Bankruptcy - Does it affect employment?
 

I ask this question for UK airlines mainly but if anyone has knowledge of world ailrines policy I'd be interested also.

I have been declared bankrupt over a year or so now. My question is this... if I hold all the qualifications necessary, is there anything that will prevent me from being employed by an airline with this bankruptcy status over my head?

Thanks in advance.

Not knowing every airline's requirements it's difficult to answer.

With your bankruptcy, are you permitted to hold a credit card?

If not, that may have some influence with the airlines that issue you a credit card to pay for accommodation and so on.

Are you aware that after 3 years your bankrupcy will be over and you should no longer need to declare it?

bankruptcy
 

It shouldnt, although its a question many employers are asking nowadays......

I was in a difficult position a few years ago and looked at IVA but after getting some good advice on it didnt bother as you might as well go bankrupt instead.

The only issue at the time was that for certain airlines being bankrupt or had been bankrupt made getting Captaincy questionable as you were seen to be 'influencable' by outside parameters.

Dont know if this is still the case, I bet there are some guys in chief positions in airlines on the brink of bankruptcy :eek:

I consider the only reason some airlines appear to favour employing integrated pilots over modular is because they have considerably more debt, thereby making them much better employees. They'll do anything to keep those repayments going - whereas non-indebted employees have a certain freedom that often leads to .... how shall I say this .... "independent spirits".

I doubt bankrutpcy itself would cause any problems but not having any debt might make an airline less likely to want to hire you - not that they are likely to find that out of course.

v6g,

BS post of the month award.

Are you telling me that a mod pilot would behave less professionally purely because if they were sacked, or given a slap on the wrist, they can just walk into another job purely because they are in less debt? Even during the boom times of the industry?

I've never heard so much rubbish in my life.

BS once again.

BalhamBob..you're wrong!
 

UK personal bankruptcies are normally dischaged after 12 months..not 3 years! Crash n burn, PM me if you want expertguidance. BM

It depends on the airlines training bond policy.

For example Eastern Airlines and Cityjet both have a training "bond" that is infact a loan taken out in your name (the airline makes the loan repayments for you during your bond period). This is a way to get around the tenuous nature of training bonds, because in the event of you leaving the company early the loan is in your name and you are personally liable (so in fact not really a training bond). I believe the Easyjet TRSS entry route use to entail a similar loan arrangement.

In this instance it is likely that due to your bankrupcy you will not be approved for the loan; hence in this case the airline will be unable to employ you. Further to this a number of companies have straight out Self Sponsored type ratings, so if you don't have the cash to pay for the rating then once more you may find it difficult to obtain a loan for such a scheme.
So while it doesn't stop you obtaining employment, it will certainly limit the companies that you are able to work for.

Errr, I think there was a touch of sarcasm in the post. Personally, I thought it was quite amusing. Guess you just have zero sense of humour. :ugh:

V6g actually deserves the BS post of the decade award. I don't understand where some of these guys get their facts from....surely not from this planet :yuk:

Ladies and gentlemen, here are the new industry requirements for a First Officer Position:

_ATPL Licence
_Minimum of 1500h total time
_ ICAO level 4 proficiency
_Proof of heavy debt (certified by an international bank)

Only those meeting those requirements will be contacted.

:D

It may be that some here work for employers who are more traditional in their approach to employees and aren't aware of what goes on elsewhere - to them I say v6g is making a statement of fact that applies to a great many newer companies, some of them very large indeed.

That, sadly, is the reality for many new guys, especially in some of the locos.

Betpump, actually I think he's implying the opposite. Indebted pilots are far more likely to be subservient to the company when contentious matters arise - and may well not act as robustly as others might. Would they strike, for instance?
If some won't even go sick/decline discretion because it "goes on my record and might affect command prospects" how do you suppose a £50,000 debt might affect their actions? They're only human, after all.

Well done you are right but it did used to be 3 years before the Enterprise Act kicked in. I dont pay much attention to Insolvency Law as I dont intent to go bankrupt.

As for PMing you for 'expertguidance' - no thanks! :)

Increasingly employers are carrying out a credit check on potential employees and asking them the question "have you ever been declared bankrupt?" I don't know the knock on effect if the answer is yes. Did you go down the integrated route and over extend yourself? sounds like it..

Unless there is a loan involved for training I'm intrigued to know why an employer would want to be so intrusive - what has that got to do with piloting?

I can't see why it would affect the issue of a company credit card as it is the company, not the cardholder who pays the bills.

Downright bloody nosey, if you ask me.

With a company credit card the responsibility for repaying the debt back is shared between the cardholder and the company. That means the company makes the payments each month until they can't/don't.
If the lender cannot retrieve the funds from the company guess who gets lumbered with the problem?

Just come to the USA! Every other airline is Bankrupt, why would they expect so much more from their employees' finances? JK

Kelly Hopper
 

Not sure about that but i could be wrong.

As far as I know the employee does not sign a CCA or gaurantor (spelt wrong probably).

Firstly the employer cannot ask and cannot use your bankruptcy against you.

Secondly its over in 2 years.

Thirdly its perfectly possible that some airlines prefer to have co-pilots (for that is what you will be) who are heavily in debt. You're much less likely to go on strike, pay union subs or complain when moved around.


I think personal bankruptcy is admirable and logical. The banks showered this money out recklessly - don't spend the next 25 years of your life slaving to pay them back the money they invented. It usury. Jesus showed them the finger - I suggest Wannabes heavily in debt do the same.


WWW


Usury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tunbridge Wells the 'debt capital of Europe' - Telegraph

He was crucified as well, so perhaps not the best analogy. Other peoples supposed recklessness, is neither a template nor an excuse for your own. I would venture that anybody who thinks it is, displays a level of responsibility and maturity that falls well short of that often sought out in prospective pilots.

Clearly there are people who find themselves in this situation, and where bankruptcy is unavoidable, for many of them there may be no choice or it is the lesser of two evils. Bankruptcy may be a way forward, but the suggestion that it has no future repercussions is naive and erroneous. A bankruptcy may be discharged, but that is a very different concept from the one where it no longer has to be declared if the question is asked, or that anyone would have to disregard it in deciding on an individuals risk status.

A friend of mine has two under his belt. It means nothing these days and the consequences are slight compared to the slog of repaying the debt plus interest.

Its not as if these banks actually hand over savings deposits to people. They invent the money. It never existed. Go bankrupt and don't pay it back - some numbers on a screen somewhere are arranged differently. Better that than worrying yourself to the edge of Beachy Head about a level of debt that should never have been offered to you by people who should know better.


WWW

Ah yes "friends". Not something that propelled you to your current position then? The ramifications from a bankruptcy can involve losing your home, and or diffculties in being able to finance one in the future. Loss of competitiveness when others can borrow money and you cannot.
Problems with families and relationships when money that might have been available to you, now isn't.

It is all very well to promote the idea of bankruptcy as a harmless and inconsequential solution, justified by your perception of the folly of others, but it is at best irresponsible and should come with a serious health warning.

I am with WWW on this one, if the debt is unsecured and is taking it's toll then bankrupcy will not ruin your life. If the debt is that unmanageable then the chances are you wont be able to get a mortgage or any other form of borrowing anyway. Once a bankruptcy is cleared, it is cleared and borrowing beyond that is unaffected - certainly in the cases I have heard of. If the debt is secured then bankrupcy could be a major problem for someone else. It is then your responsibility to dedicate your life to servicing the debt until it is cleared.

And this is my problem with the Ryanair TR for integrated cadets. A bunch of desperate buggers typically with £20K of uni debt, £/E100K of training debt and E45K of TR debt (taking into account terms of the debt).That's about E175K of debt! You may be a pilot but you'll have nothing to show for it and when you retire, you'll really see the consequences then. I am not having a go, I am just saying. And you'll need E60K to service the debt.

23 year old wannabes with nothing to their name other than a blue book from the CAA and a £80k training debt are going bankrupt every day. They'd be mad not to. The judges love it. Easiest ruling they made all day.

If Wannabes are unaware of how others seem able to fund a whole Frzn ATPL and THEN fund a type rating then all I'm doing is removing ignorance.

The average Wannabe is a man of straw.

More fool the banks who wrote him a loan of invented money.


WWW

Wee Weasley Welshman

Finally a post of yours that I 100% agree with. A friend of mine went bankrupt last year and he said it was the easiest 5 mintutes of his life. The judge was more interested in talking about aeroplanes than money :ok:

I get this a lot via PM.


Its rife.


Those who don't used planned bankruptcy are mugs.

Brutal.

True.



WWW

Maybe I should change my plan

1 - give the money saved towards my atpl to the well paid missus to use as a deposit for our first house (all in her name)
2- take out loads of credit cards in my name while i am still working in a decent job.
3- fund all cpl/ir on cards
4 - declare myself out the game, i have no assets, yet me and my-unmarried missus have a house brought in the price crash and i have my cpl/ir. Kinda of a 2 for 1, as once i had my CPL i was gonna have to start saving all over again for a house!

Would that plan work? I think I could live with the hassle of using top-up cards on my mobile if it meant I could would get a house as well as my CPL!

maybe i will do some research into this....!

Integrity?

23 year old wannabes with nothing to their name other than a blue book from the CAA and a £80k training debt are going bankrupt every day. They'd be mad not to. The judges love it. Easiest ruling they made all day.

If Wannabes are unaware of how others seem able to fund a whole Frzn ATPL and THEN fund a type rating then all I'm doing is removing ignorance.

The average Wannabe is a man of straw.

More fool the banks who wrote him a loan of invented money.


WWW

Integrity?

Do our elected politians have integrity when they submit huge expense bills to clear their moats? Or pay their children out of tax payers money for doing fictitious jobs? Or perhaps the married MPs that lived in the same house together and both claimed a second house allowance have integrity?

Ok so they are politicians, we cant expect them to have integrity.

How about the poor old banks? Surely they must have integrity when they dish out loans and mortgages to people that could never afford them? Or they must be good honest people when the tax payer bails them out, we wouldn't bail out crooks would we? What about when the govenment makes lots of crisp new money notes for them and they dont lend it to small buisnesses but yet still pay themselves bonuses? Or perhaps Fred the Shred has integrity when he takes his £16m pension for nearly sending a bank under?

What about the d list clebs that spend 6 months of their life auctioning off their vagina to a football team and then go crying to the press after they have been mistreated by some paparazi, probably the same pap that made the a d-list celeb in the first place. Do they have integrity?

Or what about the FTO's? They are honest aren't they for they are brother pilots are they not? Surely they must have un-told intregrity when they promise 18 yr old wannabe's that by paying them 70k they will walk striaght into the right hand seat.

Perhaps the only people that our leaders want to be honest are their subjects, for it makes them more money.

I work 7 days a week at the moment, have done for the last 18 months whilst studing for my atpls every night (next day off Dec 19th...) Perhaps its about time i stuck 2 fingers up to the twats mentioned above and undertake my cunning plan, for sure I have no role models in the public domain to teach me integrity.

Good post UAV.

90% of People live in 'The Matrix' or may as well.

Excellent post UAV!

:{ Everyone else I read about in the papers is a liar and a cheat so why shouldn't I be?

If you can't beat them, vote them out, don't join them!

WWW the only ignorance in your post is the claim you are 'informing' people. What you are actually doing is encouraging fraud and dishonesty, not exactly what you would expect of a professional pilot.

Brutal.
True.
;-)

How can telling the truth ever be fraudulent or dishonest?

Every day Wannabes are using the bankruptcy courts to wash away their £80k training loans.

Its happening.

Its easy.

There are very few snags.

Its therefore logical.

Some Wannabes don't know this information.

Those reading here now do.



Save your moralising because I couldn't give a 5h1t about morals and banks.


WWW

Integrity, even if you did run up massive debts as described and then went bankrupt you will still only cost the bank a tiny tiny tiny proportion of what they hand out in bonuses to their staff to gamble with our money, livelihoods and the economy.

Politicians, bankers, Company directors...all taking bonuses, expenses, fiddling, stealing!!!

Do it UAV, consider it your bonus from the banks!!!

Oh, I suddenly feel a bit of an anarchist.........! Take em down brothers, make em pay!

Like the above post I have no issues what so ever in getting on over on the banks, they have no right what so ever to claim the high ground on this one, after the last 2 years the mess they have put the world in.

Last night, in bed I was giving it some serious thought - it would allow me to get a house and my CPL. Buy one get one free.

But how would I go about giving my missus the 20k i have in the bank? In the courts it would look like a planned brankruptcy if i give her 20k, then the following week take out 30k on 10 credit cards and 6 months down the line i declare i'm out the game. I dont think it would take the detective prowess of columbo to figure out what i am doing, and surely then there would be ramifications.

Banks always talk about finacial vehicles - perhaps i buy my missus a nice new vehicle, in her name as a xmas pressie, then get the cards out, do my training, go pop, sell her car and then get the house....

Telling the truth is neither fraudulant or dishonest. Telling wannabes to apply for a loan they never intend to pay back is encouraging fraud and dishonesty.
No judge will allow you to delclare bankruptcy based on what you are encouraging.

It's very easy for you to sit there and encourage naive individuals to go through life lieing and cheating and stealing, because that is exactly what you are doing. The very reason the banks are in this mess is because of people like you, with morals like yours. Don't sit on your high horse, comfortable in a well paid job, having got over the hurdles of being a wannabe and then encourage others to lie and steal there way to a license.

WWW no judge ever delights in signing off on someone's bankrupcy and it's naive of you to say so. If you have nothing constructive to say other than others are getting away with it so why don't you try, keep it to yourself!

For those of you naive enough to listen to his clap trap, consider this, if you were sat in the interview chair and the chief pilot asked you about how you financed your license, what lies would you tell to cover up your planned bankruptcy? or would you be happy to explain how you lied your way to the loan?

Quote -'But how would I go about giving my missus the 20k i have in the bank? In the courts it would look like a planned brankruptcy if i give her 20k, then the following week take out 30k on 10 credit cards and 6 months down the line i declare i'm out the game. I dont think it would take the detective prowess of columbo to figure out what i am doing, and surely then there would be ramifications.' - Ramifications like a possible prison sentence, your wife facing criminal charges, loss of your house to pay back the debts etc.etc.

Think long and hard about doing what WWW is very casualy suggesting, perhaps he'd like to put in writing for you and guarantee his house against his advice going wrong?

Incredible that Danny is happy to have people like you as a moderator WWW, you should be ashamed of yourself!

The thing is if i go down this route, I have funded the license through hard work, I have spent the last 18 months working 7 days a week.

It is the house bit I consider the freebie in the buy one get one free part!

It is all becoming very tempting.

Remind me - who is paying to rescue the banks from years of reckless lending to people who couldn't repay their debts? :hmm:

Ah a total breakdown of social responsibility right from the top to the very bottom of society.... makes you proud to be British.... :yuk:

How did this crisis start again... ah yes it was those bankers... all their fault.... damn them.... in fact it is their fault I forgot the wife's birthday... and that speeding ticket I got... bankers to blame..... drunk driving charge?? Well if it wasn't for those bankers I wouldn't have been drinking....

:mad: pathetic .... grow an :mad: backbone and take some responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming others.....