500 HOURS LT not much help
 

Hey guys,

Thought I would share my experience with this 500 hours LT game

I have just finished a program of 500 hours LT on the B737-800 I am not much further on than when I left flight school.(For sure a competent operator of the B737 now but that's about it)

Graduated at the end of 2011 with my fATPL & IR, decided I wanted to fly the jets as that's what really interested me from the beginning! , so went and did the TR on 737NG with a TRTO in Miami, then waited for 6 months to start the LT.

Have my 500 hours on type now, plus my initial training so 750TT

However it does not seem to get employers excited!! I have e-mailed my resume to every 737 operator in the world using Wikipedia list of 737 operators and have had a handful of replies! & they only state that I don't meet there experience required!!

Anyhow its my own risk, and I have used all my money up now, I don't even have enough to keep current!! luckily I have landed a normal job to keep up with the repayments on the loan

I have been the test rat here, so anyone thinking of 500 hours LT, yes it's good experience, but....not likely to get you employed earning $10,000 PCM thereafter.

Not sure where to go from here, any advice???:confused:

Go away troll :ok:

You need a good 2500hrs on type to have any chance in the current jobs market. I suggest go and repeat your P2F package another 4 times.

Your current situation shouldn't come as any great surprise.

Sorry you feel this way, but why do you feel I can't share my experience and ask for advice:ugh:

Christ, if someone with 500 hours on type can't a land job, looks like its gonna be a hard slog for me going the GA route :ugh:

At risk of stating the obvious, if you thought 500hrs makes you an experienced pilot who can walk into any job, you've just had your wakeup call. 500hrs is next to nothing I'm afraid.

TorqueTonight - Sure I am aware that 500 hours does not make me eligible to walk in to any job.

I did however think that it would put me in a better position than when I left my flight school, but it seems to be the same or worse!:ugh:

I just don't understand where all these pilots flying the thousands of jets that take off & land every day got there experience from to be able to do what they do. HOW DO YOU GET THERE!!

This aviation game is like a war I am never going to win! all I want to do is fly:ugh:

Leon1983, as you've just found out there's a huge difference in "paying for 500 hours" and getting a job.
You may have added 500 hours to your logbook but is it viewed as experience by other operators? Obviously not.
BTW - why won't the company whom you bought the 500 hours from employ you? When you've answered that, then you may have some insight into your predicament.

How did I get to the left seat of a jet? By working my way up through many jobs. Note, I said jobs.

Redsnail - it is nice to hear from a current Captain, in my previous airline I got along with everyone really well and was liked by the majority of the Captains.

The reason I didn't get kept on was because there where more first officer's waiting to start the LT and they had no vacancy for me.

There where regular first officers at the airline but again they had 3 or 4 thousand hours.

I was told that buying 500 hours is just the way things are done now & you will get a job, but it's not the case.

I just want to add that I did a good job for the airline and got positive feedback from LFI's during my time there, I am a competent operator of the B737NG.

what would you recommend be the best way forward for me now? given that I don't have any money left.:confused:

Also Redsnail, if you don't mind would be able to post your journey to the Left seat? nothing too personal, just a time line of events??

Airlines that take "cadet" pilots usually have a significant input into their training and early development. At this level, few are interested in anyone that falls outside of this criteria.

Experienced pilots are likely to have significant and relevant experience from either a military or commercial background. It is here that "500 hours on type" as a minimum level of relevant experience is sometimes stipulated.

For an airline that is a TRTO, providing a type rating and subsequent line training isn't particularly problematic, and in the case of low experienced pilots "cadets" most would regard it as vital.

Even when recruiting experienced pilots, the background and acquisition of relevant experience is an important factor. There is a great deal of resource, and companies can (and are) choosy about the type of experience they are looking for. There are factors that can be real "red flags" when it comes to background. I am afraid that a lot of these "opportunities" fall into that category.

Quality companies expect quality candidates. They want training that falls within their own definition of quality (and that is usually their own, or a company they acknowledge as providing same.) Less quality companies, are likely to be deriving income from this form of training, rather than seeking employees who have already availed themselves of it. Obviously, this is a reality you are now becoming aware of.

Beazlebub - you make a nice point in your message, & before I even started training for my PPL this is exactly what I thought of the industry.

However somewhere along the way in my Commercial training I started to convince myself that I could be the pilot in the smart uniform walking through the airport, about to fly a 50 million dollar aircraft somewhere :O.

The reality of what you wrote Beazle is so true, I guess I just thought "everything would be ok in the end"

So what should I do now? just be happy for the time I did get to fly the B737 and be done with it? or continue sending the resumes out?

I think I am pretty convinced I will never get that job at BA, but do you think lesser airlines could be a possibility?:confused:

No. Keep working away at the opportunities as they arise, and keep networking. I am simply pointing out some of the realities.

You might well end up flying for BA, I have no idea. Whatever you do I wish you success. Where there is a will, there is often a way! Neither should set your sights or your ambitions any lower.

You have highlighted one of the many potential pitfalls along the career path, but that doesn't mean it is insurmountable.

Good luck.

Thank you Beazle I will keep trying without hope or agenda :)

Are you also an Airline Captain Beazle? like I said to Redsnail would you mind posting a timeline of events leading up to this job? nothing too personal just to paint a picture of what the career path looks like.

John Smith - That is a harsh post :sad:

I have only been flying for a couple of years, I don't know any better I am afraid.

But I doubt little old me would bring down you & your co workers T & C's, like Beazle said the good reputable company's want nothing to do with inexperienced pilots like myself.

I was just told that buying 500 hours is the way things are done now, I worked very hard at my studies and have put a lot of money in to this dream, I may well give up...

I am seeking advice on what is next for me, I am a genuine, kind & caring person with a passion for flight, that is all. I just love flying and all things aviation.

All the captains I flew with said I was a good chap and to keep working hard.

The 'eureka' moment! Your predicament is unfortunate but an entirely predictable consequence of the risks that you took.

'I was just told that....' A top tip for dealing with flying schools, airlines, agencies, and in fact for life in general is: beware of taking advice from those who stand to profit from your decisions.

I'm not sure whether you're genuine and naive or trolling but if it spreads the word to other potential suckers, the replies are not entirely wasted. You're best bet would be to try to work up from the bottom: try your luck in Maun, instruct at a flying club etc. None of these routes offer guarantees but at the moment you have nothing. Very, very few people go direct from training into a paid jet job. The rest of us found our own routes to reach that point.

Wrong. Try negotiating a pay rise when there are ever more people willing to do your job for less - or in the case of your 500 hrs, to pay to do it. You may see your contribution as insignificant, but keep chipping away and soon there's nothing left.

My story is sprayed all over PPRuNe.
Where I'm from originally there were no cadet schemes and the military wasn't an option.
So did what we all did then and got a job bush flying and worked up from there. Driving several thousand km to look for work and networking all the way.
Once I had the relevant experience moved to the next job.
It's incredibly competitive in Australia to get a jet job and fortunately I also held a British passport so I shifted to the UK in 2001. Yes, that year. When I arrived here (UK) I had over 4,500 hours.

Many people fall into the trap of believing the flight school publicity of "learn to fly at our school and you'll be in a jet on graduation". As Beazlebub said, only those on a tagged scheme will that happen. Yes, Ryanair have taken a lot of new pilots but that's another story - and expense.

You've explained the pitfall WRT buying hours. There's no job at the end because there's someone else lining up to pay to play. :ugh:

Advice. Aim lower and/or prepare to move. There is no magic solution. Just hard work.

Torquetonight - I am a genuine pilot, not trolling or trying to upset the community.

I don't think I would make a very good instructor as I went down the Modular self study route, and although I passed all the exams there is still knowledge deficiency's in my aviation knowledge that need improving.

I would feel so silly if a student asked me a question and I couldn't answer him/her :sad:

I do like the sound of Maun, but the pay is not enough to cover my monthly expenses so I am in a catch 22 :(

I appreciate your feedback though, what are you flying yourself sir?

Redsnail - Thank you for sharing your journey I bet you have a few story's to tell

Thanks for the advice, may it be a lesson to all considering 500 hours, it will clearly do more harm than good for your career, I wish I could get my time & money back :(

In my case, I had just finished my training, the bank had approved the loan I had not even sat in a 737 and watching them come in to land at my local airport I just could not resist the temptation!:ugh: all that and the "it will all be ok in the end" voice inside my head!!!

Granted though after my first 50 hours the novelty had worn off, it was still very enjoyable and fun, but no butterflies in the stomach or a big cheesy grin all the way to the airport after the first 50 or so hours on type ;)

Leon, by your post it is so OBVIOUS you not only DID NOT do the 500 hour line training but hated P2f and want to create a fake account so that no one do p2f and 500 hour LT again.

Because you know that if everyone have 500 hours on type, they will be ahead of you.

This is your reason for not instructing PPLs but you think a high performance twin jet with hundreds of paying passengers is the right place for you. Good grief! And if after 50 sectors airline flying is not flicking your switch any more than I think the answer to your predicament is obvious to everyone. Sorry if the replies are not quite as positive as you would like. Call it tough love.

Your answers swing my opinion more towards troll but as I said, if it opens the eyes of some young dreamers than all is not lost. You ask what I do: was a military pilot, now airline.

Lingdee, Ahead, as in 99% of the way back in the queue, as opposed to last in the queue. Only the front 20% are going to get jobs though.

Lingdee - This is not a fake account, I genuinely did the line training, if you think doing 500 hours will get you a job go ahead and do it & report back to me with your findings! I think you will find the reality very sobering

Torquetonight - Yes perhaps its time to call it a day, but remember there was always a TRI/TRE or LFI Captain flying with me so safety was never compromised, I am not saying I am a dummy and know nothing, I feel I know the B737 and its systems a lot better than perhaps the subject of Meteorology, I was just pointing out I would not feel comfortable instructing others until such a time that I improved my basic knowledge again.

The 737 takes a long time to learn, and you can lose sight of the basics that's all I was saying, for example at this moment in time, I would not be able to tell you how to calculate pressure altitude. I would need to look at the books.

I am not a troll either

Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for you even though I think you are largely responsible for your misfortune. Nobody would like to be in your position and all of us have been through (and are still going through) the struggles of trying to make a success of this industry.

I am surprised, to put it politely, that after completing ATPL theory, CPL/ME/IR training, MCC, maybe JOC, and 500 hours of professional type flying, you cannot calculate pressure altitude. I think you're right that there are gaps in your knowledge. Perhaps the reason this surprises me is that my, and some of the other posters, training backgrounds were of a higher quality than yours. This completes the circle that others have mentioned of airlines wanting to recruit products of known quality training, and that by taking the shortcut of P2F you may have 500 hours but not quality training or experience. You can buy hours, but you probably can't buy a job.

Additionally the magic 500 hours on type is normally a filter to thin out the tsunami of applications that any job ad normally receives. If everybody buys 500 hrs then the filter will be set at 1000 hrs, then 1500 then 2000 - you get the picture. At that rate you could hit mandatory retirement before you ever turned a profit in this industry. 500 on type may be a common filter in the job ads but with less than 2.5K to 3k you'd be struggling to find work. Would anyone really pay for that much P2F? Where does it end?

Yes this is true, I self studied everything never had a class room theory session so there are a few things I just never fully understood.

Would have been great to have a fully integrated course, but I went modular pay as you go, doing the theory on my own, and the flight school just wanted to pass everyone!

I will have to see what the future holds, but like you say there are just so many people at the entry level making it near impossible to stand out

I heard on another forum that Cathay had to change a database because there current system could not cope with the amount of applications & everyone had to re-apply.

Ah wish I still had my money and just flew privately!! I have to work an early morning cleaning job 5-8 then my regular job (customer service) 9-5 and then I have a 3rd job in a bar on weekends 7 till late! and all this just to pay back the huge loan I took for the training and LT, I have to say if it had paid off and I had 10 grand per month coming in it would have been worth it, but jeez grounds for depression.com

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I appreciate it and I wish you well in your current flying jobs, you worked hard for them, enjoy :ok:

What about captain incapacitation? Who's going to babysit you then? BTW, are they really using instructors for all of the 500 hours? If they are, it speaks volumes about the trust they have in their training department or the quality of trainees. My bet is on the latter though...

1. 737 is not that complicated aircraft
2. Sorry to say that, but if you cannot calculate pressure altitude, you have no place being involved in commercial operations - be it with C172 or A380.

I am type rated on the 737, I have all relevant licenses and have passed an OPC, do you think I have never flow an areoplane before???:ugh:

if you think that then there is certainly no place for you in aviation either, there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots my friend.

Oh I'm sorry if this is so important why I have never once used it in all my LT hours??:ugh:

Despite extreme temptation, I am not going to engage on this one any further than this. Suffice to say that it is about solid foundations, depth of knowledge and that old fashioned airmanship thing. This isn't so much a dig at you personally as a comment on the output of the training system and the reasons why many recruiters aren't impressed by it.

I think you probably use it did during your line training - pressure altitude is simply what is displayed when 1013 is set on the altimeter...

A friend of mine joined Lion Air on P2F about 2.5 years ago, and few weeks ago I got this e-mail from him, after no news for maybe 7 - 8 months.

"Still in Lion air, unfortunately, And now have around 1700 hours on the B737 Ng, and 2300 total Time. But it is not easy to find a better job. In fact, in the world of aviation, the companies prefer hire a young monkey.
I am so disappointed with this statement.

I have a friend, who was offered the B777 job but he told me the salary is ****, and you have to pay for the TR.....so he decided to stay in Lion Air."


I find this both sad and compelling, but this is the truth of the industry, it is being destroyed for all with the illusion of a good future career once you get passed 500 hours.

There is not much sympathy from me to your case either, chance was taken, and the writing has been on the wall all the time.

I almost did a line training program on the A320 6 months ago but after thinking long and hard over the few months I decided against it. I had made a plan to instruct in the US this September and build up hours over the next two years and then hope that the airline industry will have improved in the mean time.

I continued to network, get myself out there and do some GA flying at my local aero club and continued to save for my Instructor Rating. Then out of the blue I get a call from an A320 operater in Asia offering an interview. I flew down immediately and landed a job on the A320 (o hours on type). I'm so glad I didnt do the line training now! I move to Asia next month.

My point is don't do the line training, you will get a break guys, it will happen.

And for you Leon, keep networking, keep flying and dont give up. Go and bang on the doors that are hiring and hand in your CV. Airlines want to see your face!

Thought I would share my story!

Best of Luck!!

Truckflyer - your friend should have taken the 777 job

A320 - congrats on your new job!

Well there seems to be a twist in the tale for me! I don't know if fate has brought it on but I have been invited for an interview at Jet2! I will post my outcome! it all seems a bit surreal for now after I almost packed it in and complain on here!

What a strange twist of fate. Between 1826 on a Saturday night and 0651 on a Sunday morning our man has been called to an interview. The recruiting dept is working weekend night shifts!

Lean has now 'retired' from pprune. My money is definitely on troll, but young dreamers would still do well to learn from this thread.

To Leon
 

I don't really know if your story is real but I have doubts reading some of your posts!!

I you have 500 hrs on a 737 I see no reason why you would not be of interest to an Airline.I don't know where you live or if you are prepared to move to secure a job I am i the UK myself.

Straight off if you have those hours you could apply NOW to both Easyjet and Jet 2 there are probably more also.

If you are genuine you should be active everyday and a damn site more positive than you come across as many would kill to have those hours on their c.v. including me!

Just check everyday on here on ppjn.com and on latestpilotjobs.com that would be a start.

By the way if you have made your story up your pretty sick my friend and I suggest you go get some counselling!

To say that the 737 is not complicated by the way is :mad:! I recon you could fly it for 20 years and still be learning new things about the aircraft....

The problems with some of these line training programs, is that the companies baby - sit the crews, I have seen this a few times from people who have done it.

There is a few guys I know, did 300 hours on A320, and they was always with heavy crew, they was very rarely allowed to land/handle the airplane.

To a320, I am guessing it is Cebu, ok different story, but know guys who have been there to, and the frustration is that you hardly get to fly the aircraft, only in special circumstances, with captains that are allowed to do this with you.

I think it will depend on how you do in the sim and on the base training whether you observe in the right hand seat or not, maybe I'm wrong.

I can understand if airlines don't want to give the keys of a $30million dollar jet to a guy who was flying Cessna's. I would probably be the same if I had an airline.

If I have to observe for 200 hours so be it, certainly beats sitting on my ass gaining 0 hours.

We have to start somewhere, look at the positives!

Too much negativity on pprune sometimes.

Don't get me wrong, it is just the mentality over there for FO's with low experience, I know somebody first hand that has been there, and told me. Sure he came back with many hours, and got a job, and he is a good pilot, however he also told me the frustrating thing there i Captain SkyGod, and that is regardless of how well you handle.
However I agree, it is better than doing nothing, and it is better than P2F, but just be prepared for the opposite of what you expect is good CRM.

Wow, I am impressed with all these negative comments by Pilots who have lived and still live "the good life". Truth is the market at the moment asks for a minimum of 500 hrs turbine time and maybe 1000 TT for first officers. The real catch is to get those 500 hours turbine time.

There are only 2 options: 1) Airline hires you as first officer (not common)
2) You pay 50,000 for the Line training

I m glad you had the courage to do it. A few years ago, I totally condemned this behavior of paying to fly. But the world changes and if you don't do it, somebody smarter comes around and does it and now flies for Ryanair. And I just want to make it clear, that we really have no desire to spend 50,000 more just to have a better chance to sit at the right seat. Although I disagree with some of Ryanair´s policies, they are pretty much the only company hiring first officer with zero time. We really have no other choice...

I have 600 hrs TT, have both FAA and JAA licences, I am an instructor, have my MCC and A32O type rating, have a degree in Mechanical and Aeronautical Design Engineering, I am totally Bilingual English and Spanish and cant land a job at the airlines. Sadly for me, Ryanair only gets pilots with 200 hours so I had too many hours and didn't qualify.

Most of the comments I have read are from fellow Pilots who are lucky to be flying right now and do not care about the future generations which by the way, come more prepared and experienced at this premature stage than previous generations (No offence). Problem is, that getting a job at the airlines today is much more difficult than before, and its pay its much worse. Nonetheless,we still commit to the pursue of our dream, because for some flying is our dream and passion. Very few pilots these days really enjoy and are grateful for flying.

When I say more prepared I mean, If captains or experienced FOs who are currently flying had to sit down and take the type of theoretical tests they make the new FOs take..most would fail miserably. For sure they are great pilots, but most of the new FOs are very well prepared.

The world is changing and either you adapt or you die. For the pilots living the life right now...we want a piece of the pie too and at least I know I am not giving up.

Well, there´s a clear and depth difference between pass an exam and real flying. And unfortunately, for pilot´s wallet, to pass an exam does not mean you´re ready for the real thing.
Those Captains and FOs currently flying, could score as good as anyone if they take a couple of months to prepare the exam. A cadet would need, at best, years of real operation to reach a similar level of experience.