|
Anyone know who watches out for PPRUNE regarding legal ramifications to the posts on here? Perhaps they should be made aware of the 'advice' from one of their own moderators?:eek:
|
Calm down dear, its just bankruptcy.
Whether or not I think its a good idea or not I see no reason not to talk about it amongst Wannabes. It is happening. It was predicted to happen. It does work. It is a Wannabe issue. Wannabes who are unaware risk being out-spent in the war of training expenditure. I paid for all my training bar a bit that the dear old RAF funded. I borrowed money. I paid it back. I've had several mortgages and paid them back. I'm law abiding, I give to charity, I'm slightly to the right of Norman Tebbit. But I have every sympathy for a Wannabe who now finds that it costs a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC + Boing/Bus Type Rating + temporary contract to get a foot on the ladder. I have every sympathy for the Wannabe who found the banks and the schools falling over themselves to arrange £80k+ to be loaned to them based on an assumption of employment that was recklessly optimisitic. For a bankruptcy court judge his easiest part of the day is extending protection to the 23yr old who owes £80k to HSBC and has nought to his name other than a crappy blue plastic license from the CAA. So much more clear cut and simple than the usual court appearance where some dozy bint ran up £40k on her 5 credit cards and fell behind with the Northern Rock mortgage and the payments on her Mini/iPhone/Store Card. Thanks for the concerns about legal issues but there are none. Wannabes are going bankrupt at an ever increasing pace. Some have planned to from the beginning. It is illegal but it is quite logical, practical and it gains them massive advantage. Telling people that is something I think is right. Clearly you don't. WWW |
I think personal bankruptcy is admirable and logical. It means nothing these days and the consequences are slight compared to the slog of repaying the debt plus interest. Those who don't used planned bankruptcy are mugs. Its easy. There are very few snags. Its therefore logical. and it gains them massive advantage. It is illegal but it is quite logical. Calm down dear, its just bankruptcy. |
Its easily boggled then.
WWW |
Is there any way we can get a poll on here asking how many pilots have declared themselves bankrupt? Would be interesting to see.
You have to treat all these loopholes as all part of the game. Everyone is in on it from the heads of banks, large companies (look at the rover bosses..), to the weasels that run this broken bankrupt rock in the middle of the atlantic. Everyone is on the take. Its just all part of the game. |
I have two views on this.
If someone, of any age, has been stupid enough to secure their flight training debt against their families homes then the risk is all theirs. Bankruptcy is not and should not be an option. It can not be. These chancers will get what they deserve ultimately. I know that I certainly wouldn't have put my parents home up as security for flight training so that is my justification. If someone is offered unsecured debt to carry out flight training, the risk is all the banks, they have employed highly paid risk analysts and number crunchers to weigh up the risk. If you want to be a pilot, you'd be a fool not to take it given the chance. If you can't pay it off or it is strangling your life then the sensible thing to do is relieve yourself of it. That risk has been bulit in to the loan. Taking into account the fact that WWW very correctly pointed out that the money never actually existed, just makes the whole process feel that little bit better, fair and even. In the second, unsecured case it is perhaps exploitation of someones 'weakness' but then again so is what the likes of Ryanair do and people seem more than happy with that don't they? Everyone needs to do what they need to do and 18-25 year olds that have tapped their parents up with a huge relatively short term debt are going to need to grow up and wise up pretty quickly. |
so if I have my life savings on deposit with the bank and it goes under because of people failing to pay back the obligations they have signed up for on the other side of the balance sheet.... but it doesn't matter because the money I earnt busting my balls didn't exist anyway.... oh well that alright then.... better tell the folks who had their money with ice-save it didn't exisit anyway.... I am sure they won't give a s**t....
:mad: saving money.... borrow as much moooolar as you can then just tell the bank to f'off..... I'm alright jack.... sooo remind me how we got into this mess.... hmmm.... (p.s. I am fully aware of how a fractional reserve banking system works.... I just think you guys sometimes have a very very very twisted view of the world of banking and what is the correct direction for a moral compass to point). |
But the banks for the last 15 years have been lending out more money than they have had on deposits from your hard work anyway?!
Look at northen rock, they were giving out loans 125% value of an over inflated property - a am sure a school child can see that is a bad idea. Like the beak said, if you can get an unsecured loan, and you have no assets that can be seized (will the bank want my r reg mondeo with 135k on the clock..?) it is the banks problem to worry about. Any flying lawyers out there to help me on my budding idea? |
My moral compass would lead me to gassing bankers. To quote a man whom I admire most greatly:
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. Thomas Jefferson, 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826) Obviously planned bankruptcy is illegal and can result in your being prosecuted and imprisoned. So its not something to be treated lightly. However. It is a strategy,i t does work, and Wannabes need to know that they are in a race where other competitors ARE planning to use this strategy. Almost all Wannabe will be heavily in debt, asset poor and unemployed at the end of their training. Personal bankruptcy is therefore uniquely painless for them. With training debts removed it becomes far easier to fund a type rating and accept casual employment or contracting work wherever it might be. Wannabes are up against those armed with plans for bankruptcy. Its a fact. WWW |
It is not just the banks problem but it is the banks calculated risk. UAV, I hear what you are saying and it all sounds good, but, sure as anything there will be latent consequences to bankruptcy that you could never have predicted, certainly going about it the way you are considering. It would appear openly reckless. And you know and I know that it isn't necessary to hurry through it right now. Spread it a bit, make some attempts to repay it, see how you go, and then, if it all becomes too much, bankruptcy is there for you. Transfer 20K to your wife, sign the house over to her and spunk 30K on credit cards all within 2-6 months and you might receive a spell in the slammer!
Anybody would be silly setting out bankruptcy intended. It is like preparing to fail. BUT, it is a tool that is there, for those with unsecured debts and a huge amount of strain which NEEDS to be relieved. It has been calculated as an acceptable risk by the banks. You know, not everyone can win at everything all of the time - and that includes the banks. They would have self perpetuating money otherwise. It is a gamble for the banks that wont always pay off. The fact of the matter is, you should not allow an unsecured debt to monopolise your life - that's not what life is about. You also should not let it monopolise someone elses though if you have secured the debt - then bankruptcy is not an option. As for the type of bankruptcy that prat Grant Bovey and Anthea Turner have toyed with several times, that is disgraceful, appauling and deplorable. A hard working trainee pilot who has taken up the banks offer at a chance on their life to achieve their dream, with no security, is not in the same league. It's not in the same multiverse. |
I honestly dont actually think it is something I will do and have only being playing devil's advocate on this thread for the last 2 days. I would certainly never risk going to jail, for with my looks and cute rear I would get a lot of un-wanted attention, certainly that kind of attention may cause lasting damage that would inhibit the ability to be able to sit down in a first officers seat for an 8 hour flight :}
I do however stand by my comments on integrity and about banks lending money they dont have. people that have seen my previous posts on other threads will have seen that I am all for hard work and earning your right to something. However if I was funding training through loans (which I am not) I certainly wouldnt be worrying myself all the way to beachy head as WWW puts it, and would look at envoking the enterprise act. I believe after all one of the aims of it was to help people setting up buisnesses have some protection when it fails, and enbarking on pilot training could be looked upon as a buisness of your future earnings. I would still love to know how many pilots have done it, sadly with the unjustified stigma that is still attached to bankruptcy i dont think people 'fess up on here. |
There was plenty of money made today on the markets, as my trading account testifies!
Bankruptcy will only serve to blacklist the profession, and no-one will lend to anyone who wants to train. From my perspective, this is an excellent outcome, and perhaps I will become a sought after skilled employee with a decent salary good conditions and a pay-rise. |
Quite so. A lack of credit for flight training would be a godsend for all but the airline beancounters.
WWW |
Oh and not forgetting the Flying instructors, and their families and the others whose business is tied to flight training, and the businesses that are afilliated to flight training and their employees and their families.
I wonder if some people sing the national anthem whilst substituting every word with "ME?" Maybe not such a Godsend after all? |
They are all parasites who exist to separate Wannabes from their money.
I have been deep deep deep into the flying training business at all levels. I know that all they care about is the next sucker with a cheque book. Sure, they like it when students get jobs. But they don't care when they don't and they sure as hell don't put anyone off spending their money. I don't think they are evil. But they deserve no special compassion. For every school trying to do their best there are two others who are utter sharks. WWW |
Most businesses exist to seperate "wannabes" from their money. Your employer exists to seperate passengers from theirs. Your stockbroker, swimming pool supplier and estate agent all exist to separate you from yours.
They don't much care how you raise the money either, only that you can pay for what they are selling. There are plenty of businesses that take customers money and disappear under the blanket of bankruptcy as well. Do you advocate this practice as well? I am guessing not if it is your swimming pool that is at stake! |
Most businesses exist to seperate "wannabes" from their money. Your employer exists to seperate passengers from theirs. Your stockbroker, swimming pool supplier and estate agent all exist to separate you from yours. They don't much care how you raise the money either, only that you can pay for what they are selling. No - my employer, stockbroker (if I had such a thing) and swimming pool supplier deliver a service that I am happy to pay for. They don't peddle a dream that is unattainable under the current industry climate. And FTO's do peddle lies. Lies of omission. And just plain lies. I've been there and seen them do it. Recently. You just hate it when someone tells the truth. Therefore you are Satan. WWW |
bealzebub - if all funding for flying training were to dry up, I dont think it would spell then end for all FIs and flying schools.
The airlines would still need aircrew, its just they would have to start paying for their training again. The supply and demand curve. HN1708 - all the best with the bankruptcy, I am sure it will be the wisest choice you will make. If nothing else wannabe's should/could use bankruptcy as a 'training failure protection'. If you fail training and your not cut out for flying but have spent thousands, just press the ctrl alt del keys and reboot, you have lost nothing! Over the last 2-3 years my black and white financial view on morality and honesty have to be honest been turned upside down. Especially with the expenses/bonus/bail outs that have happened. |
Thanks UAV689.
My brother is a senior manager in one of the bailed out banks (one with the biggest corporate loss in UK history) and was furious that i was compromising basic living needs to repay his own employers! I literally sold everything i owned that was worth anything on eBay to repay the banks and i only wish i'd seen sense sooner. Its nice going to sleep at night now not having to worry about to make the next repayment or how i will put petrol in my old car. Amazingly i am now an expert on how far you can go on a fuel light in a car, and trust me its far! The restrictions and bad credit for becoming bankrupt are well worth not having to repay money i can't afford. |
That is interesting.
When discussions in the past have focussed on planned bankruptcy there has always been a fairly large amount of comment upon the morals of the issue. I have a hunch that post-crisis the moral dimension will wane. The bail outs and the excesses make a moral argument about banks 'difficult'. This then raises wider concerns about society. Are the people captured by the Matrix peeking outside their cocoons? Who knows. When you are free of debt you suddenly get to see what debt really is and how easily banks live. That's a quote from me, today. WWW |
Maybe I am, but you only tell your version of the truth. Here are some of the consequences:
■It will cost you money (up to £485) to go bankrupt ■ Whilst you are bankrupt, you can't apply for more credit ■ If you own your own home, it might have to be sold (but you may be able to apply to your local authority for re-housing) ■Some of your possessions might have to be sold, for example, you will usually lose your car and any luxury items you own ■Some professions don't let people who have been made bankrupt carry on working ■If you own a business, it is more than likely that the Official Receiver will close down your business, dismiss your employees and sell off the assets. ■ Going bankrupt can affect your immigration status ■ You cannot keep your bankruptcy private. A list of bankrupt people is published on the internet and your case could also be published in your local newspaper ■ Even when you are no longer bankrupt, you could have another order, called a bankruptcy restriction order made against you. These orders can be made, for example, where you did not co-operate with the Official Receiver, or you took on debts knowing that you had no hope of paying them back. They can last for 15 years, and will make your financial affairs very restricted. ■Even when you are no longer bankrupt, there are some debts such as court fines and student loans that will never be written off. ■There is a public stigma with bankruptcy. All people subject to bankruptcy in the UK have their name advertsied in two local newspaper and the London Gazette. ■Bankruptcy can effect your ability to run a business because you cannot trade under any other name. ■You can be publically examined in court. ■Your credit rating will be damaged for a long time, up to 6 years. ■Debts to the Student Loans Company will not be written off ■The trustee in bankruptcy may make you sell your expensive assets. ■Your professional status can be lost. ■Your job may be lost or your chances of promotion. ■You can not be a director of a limited company. |
I dont think I needed to be debt free to see that - but for the average joe public it can be scary how little they understand about loans/debt/interest etc.
For example my dear old dad is buying a brand new gas guzzling anti-vegetarian 4x4 this week. He was suckered into taking out finance from the dealer (backed by a bank) for said the said tank. I went mad, told him to cancel their agreement and get a loan himself via a bank. When he said why I showed him that he would be repaying 8k more than he is paying for the car (in fact they were giving him an 8k discount, only to re-coup that on the loan arrangement!!) I like the matrix analogy, in fact i love it. At the risk of thread creep it amazes me how many people I see at work that have their head so deep in the sand, grains of it are coming out the end. Some of these people are quite high up and it frightening that they are running the show. |
Well I've rarely seen a sorrier sack of shoes than that little list.
■It will cost you money (up to £485) to go bankrupt Goodbye £80k of loan at 8% = total repayment around £150k. ■ Whilst you are bankrupt, you can't apply for more credit No sh1t. ■ If you own your own home, it might have to be sold (but you may be able to apply to your local authority for re-housing) Nope, don't have one. ■Some of your possessions might have to be sold, for example, you will usually lose your car and any luxury items you own Well you can keep your car as long as its worth less than £1,500. Plus they can't take your fridge blah blah - you're 23 and don't own anything because you live with your parents. You own nothing they can sell. ■Some professions don't let people who have been made bankrupt carry on working Not flying they don't. I think its Accountancy and Non-Exec Directorships and possibly being a judge or MP that's a problem. Anyone care? Thought not. ■If you own a business, it is more than likely that the Official Receiver will close down your business, dismiss your employees and sell off the assets. I don't own a business. Like nearly all Wananbes. ■ Going bankrupt can affect your immigration status I'm Welsh, not illegal. ■ You cannot keep your bankruptcy private. A list of bankrupt people is published on the internet and your case could also be published in your local newspaper Oh no. The shame of it. Pass me the revolver and the bottle of whisky! ■ Even when you are no longer bankrupt, you could have another order, called a bankruptcy restriction order made against you. These orders can be made, for example, where you did not co-operate with the Official Receiver, or you took on debts knowing that you had no hope of paying them back. They can last for 15 years, and will make your financial affairs very restricted. As these happen ini less than 0.2% of cases I'll take my chances. Its always used against serial fraudsters... ■Even when you are no longer bankrupt, there are some debts such as court fines and student loans that will never be written off. Oh no! My £5k student loan on minimal interest rate still exists - whatever am I to do!? ■There is a public stigma with bankruptcy. All people subject to bankruptcy in the UK have their name advertsied in two local newspaper and the London Gazette. I'll just have to kill myself then. ■Bankruptcy can effect your ability to run a business because you cannot trade under any other name. Woe is me. ■You can be publically examined in court. Apart from my massive penis causing gasps of amazement I have nothing to fear being examined in court. ■Your credit rating will be damaged for a long time, up to 6 years. Christ - not my credit rating! I have no money. Am not earning any. Won't for a long time. ■Debts to the Student Loans Company will not be written off Crikey - now I'm trembling. ■The trustee in bankruptcy may make you sell your expensive assets. What? My iPhone? ■Your professional status can be lost. Ummm - how? You're either a professional or you're not. ■Your job may be lost or your chances of promotion. Yeah - I remember so well being asked an illegal question about my finances at interview. ■You can not be a director of a limited company. Well that's my dreams on directing a limited company up in smoke then.... This is risible. WWW |
Fortunately i have given up on becoming an MP or a member of a school board and you can actually run a business although can't be an MD for the period you are actually bankrupt (12 months). If you are bankrupt you are very unlikely to be able to obtain any credit never mind be allowed to!
When i phoned and wrote to the banks to tell them i was unable to make any further repayments they informed me that it would affect my ability to obtain further credit. I replied that as i was unable to afford or obtain any further credit then i had nothing to lose! They of course went on to warn me that i could lose my home (don't have one of those) or anything worth a lot of money (already eBayed into bank repayments) so there was no deterrent to stop paying them and certainly no incentive to keep doing so! My response to being examined in court (already run this past a QC) is to pull out a brochure for a FTO with pictures of handsome men wearing gold bars and say it was implied i would be a flying a jet around making big bucks and it hasn't happened for me despite getting first time passes in minimum hours in all of my training! Amazing that the government spend lots of time and money telling us not to drive too fast or smoke and drink and very little about borrowing money we can't afford to repay! |
"Once a bankruptcy is cleared, it is cleared and borrowing beyond that is unaffected"
TOTAL RUBBISH.....For those of you stupid enough to take the Wee mans advice beware, just google it (Bankruptcy) and take no notice WHATSOEVER of your well informed Moderator, otherwise it will end in tears for you! Nothing wrong with being honest and hard working.....Ultimately, it pays and you'll sleep at night. WWW, you should be ashamed of yourself with your flipent remarks with reference to Bankruptcy. no doubt you will delete my post as you normally do! Not one for constructive criticism are we?? regards Piky. |
It is risible to you WWW because you haven't done it. You promote an idea that is irresponsible albeit unavoidable for some people. You tell the world how clever and fortunate you are and how your advice is unfaltering in its accuracy. I appreciate it is something of an act, but that doesn't make it any more accurate or valid.
Some of these things will have a serious effect on people, because they are not all as shallow and dismissive as you either are, or pretend to be. It is all very well to play "Alan Greenspan" supported by nothing more than your moderator status, and tell the world how you weep at the graveside of friends who have been hounded by banks. It is all very well to promote a sense of revenge on irresponsible banks or ill advised borrowers. But you fail to take a step back from your own point of view, to see the real world consequences of what you promote. It is risible to you, because you won't admit it is serious. To be honest I think few people are fooled by your advocacy or self promotion, but even if they are, I am not. |
Bealzebub http://www.pprune.org/1380833-post31.html
5 years ago you were taking time out of your busy life to criticise me and I'm truly grateful that you continue to take your role so seriously. I'm so glad that you're not fooled by my advocacy and self promotion. Kindest Regards WWW |
The banks lent recklessly and people borrowed irresponsibly now if someone wants to throw a brick through my window then me and Fred Goodwin are even!
|
Oh and Piky might be wondering why none of his posts appear here. Its because you've been forum banned love.
PM me with an apology and you'll be allowed to post openly again. You've written loads and most of it is good but nobody has seen it for months. Other than you. When you log in. Its all there. But only to you. Cruel I know. But hence nobody replies to any of your comments.... WWW |
Well I suppose you can if you want, but I haven't violated any of the site rules, so people might wonder why?
I am happy for you to highlight that post from 5 years ago, because it is probably just as valid today as it was then. I am not sure what it has to do with bankruptcy though? If you are going to ban people for disagreeing with you, doesn't it make a mockery of the forum and the subjects contained within it? |
OK - fair point.
WWW |
Hello....It is dark in here.....Oh wait the lights have come back on.
OK - fair point Your connection with the flight training industry is what exactly? Oh same as yours (only more so) ex-CFI, examiner, CAA approval holder for flying school. 29 year airline experience. Now have children involved in flight training and all the associated problems that brings them and me as a parent. Does that meet the qualification? Is there a qualification? |
Yes that meets the qualification.
You're heavily involved in the supply side of flying training to Wannabes. I thought so. Your comments and attitude are thus weighted appropriately. Took a while to smoke you out... WWW |
Thank you. 5 years it would seem?
|
Just for the record - kids live off Wannabe spending plus a bit of a history owning a flying school. Doesn't like me and what I write. Thinks I should be quiet.
Bless... Hello....It is dark in here.....Oh wait the lights have come back on. Quote: OK - fair point Your connection with the flight training industry is what exactly? Oh same as yours (only more so) ex-CFI, examiner, CAA approval holder for flying school. 29 year airline experience. Now have children involved in flight training and all the associated problems that brings them and me as a parent. Does that meet the qualification? Is there a qualification? |
I may be misunderstanding, but that is not the record at all.
My kids don't live off wannabe spending. They are wannabes spending! They spend their own money and my money. My kids are what I supply to the wannabe industry, as customers! I haven't been directly involved with that side of the industry for the last 29 years. The only reason I don't like what you write in this respect, is because you have no experience of it, and as a parent I feel your advice is irresponsible. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but from a moderator it is a bit of a concern frankly. I feel it is fair to therefore counter your assertions and opinions, free from the threat of being kicked out of the discussion simply for disagreeing with them, and failing to be put down by dismissive nonsense. There you go again with your prejudicial presumptions, hopefully that corrects the record. |
I have a lovely letter here from a large fto basically trying to milk a bit more cash from the wannabe’s with a mixture out right cheek and lies. I’ll happily post it up... |
Bealzebub, why are you scaremongering against people seeking the protection of bankruptcy and can you please provide a source for that list of 'consequences' for bankrupts in order to qualify it?
If you want to stop people getting into this position then why not tell them what a **** industry this is for a lot of hopefuls and how FTOs will lie through their teeth to get you to take on hefty debt! The flight training industry takes advantage of people, the banks take advantage of people so why shouldn't people take advantage of them??? |
Well said HN!
:D |
On topic: Does anyone know if bankruptcy can effect somebody's ability to obtain an airside pass? Could be a very big consideration for a newly-qualified pilot who is close to bankruptcy.
(NB. Not asking this for me, I'm not planning to go bankrupt! :}) |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 00:06. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.