, then your IR skills degrade very quickly. Keeping your IR skills is very expensive.

Yes absolutely true.
I finished in 2013. The market was horrendous.

Send out like 350 applications in the first year. All custimized to the particular airline I was applying for so not just copy paste. I only received a handful generic e mails back stating they are looking for pilots with experience or they were not looking for pilots at the time. Very very depressing, but I decided to apply for a job as FA. Got myself a job as an FA in a small operator which was flying the Dash for a big European Airline. After some time I moved to that mainline as FA on Airbus. Saddly they went bust.

In meanwhile I kept applying. My first assessments I had in 2017. Saddly not succesful or succesful but still didnt get the job. I was about to give up until I got another shot beginning of 2018. There I got the job on a B737.

Worked in that company until 1.5 week ago and moved straight onto my new employer flying again B737.

I now have some useful experience and I get contacted now by different companies and recruiters if I am interested to fly for them.
also I passed an assessment in another company a few weeks ago. I was in the hard position to decide for whom I want to work for.

All I can say from my experience. Do whatever needed to get your foot between the door. Once you gathered 500 multicrew hours, doors will open, but also networking. Very important. I got my present job because of an friend of mine who got me in contact with this company.

I have another assessment coming up in another company also.

Believe in a good outcome and do a lot of networking. Once you have your first break life will get much better.

Good luck to all the ones looking for the first break.

A person I know well went to Dubai to do the Flydubai type rating with possible interview at end. He was sure he would get it. He made a mess of his checkride and didn't even get the interview. He gave up and owed over 100k pounds.

P40 Warhawk, thank you for sharing your story, and well done for hanging in there and making it happen.

Do you think your experience as a flight attendent helped to get the job and show employers that you were still trying to keep in touch and not give up?

Would you mind sharing how and where you trained e.g. modular/integrated wich school (I'm not going to hijack this thread with this question but good to have context in relation to your story), how you performed during training etc?

What alternative ways of building experience did you look for?
did you apply for flight instructor jobs also?

Also I notice your location is germany is this where you are from or where you live at the moment - where are you from btw?

Thank you for sharing this story,
do you know where/what school and when this person trained integrated modular etc?
how long between finishing training and getting the type rating with possible interview at the end?

After the person gave up, what then?
did this person ever keep trying to get opportunities or just gave up completely and never tried to keep rating current or get more opportunities?
What are they doing now instead?
Any chance of asking them to come on here and share more of their story?

And how about you, are you a pilot right now or in training or aspiring to start or doing something else?

I keep in middle where I am from but yes I do live in Germany ;) .

Started training in Baltic Aviation Academy. Integrated. We were first Ab Initio ATPL Students of BAA. At that time they only had ONE C152, but soon got 3 Tecnam P2002JF's and later one C172SP G1000. The MEP was rented from another school.

I was not much of an Ace, but I passed all exams and checkrides in first attempt. That was also my goal. Especially at that time there were some airlines where you can only apply when you have only first time passes.

Graduated in 2013. Nothing possible to get a job.

If Airlines see FA experience as a good experience is hard to say. I enjoyed the job a lot. Had many nice colleagues and I am very thankful I obtained also experience behind the cockpit door and the interaction with the passengers. A lot of useful skills there.

In meanwhile still nothing happening. I made the decision to go for self sponsored TR B737, which I also obtained in BAA. Straight after finishing I had an assessment which I sadly didnt pass. 1 year later via someone I know in my former company I got in that company and obtained around 500 on the B737 and now in my second company.

Good morning all, happened to look at PPRuNe for the first time in a long time and saw this thread and decided that I would contribute my ‘warts and all’ story.

I’ll start by saying that redsnail is entirely right, there are an awful lot of people who have given up and those people have drifted away from PPRuNe so you will be unlikely to hear anything from them.

I started training modular in 2006 when recruitment opportunities were reasonable and qualified in 2008 as the world went into recession (great timing). I did it all with my own money and no loans needed.

My training record is first time passes in all written exams with 93% average and 2nd series 1st attempt passes in CPL and MEIR and straight passes in MCC and JOC.

I was fortunate enough to get called for assessment at Ryanair but made a complete pigs ear of the sim check and no surprise got the PFO email from them.

As a responsible(ish) adult with a family to support I went back to my previous life as an engineer which provided for my family while I kept everything in date and tried to find that elusive first flying job. I would have loved to have instructed but there were no instructor jobs going and instructor salary would not have provided for my family.

Later I was also fortunate enough to be invited for assessments with Stobart and Logan, unfortunately I was out of the country on a family holiday for the Stobart assessment and the day before the Logan assessment I woke up with D&V which was the start of a virus that laid me up for three days so was unable to attend. Despite my continued pleas to Stobart and Logan and a Dr letter confirming to Logan that I was genuinely unfit to travel I was never given alternative dates for assessment.

Earlier this year just before I was going to renew my medical and IR, I was involved in a fall at home that broke a couple of bones in my foot. I had to wear the ‘boot of shame’ for a couple of months after the fall until I could walk properly again. Even after I could walk again my foot was nowhere near strong enough to get my lapsed medical back or cope with sustained asymmetric flight.

This brings me up to now where I am in a position where I could renew my lapsed medical and IR but having witnessed the collapse of Thomas Cook and Aigle Azur plus Adria are on the brink of collapse (their aviation authority have given them one week to sort their finances out before their operating licence is removed) also I do not believe that Flybe are out of the woods plus RYR are telling pilots to either take 12 months unpaid leave, relocate to less popular bases or face job cuts.

When you add in uncertainty over Brexit regarding freedom of movement and employment within the EU for UK nationals combined with several respected economic think tanks warning of another imminent global recession, I have come to the very tough decision that to put myself through medical and IR renewal and staying reasonably current would simply be throwing good money after bad.

I am still working as an aerospace technical consultant which pays well, is commutable from home and the people that I work with are pleasant enough but the work itself does not inspire or fulfil me in any way.

I have tried not to be too downbeat and I do not regret training as I have no debt and have continued to provide for my family throughout the process.

I genuinely wish everyone currently seeking employment or currently training nothing but success in their endeavours and hope that if you make it then it’s all that you hope it to be.

Regards,

Mike

Thanks for sharing your views magicmick, flying really isnt that glamorous and its a slog of a job. Its a bit like the emperor has no clothes....

Disgusting news from RYR, MOL probably a billionaire asking his staff to 'apply' for a year off unpaid leave, the guy has no soul!

Welcome to aviation!

To add even more fuel to the fire, Adria have now filed for bankruptcy and XL in France have suspended all flights, I hope that this is the last of it but I’m not convinced. Definitely not a good time to be looking for flying jobs as a low hours recently qualified candidate. Difficult times ahead.

I genuinely wish you luck! You have been very unlucky and you deserve that job!

Best of luck!

Thank-you
 

Thank-you so much for your kind words. In many ways I have been lucky in that I am healthy, I have a wonderful wife and son, I have a well paid job that isn’t the job that I dreamed of and doesn’t enthuse or inspire me but it allows me to provide for my family, pay for my son to attend a better school than my wife and I ever went to and give him the opportunities and education that we never had. I also live in a nice area with no debts outstanding on the house or anywhere else, I drive a reasonable car and have a great circle of friends. The only piece missing is the flying job that would make everything complete, but as many people have pointed out, it’s just a job and after a period of time it would become just day to day work with it’s bad points as well as good points. I do not regret flying training and if I had not trained I would probably have tortured myself with ‘what if’ questions for the rest of my life. I am not bitter from the experience and I would never tell anyone not to train or to give up their dream, I truly hope that the dark days for aviation lift soon and that those that are searching for their first flying job now and those that are currently training enjoy every success.

I think one of if not the most important points and something I had slight hope this thread could change :(
But they dont have to Identify themselves on here so can't they just tell their story but not share their face name or exact details -

Its strange (maybe annoying if they are just choosing not to share this on purpose - sorry guys) that I cant even find one or a few L3/CTC OAA/CAE FTE grads saying "I didnt get a flying job for 5 years and am now crippled by debt" why won't they tell their story if they can do it anonymously?
(granted it wont have the same effect anonymously as its less provable/believable but still its a usual thing for people to write about an outcome that has been bad for them people do this for other things like product reviews places they stay restaurants etc)

Do you think that on this forum, we can help to encourage these people to share their story, even if only anonymously?

Free pilot events - I will have to look into this maybe this is a key thing that I didn't research, thank you.
Ah yes that it true - I notice the wings alliance schools you can just contact each school and organise it yourself - maybe the "wings alliance" etc is them trying to make a brand by joining so that they can maybe get placements and compete with the big integrated schools?
Thank you - do you think hanging in there a long time is key to success - how long usually before employers think that you are too long out of training (despite keeping everything current and even an aviation related job?)

you mean sometimes if they cant get a job soon they just give up?
eastern european ones to get experience? you mean airlines or training schools?
Thank you there were a lot of valuable points in that post

Money is an important factor as in most cases you have to pay your first rating.

I also had to pay for my first rating. Nevertheless price was kinda ok.

Nowadays almost none of airlines pay your rating if you are a rookie. And if they do, there is a bond which is of course understandable. Usually they subtract money from your salary for a certain time so all in all you still pay for it yourself.

Anyway I got my first job through networking. Very important factor. In meanwhile I just started at my second employer a few weeks ago and have a few more options as well.

If you get in and obtain your experience, say 500 hrs multicrew ops, then you move on pretty quick.

I fly B737 ACMI ops and right now I am enjoying my off time at the pool on a tropical island.

Of course I admit that I also had dark times. I was about to give up also, but once you are in, you are in. Hangin there ladies and gents. When you are in you know you made the right choice.

Yap,
I finished my flight training six years ago, fortunately without any debts. I have applied to numerous companies, even attended interviews at the same companies for couple of times during this six year period. Revalidate my ratings every year. And still nothing - fail final interviews usually. It looks recruiters do not like me. But having a backup plan is a good idea and allows me to develop myself in other topic. And most important!!! Telling everyone else (apart of aviation industry) that you are a pilot still drops their jaw and opens many doors.

As couple of people said before, piloting is not necessary very interesting job, unless you enter flight testing industry. From the money perspective, there are plenty of jobs requiring decision making skills (that you as a pilot possess) that would allow you to earn much more than pilots do. Just open your mind.

All the best ;)