Worth Doing an Instructor Rating during Credit Crunch???
 

I finished my training a few months ago and have a frozen ATPL. Tried most airlines in this world but haven't recieved much positive feedback.

Obviously, jobs with airlines are really hard to find hence the £6000 question, would anyone advise doing an Instructor rating while waiting for the economy to improve and then getting into airilines???

Jobs in Instructing are also on the decline as to my research so far but it will build hours, experience and contribute to the ever increasing cost of living.

Instructor pay scales would also help in making a decision.

All ideas appreciated.


MHN

Moderators

I'm fairly new to this so if you think I've put this thread in the wrong section, by all means, move it

cheers

MHN

My 2 local clubs are very quiet just now with bookings. They are both fairly big clubs, 1 with normally a high turnover of instructors. In that particular club however, no instructor's have left for the airlines for months now. The club wont be recruiting any FI's til further notice.

The FI ticket is a sound move but in the current climate you will struggle to get a job. If paid by the flying hour, you will be struggling to make ends meet.

MHN.....

Good question mate. I was doing some soul searching whilst walking the dog this afternoon and asked myself the same question. I can't decide either and I will be done with my training fairly soon. As MikeCR says, instructor jobs are on the decline. Ive got a couple of mates instructing and they are struggling to make ends meet at the mo.

I'm seriously considering becoming an instructor for 5 years or so and moving onto CPL/IR instruction. There's reasonably good money in that and there's usually a demand somewhere for them.

The most attractive thing for me is the chance to become a better pilot. The hours are a big plus and should help with the great job hunt when the time comes but some fine tuning of hand flying skill's and having some fun is what really interestes me. I'm not going to lie and say I want to be buzzing around in light twins for the rest of my career but I do like the idea of it for a few years. Spent all this money on training, may aswell enjoy the outcome!

Not sure if this helps your predicament mate but just know you're not alone!

FS :ok:

Some pros and cons to help decide:

Pros:
-another license or rating looks good on your cv and makes you more employable.
-the FI shows that you hit the books hard and worked hard to learn all aspects of flying, ie: dedication
-you can build time and have others pay the bill.
-you will learn plenty and it will make you a better pilot.


cons:
-the added expense as you mentioned.
-the low instructor wages to start with.
-not too many instructor jobs out there right now.

I instructed for years after not finding work post 9/11. I have no regrets however and gained valuable experience along the way.
I still instruct part-time to keep my FI current.

Good luck in whatever you chose.

very hard to get a job as a fi, and most school will ask you for 500h as a flight instructor (insurance requirement). and when economy will bounce back, you still need a type rating.

if i was you, i would save money for a rating in the future and see how things improve (if things improve). for now , do nothing until the governement help us.
except a crisis for 5 years.:{

Absolute nonsense. PPL level instructors all start from ab-initio - the 500 hour requirement is only to be approved for CPL instruction. Aircraft insurance policies almost all state "Any FI", with no hours requirement. That includes up to light twin level (our twins are insured for any pilot with more than 250h TT, ie not people with CPL/IR in minimum hours).

The FI rating and job is immensely satisfying - it hones your own skills to a level where you can demonstrate and teach in most conditions, and to almost all abilities of student. The first few years pay incredibly badly, especially bearing in mind the investment you've made, but for those who enjoy it then it's well worth it. I'm lucky enough to enjoy it!

Dont bother wasting your money its a crap situation to be in especially at the moment ,
Go back to whatever you worked at before and keep mailing the airlines or wait till the next up turn ,not only is there no FI jobs ,
But theres no students anymore to teach .
No hours ,No money :ugh:

Do yourself a favour and take good advice

At the school were i do part time FI work there are still jobs and students to the extent i can drop them an email 2 or 3 days before i want to go in and have a nearly full program.

good luck if you decide to do it, it will make you a better pilot

Just taking a guess at the future but I'd say that when the market does start to pick up then they'll be a sudden influx of people learning to fly who were putting it off before due to the market. Doesn't really help you for now but it all depends on your personal circumstances; doubt any low hour fATPL will be getting much other than FI for next couple of years so it depends on if you have a good day job to fall back on. If so maybe do the instructor course when theres signs of the market recovering.

guys

appreciate all your thought so far.. keep them coming.

I suppose in a sense i'm lucky enough to have job doing security at the moment. pays not great but long hours make up for it (this is the job that has actually paid for all of my training). starting off with a restricted FI Rating, i may have to instruct part time to make ends meet until i get onto the better pay rates teaching CPL etc.

I'll be speaking to my Flight school some time next week to find out the job prospects straight after the course.

Does anybody know roughly what the take home pay is in flight schools in the UK and abroad.

some scools pay a retainer for full time staff and hourly flight pay. Part timers only get flight pay. ny ideas what different scools pay per hour for restricted, unrestricted, PPl CPL ME and IR instructors?

Regards
MHN

The Glide - "But theres no students anymore to teach".....not sure which school's you've been into lately mate but the one's I've been into are still reasonably busy. Whether or not this is sustainable is another question but for the time being there still seems to be a steady influx of newbies.

Since I started training in early 2008 I've been suprised how many people don't have big loans but have got the money from either savings or have come from well off families.

There will undoubtedly be a drop in demand for training but many of those with the money already in hand are bound to take advantage of the more competitive training rates currently on offer.

FS :ok:

This is a forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion and to add my pennies worth, i think the F.I route is a good move. I have been toying with the idea for months and have decided to go for it, i have spent too much money getting to where i am to give up. I finished my training at the end of 2007 and aside from a couple of interviews that didn't happen for me (gutted) at the start of 2008, i have had nothing since. I am a tiny fish in a huge pond and no amount of determination is going to change that, except becoming a F.I and increasing my hours!
I trained at Oxford and they are churning them out like sausages, more low houred guys after more low houred guys coming onto this saturated market every month while the jobs are getting fewer and fewer. I'm being realistic to myself, i know that this is a very difficult industry and i knew that before i embarked on this road but i feel right now, while i'm competing with guys with a TR and a few thousand hours under their belt, i have absolutely no chance and i'm not going to kid myself that i do so right now becoming an F.I makes perfect sense. However with the economic climate the way it is and set to get worse, i understand that i'm going to be competing with this guys now for F.I positions as well!! Forever the optimist though:ok:

Instructor route is still a valid way to gain experience, build up hours, improve your flying skills, and meet useful contacts. All of which elevate your position in the pecking order to get that first airline job. The 1000hr + instructor is of interest to the turboprop company, who are on the lookout for quick command progression.

There are to many 230hr cpl/ir holders out there, all wondering why airlines are not beating a path to their door. Living in dreamland.

There are instructor jobs out there, the money is not great, you might have to do it part time to start with, the first few months can be odd, finding your feet and developing your instructional skills. If you have some personality, and motivation you can generate alot of your own work, build a portfolio of students, and actually be commercially useful to a school.

The instructor job is very much what you choose to make of it.

Yeah totally agree. I'm seriously thinking of going FI as soon as I finish.

To me the big advantages are: - Keeping current, building hours constructively, seriously honing the flying skill's, getting myself near the top of the pile when things pick up for a TP job, earning some (although little) money, having another string to the bow, make some new contacts, have some fun flying (Might be slightly morbid but stalls and PFL's are great fun to me!) :O

The downsides as I see them: - Naff money, more training expense, competitive job market (albeit nothing like the low hour FO job market!!! :ugh:)

The economic downturn has made me think about things a bit more.... Airline flying is what I aspire to but I'm determined to have some fun first with instructing/air taxi/bush flying/crop spraying....you get the idea. (Although thats not to say I'd turn down an airline job if one materialised....maybe the easter bunny will bring one this year!)

Guys,

Before you launch head first into an FI course...make sure the job prospects are there at the end of it. Today, I happened to see a fairly big FTO's bookings for next week - there's not 1 single booking in it! The current FI's at the club are having to look elsewhere for work(not necessarily flying related).

Best advice...phone around some of the clubs and get a feel for whats happening.

The FI rating is/has always been a great rating. Just make sure you get your moneys worth out of it!

Perhaps look at some of the parachute and gliding clubs around as an alternative for this summer - a good saeson could easily get a few hundred hours under the belt, without the 7 or 8k expense of an FI course.

Instructor salary
 

Hello folks - I'm justing coming to the end of an FI course... Any ideas what the average hourly rate is for a new full time instructor in the south?

No wonder you stopped!

Guess I'll be walking to the airport then.

Not sure about the above quote. It's unlikely any of the little people are going to get bailed out.

I finished flight training early last year and had a tough time looking for employment. If I were in your shoes (and this time last year I was... albeit a slightly better situation than present) - I would definitely look into the FI route.

chongololo has listed the pros and cons. Spot on IMO.

Go down the FI route, if for no other reason than to just prevent yourself getting rusty. Because your skills will corrode rapidly. Keep current, keep flying.

I'm sure you won't get paid much. And I'm sure it'll cost a few quid to get the rating as well. I expect you'll probably need another job just to make ends meet - but you'll need to be fresh and current when recruitment starts again and this is probably the best way of doing just that.

All the best.

Guys

Once again thanks for all your thoughts.

Spoke to my Flight School regarding the FI Rating today. They are fully booked until April so I'll have to wait until then to start. Loads of people are showing interest in the course and most, if not all, are in the same position as me.

As standard policy in my school, they prefer to employ instructors that they have taught (to keep a sense of standardisation he says), this is slight good news for me, because i'll have a good chance of actually getting a job with them whether its part time or full time. Also spoke to a friend in the middle east and seems the job prospects for FI's is good up there. Car, Apartment and $3000 per month.

I suppose I'm almost convinced this is the ''wisest'' move in these troubled times and i'm going to book myself in for the course, I've got a couple of months before i start unless something else comes along in the meantime.

Regards
MHN

You would be mad to do a FIC now. Window licking mad.

No jobs. No prospect of jobs. No decent pay even if there were.



Forget it.


Total waste of time.


WWW

Flying Squid just got your response ,You say you dont know what school ive been to lately and that most flight schools are reasonably busy . then you say your friends are struggling to make ends meat .

Am I missing something .

Take some advice from WWW he was right about the recession and people didn't listen .

If I was supposed to be one of your students, what would I think?
(Is this person really going to teach me or is he just using my time and money to keep him/her current)

No Offence

n.dave

n.dave - I've taught HUNDREDS of people how to fly aeroplanes. Some of them wanted and did become commercial pilots.


My advice to you now is to stop at Private and enjoy that aspect.

Experienced Airbus/Boeing Captains will be flipping burgers by Christmas.


WWW

Pessimists (they would call themselves realists) - Tunnelvision

Optmists - Tunnelvision


The ones in between have it about right :ok:

WWW, that's why any responsible pilot plans his or her career and has the contacts to fall back onto a different flying job should the one directly affected by our 'little money problem' goes balls up.

The ones who only have eyes only for 20+ tonnes of jet perhaps deserve what comes their way... there's aviators and there's aviators.

Ad

Bull****. There are no jobs. There won't be for years.


Its not complicated.

WWW

Andy, I appreciate everything you say on here - yes, people are blinded, and ambitions cloud the judgment of the otherwise rational person.

However, I am also aware that your experience has remained purely within the boundaries of so called 'professional' aviation. In your world of aviation the skies are darkening and hope diminishes as the sea of unemployed pilots grows by the day, ever fuelled through a continuous influx of inexperienced pilots. Indeed, times are going to get very tough.

But out there exists another world of flying - it takes an expeditious pilot to discover it and a harder one to enter it. And it can't be found on this little island, Europe, the States, or Jerez for that matter.

We both know to where I refer - I talk from experience and have been out there a few times in the past - in many parts of the world, flying is a luxury. Out there it's a necessity.

Open your eyes, you'd be amazed what there is out there.

Ad

Once again appreciate all your thoughts


WWW
I have to disagree with '' there are no jobs out there for Instructors''.

A friend of mine has just finished her FI rating and got a job instructing so there are jobs out there. The busy season is not so far away hence flight schools are going to be busier and will probably require more instructors.

I agree the pay is crap that's why I'd rather work part time to start with. Its not ideal but sometimes you have suffer little evil, for the greater good.

Not doing anything during these times will not do people like me any favours. It could take ages, as you say yourself, for things to get better and when it does we'll all still be in the same boat as we are now.

Imagine this for a second - If in five years time you are a recruitment manager for a major airline and are looking to recruit FO's, how would i appeal to you if i spent all this time working in my current security job (just to pay bills) and still have the same 250 hours TT or would I be more appealing as a Flight Instructor with 2000 hours (who has at least made a bit of an effort)

Reluctant737 - where is this place where flying is a necessity? am i missing something

I've got about a month to make a decision whether to start the FI course so all thought's are appreciated. At the moment i'm leaning more towards ''FI Rating is the wisest move to make''

regards
MHN

Perhaps not strictly true since it would take a brave man to confidently say that there will not be one single FI job in the whole of the UK for the next few years. I used to do the odd bit of instructing that I could fit in around my airline flying and you may be surprised to hear that I was recently asked if I could take on a couple of new students to start as soon as possible. This may be an isolated case but I hope that it highlights that the PPL training industry will still tick over during these turbulent times. There will be a select group of people who have the time and the surplus cash which will enable them to learn to fly.

You will have to look away from the populated areas and consider the more remote parts of the UK where the number of FIs looking for work will be less. I am not saying that there will be jobs at the far flung Schools and Clubs in the UK but this is where your best chance will be. Do your research and network and do not expect miracles. FI jobs will be as scarce as airline jobs and the same amount of perseverance will be required to hunt down any elusive vacancies that may exist.

However it might not be as easy as that since many would have to move if they were to exploit such an opportunity and to do so at the moment might be viewed as a gamble. Also, unless you have got a full time position then moving for a FI job will probably not be worth it.

My golden nugget of advice for a FI course has always been the following:

Do not embark on a FI course unless you have a instructional position guaranteed at the end of it.

That applies even more so at the moment...

Good luck to all :ok:

Mile High Nutcase -

There are certain regions of Africa (a little place called Maun is very popular with prospective pilots) where aeroplanes are as common as cars here - I have it on reliable authority that the job market there is in fact busier now than it was one year ago, and tends not to move with the standard economical phugoid. There are many parts of the continent, stricken and isolated from the world, with no 'beaten track' accessibility so to speak. Flying is therefore a necessity, and I know of no less than three mission work (there are many more) companies operating in that region, always looking for pilots due the high turnover rate - experience helps, but there are many courses available specific to the kind of flying you would encounter there. It's mainly medical - the company I flew with in the past involved me flying to various local strips accompanied by a UK nurse, treating those with disease and having suffered various accidents. Unfortunately three weeks from finishing my time there, I suffered a fuel leak over dense jungle and the aeroplane was written off - my companion suffered a broken back, myself a dislocated shoulder and two broken fingers. We then spent 4 hours there before somebody picked us up. So there is an element of danger in this work, and the pressure on you as a pilot is immense. Which is perhaps why so many people steer clear of this path - although judging by the level of selfishness in so many pilots I see on here, perhaps that's a good thing.

Mister Geezer -

You are correct regarding those with the means to train towards a PPL - somebody who makes the plain statement 'people don't have money so they can't afford to fly, go figure' is being incredibly ignorant. The reason is, there are an infinite number of biases not accounted for - everybody's situation is different, and yes, as a statistic, there are less people who learn to fly during a recession, that's a fact. But it's not doomsday - some people are not affected by the economy, some people even gain from it. Here's an example - probably 15-20% of people I met whilst learning to fly were retired. Those people will continue to learn because they have allocated a certain amount of savings into achieving their licence, no matter what. They also tend to take a little longer in learning, and over a longer period, which is good for the school. Another 10-20% were of the 'money no longer matters to me because I am immensely rich and no longer part of the output economy' type, therefore unaffected.

The bottom line, in my opinion - people will ALWAYS want to learn to fly, yes, noticeably less during an economical recession, but we certainly won't be seeing any of the 'doomsday' effects some people tend to me mentioning. The problem with armchair economists is they are just that - too much time to allocate to 'thinking' about every little variable in the world's financial position, and in doing so create their own thought streams which vary massively from what's happening in the real world. If you hit a golfball 1 degree in the wrong direction, after 800 yards the error is considerable.

Get your FI - but only if you are expeditious enough and have the means and 'tie-breaking' allowances to move to the edge of the world in pursuit of work. As I've always said, the problem is not that there is a lack of jobs. It's finding them.

Just my opinion, but still food for thought.

Ad

More people are doing the FIC because there aren't the airline jobs available.

At the same time the economy is slowing faster than in the last recession.


Whilst there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that some school remain busy these have to be balanced by the schools that don't shout about the fact they are not opening on Wednesdays or have dropped the instructor pay rate. Flying schools are amongst the ultimate discretionary spend. In the last recession many went bust. They are not very profitable even in the good times..

Once the mass airline redundancies kick in you'll have a flood of ex-instructors returning to the market inbetween van driving.


WWW

Factor in also that with the credit crunch, not too many banks are going to be giving out large loans especially for flight training, thus the pool of students is going to dry up.

It won't dry up - it won't remain the same - it will still increase, albeit at a reduced rate.

However, that can only be a good thing either way, and it's a good point :ok:

Honestly, flying instruction is poorly paid as it is without everyone flooding the market further while they wait out the poor airline market. With FI jobs getting harder to come by, the next step will be for schools to reduce wages further = no one can afford to instruct. If you don't have any instructional background then you are going into it for the wrong reasons. Having said that, can't blame people for wanting to stay in the game having spent much time and effort on the CPL/IR, must think about the wider implications and weather you really want to teach people.

TheGlide......

Most school's are still busy. Sorry it's Monday so I may be a bit slow but where did I mention having friends struggling to make ends meet???

The only friends I have that are struggling to make ends meet are the one's instructing. However if this was about money then I wouldn't even consider it. I can earn more money stacking shelves! The whole point of instructing for me is to stay current and as fresh as possible for when the jobs market recovers whenever that maybe. If it means taking a second job to live off then so be it.

As for people not listeneing to WWW's predictions of the end of the world...... Well according to him there should be mass rioting and ararchy on the streets by now....is there....NO! We don't need WWW to tell us what's going on in the world believe it or not. So it's not about people not listening. We've got the wonderful media to pedal the doom and gloom quite enough as it is!!!

But lets not turn this thread into another Doom and Gloom page. It's an interesting point regarding the FI rating at the moment and one that I'm still considering.

Any more thoughts folks???

You've seen the rioting in Paris & Athens I take it? The unemployment rate climbing to 14.4% in Spain this month, the secondary picketing of UK refineries which is spreading as we speak to power generating plants? The sharp rise in knife crime and the growing unrest for British jobs for British workers?

People said I was doom mongering in Sept 2007 when I was warning of a proper recession coming. You say I am doom mongering because I have been warning about civil unrest. It will happen because it always does happen when you have a deep recession and rising unemployment. I just hope we don't end up back in the situation seen in Liverpool, Birmingham and London where the rioting got so bad policemen had their heads hacked off in the street.

This is not ancient history you know - it was 1985.

Murder of Keith Blakelock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


WWW


ps I think £6.5k on an FIC plus the time it takes is a heavy investment at a time of lowering pay and position in the world of basic flying instruction. First FI jobs are all about PPL's. I would strongly believe that in a time of recession there will be a falling number of people interested in obtaining a PPL. So I wouldn't do it.

Oh no, we're not going to hear about that bloody house again are we!?

Just messing, made me chuckle :p

Anyway guys, it cannae be that bad, it IS snowing after all!

Yeah it took me 10 mins to get the car out of the gym car park this morning. Snow makes a nice change. Although taking my dog (a Dalmation) for a walk in a snow packed field made for interesting times......watching a random collection of spots running around 300 yards away is a new experience!

WWW - I hadn't seen the rioting abroad if I'm honest. But I doubt the crumbling economy is the sole cause of that. 9/10 people are pissed off at the moment, including me, but I don't feel particualry inclined to go and hack off a coppers head....although another speeding ticket and I may!!!! Just all seems a bit extreme to me. Alright so things are pants in the economy and people are losing their jobs by the day. But I would be amazed if we see scenes like 1985 any time soon. Mind you I suspect they didn't expect it back then either....best tool up then! :E

FI Employment Prospects
 

I hate to be the bearer of doom and gloom but I'll share my experiences with you and you can make your own mind up.

I finished my fATPL and MCC last May and spent 6 fruitless months seeking employment, had a few 'nibbles' but nothing came of them. So I started to investigate the FIC route, I downloaded a standards document from the CAA website which detailed every flight school in the UK authorised to teach PPL. As a married family man living in Somerset I wanted to teach at a school where I could at least stand half a chance of getting home weekends to see the family. So I drew a line across the country at Birmingham and emailed every scholl South of that line to see what the employment situation was.

About 40 or 50 schools bothered to reply and they all said pretty much the same things:

They have enough instructors (several were looking to lay off instructors).
None of their instructors have their notice in and if they did put their notice in they would be allowed to leave and would not be replaced.
The CFI has a huge pile of CVs from qualified FIs looking for work and that my CV would just go to the bottom of the pile.
All the FI schools have their courses booked up so loads of FIs are qualifying and looking for jobs.
Many airline pilots being laid off have instructor tickets and are snapping up FI jobs.
Basically the message was that unless I get a job lined up before commencing the FIC then I would spend 6 weeks and £7000 on the course and still not be in employment, I'd just be £7000 poorer.

Obviously faced with this information I scrapped the idea of the FIC, I would definitely recommend that anyone considering signing up for an FIC should do their research and go into the course with their eyes open, it really is a case of 'buyer beware'

Again I'm sorry for being the bearer of doom and gloom but this was the situation that I faced. If any of you do decide to go ahead with the course then I sincerely wish you every success in the course and in finding gainfull employment after the course. Perhaps if you do find employment you could come onto this thread and rub my nose in it for having no guts and commitment.

Cheers

MM

magicmick.....

Great post. Cheers for that. I'm still a little undecided but your post has put another nail in the coffin of the FI rating for me unless I was offered a job prior to embarking on the additional training. As you said, I too am not really willing to go and spunk another £7k on training without knowing it'll pay off.

I've said above that me looking at instructing isnt about the money and is very much about staying current and fresh. However, it would become all about the money if I did the FI and couldn't get an instructing job. Fine line between having some invaluable experience and something beneficial on the CV and having another rating but no hours instructing and another £7k to pay back. hmmmmmmmm......

FS :ugh:
(Off to find a big wall to bang my head against!!!)