If you can afford to spend the money on the course and lose it, then do it. It will increase your chances of gaining an instructing job when things pick up even if that's years away; I reckon it will be! To be honest, how many can afford to lose that kind of money right now?

I think if I was a wannabe right now I would probably spend a couple of grand on a good computer flight simulation setup and settle on a job outside of aviation (if you're lucky). At least that way when things do pick up your IFR skills will be fairly sharp. Not exactly living the dream, but a better way of keeping it alive I suggest.

An honest personal experience from Magicmick.
Perhaps that says it all.
Tough times boys and girls, I'm sorry to say.

Thanks for that MagicMick.

I think it unlikely that anyone will ever get an offer of a job before doing the course.

I did the FIC in 1998. I tried to get tentative offers before throwing away my office job to attend the FIC. At that point I had been a volunteer gliding instructor for several years and had taught around 30 16yr olds to fly Grob109b motorgliders. I was also working as a Training & Development Officer in industry and was actually teaching people how to conduct workplace training. I had glowing references from my VGS and UAS Commanding Officers and had nearly 500hrs total time with experience of taildraggers and aerobatic aircraft. The economy was really starting to boom with that nice Mr Blair in charge and house prices starting to rise and rise.

And I couldn't anything more than a non-committal offer to read my CV once I had the FI ticket in my hand.

Not even from the school down the road where I'd done my PPL and hour building who were busy and always needed new Instructors as the summer progressed.


It just doesn't happen. If there was a biting shortage of FI's and queues of people wanting PPL courses it might happen in theory. But now - no chance.


WWW

Agree with WWW, there is absolutely no way any flight school will offer you a gauranteed job before comitting to FI Course. I suppose its a matter of luck and timing similar to airline jobs. If you're in the right place in the right time you'll get a job once you have the FI Rating.

I think people people are disregarding the fact that Instructors don't only teach PPL's, especially part timers. Most of their flying hours are actually Trial lessons and AOC charter flights i.e scenic flights etc. With the spring approaching (best time to fly), many people are going to be making the most of their weekends. Granted the economy is not great and will not be for the next few years, but the only people to suffer in these uncertain times are people made redundant, or have seen a great decrease in their income (and also most of us pilots / wannabees). those that are fortunate enough to keep their jobs will probably have a bit of extra cash to spend (due to the lowering interest rates) and its these people who will spend their weekends in flying clubs for trial lessons whether or not they commit to a ppl. Would anybody agree with these thoughts??

Personally, I cannot commit to full time instructors job yet because the pay would not be enough for me to survive. I would only do it Part time during this year and then see if i can afford to go full time later.

A couple of days ago i was leaning towards ''FIC is a wise decision''. Today i'm back to 50/50 taking into account MagicMick and WWW's comments.

Appreciate all your comments so far people. keep them coming.


regards
MHN

Have to agree. Save your money. Don't do it. Just keep current with the licence you have for now until things change.

This all very well saying wait until things get better, fine if your early twenties and got time on your side.

I don't, I'm 34 I have 14 ATPL's on a time limit. at least I'm in with a chance if I have an FI ticket, even if it's weekend work and I will gladly move abroad. If I just stick with my PPL Then I've obviously no chance. You got to be in it to win it.

Most airlines don't give a stuff about your age until you get to 50.

34 is young.

Your rating will expire in 2 years with no work.


WWW

WWW,

We take it you wouldn't do an FIC (and that is probably sound advice) but what would you do then?

I'd save money to help keep your IR current whilst job hunting for the next 4 years. Any additional funds would go towards the self sponsored type rating fund for the future.

You *can* keep your instrument flying skills somewhere near very cheaply on a home Flightsim and then hire a few hours in a basic instrument trainer which shouldn't cost more than £50 an hour.

The job market you can do nothing about. Making sure you pass the Sim Ride assessment you can.


WWW

WWW, thanks. Pretty much what I've been doing so far but the hours build slowly!

WWW - sound advice - on top of that, if anybody does decide on keeping up to date via home simulators, I don't care how many pages and topics could be created on the issue, stay clear of Microsoft flight sim and get X-Plane, I used to have it (still do in fact!) and it's very realistic and accurate for instrument flight practice.

If you want to fly circles around Ayre's Rock get Microsoft FS...

Ad

I know this is encroaching slightly on another subject but since you talk about being an FI to build hours, some airlines appear to be of the opinion that they would rather employ a low hour with current IR than the slightly higher hour instructor.

Just something else to bear in mind.

I personally reckon (or maybe just hope) that aviation will start to pick up again about half way through 2010. So maybe 2009 would be a good year to either work hard and save money or go off and travel the world (if you can afford it).

Quote above sums it pretty good. To add I'd also say that FI work is loads of fun. The pay might be low at first but will pick up as you gain experience (CPL instructing etc), at least it did for me.

Also FI licence will be an advantage when applying for instructor/training vacancies once you land a job in an airline.

If FI jobs are not available near you, go abroad. There are plenty of countries suffering from lack of instructors since the last reqruiting boom emptied the schools from experienced FI's. You also get to see places and different aviation culture from your own.

Also adding IRI(A) to your FI once you've got the IR experience will broaden your job horizons (doing part time IR instructing is paid quite well).

Good luck,

t. Olabade

ps. Passed my IRI(A) skill test yesterday

Some sound if rather blund advice on here. My view is that if you really enjoy instructing and want to teach, do the FI rating and you will find a post eventually. You may earn just about enough to live off, but on the upside, getting paid for doing what used to be your hobbie can't be bad!

If you are just looking for any flying job during these difficult times and wouldn't otherwise look twice at instruction, best to save your money due to the poor state of the FI job market, and look elsewhere.

Believe it or not there is FI work out there!! i know this for a fact..

I talked to an FI(I) a little while ago who told me very sensibly that there would never be a job offer made before they had a chance to look at your skill at teaching flying.. Think about it folks; if you were in the schools shoes wouldnt you want to see a prospective employee teach (albeit on the FI course) before offering them a job.. Be in no doubt if you get your FI rating and apply at another school where they dont know you; you will generally be asked to "teach" the CFI a lesson before an offer of employment is made..

so ask yourself this question.. Do i have the personality and ability to teach?? If yes go for it. I did and half way through my FIC i was told "we have no positions here but i know someone who runs another school and wants you to work there". This is how it happens..

Slight twist to the original post - If you were an experienced airline pilot with 4500+ hrs flying the line, but through no fault of your own suddenly find yourself jobless would you shell out the £6000 or so to do an FI course?

It's something to do, its something you would enjoy and as has already been stated its a way to "keep your hand in". I imagine for some schools the fact that you've flown for airlines already would be a bonus when considering employment, conversely of course there may be others that would prefer a "self-improver".



With regard to the original poster, my personal opinion says don't bother save your money too. It's a hellish situation. We're not talking about a few job losses here, we're talking thousands of full ATPL experienced pilots now looking for work. A lot of them have seen this before, the airline industry is notoriously boom and bust. Have you tried Ryanair? They are after low hours guys, but it will no doubt cost you more than £6000. At least you may get a salary at the end of it.

Please respect that I'm not trying to shatter yours or anyone else's dream and by all means try anything you can to get your first job. Just realise that it is a gamble and you should only ever gamble with what you can afford to loose.

Once again thanks for all your input people, its much appreciated.

Jimbojet - appreciate your comments, I've tried Ryanair but was unsuccessful... May try again soon when they actively start recruiting again. I'm the kind of guy that gambles on certain winners only and it seems my gambling talents will not be enough in this situation.

My school is fully booked for FI Ratings until April so firstly, i have two months to decide whether to go ahead with it, Secondly this poses a problem of the FI market now being saturated as well. My school is very busy all year round and the fact they have so many people going for the FI rating is anther problem within itself.

Firend of mine has just finished FI rating and got a job so the jobs are there.

I'm seriously considering the opinions of people who suggested saving money for SSTR's if and when they are offered.

At this time, my only fear is not doing anything for 5 years or so waiting for the market to improve. Im 25 (i know its not too old.. but 5 years later I'll be a 30 year old with either 260 hrs total time or an Instructor with (hopefully) at least a few thousand hours. What would be appealing to an employer. I know Ryanair prefer low hour guys cos they turned down an excellent instructor with a few thousand hours because '' he didn't fit their profile'' even though his assessment was probably one of the best on the day.

more ideas and opinions welcome.

Regards
MHN

Instructor
 

Do an instructor raring it will put you in good stead forever,everyone of my counterparts are now training Cpts on big jets as its always looked at later on in life.

DONT listen to the do nots its a great move even if you get stuck doing it for ages,in the bad times you can fall back on it and whether you teach on C152s or B747-400s its all the same,its about human watching and all the good TREs are ex C152 instructors or most of them.

Good luck ,ex C152 instructor now cpt on the upper deck!!1:ok:

Anybody got any more idea's, opinions or advice??

I'm booked in to start the FI Rating next month.

MHN

Heaven forbid that teaching a student to fly well, enjoy themselves and fly safely would appear on anybody's list of 'advantages'!

Just the type of instructors flying clubs don't really need.

Flying instructing at PPL level never was meant to be a career for the multitude of budding commercial pilots - although it has for many, including myself, been a means of gaining hours at a low cost. I did at least put effort into the job and spent many hours teaching ground subjects on non-flying days and in the winter evenings. I was best man at the wedding of one of my students - he at least appreciated the effort I put in!!!

People seem to have lost track of the flying club mentality and see flying instructing as a somewhat selfish means of achieving their own ends at the expense of someone else - whether that be the flying school and/or the student.

That said, I would recommend anyone to complete an FI course - just remember, as with any teaching job, you're there for the student, not yourself!

KR

SITW :)

Yup,

Currently have to live at the airport that i am instructing at..:bored:
But i love it, and wouldn't change it for the world:ok:

You'd Be Mad To Go Fi Without A Job Agreed
 

I agree with spanner and must add the following: Don't do it, unless you have a job agreed at least in principle before hand! It is all very well a 747 Capt posting that he started as a 152 instructor and look where he is now, but that is from someone who probably hasn't looked at PPL instruction recently. Misinformed and poor advice is the last thing you need after the debt and expense of a FATPL and another £7k debt and at best a part time job is not going to help you.

There really are no FI jobs at the moment, there were some when this thread started, but that was when all the guys who couldn't get into airlines thought quick enough to start an FI course instead, they have all graduated now and hovered up the few jobs remaining, many are unemployed or working part time making less than £100/week.

My local school normally has trouble recruiting full time FIs due to location, but is now receiving daily enquiries from instructors looking for jobs, even from airline guys who have had their hrs drasticly cut and looking to keep flying, or who fear redundancy.

Sorry to be so negative, but I am well placed to tell your the true situation. Please consider your situation carefully, perhaps the school you are enrolled with has offered a job at the end? Either way, best of luck.

there are jobs...
 

Guys and girls; honestly there are FI jobs out there.. ok; i may be a slightly experienced instructor but..

very recently relocated to the Derby area and thought i would like some very part time FI work.. knowing nothing about the local schools etc as have not been in this area in my life; looked at vfr chart for nearest airfields; then found schools on internet and emailed school explaining myself and was told let us know when you can come in for chat. did the same at another location. as it turns out will be doing part time FI work at a school where i used to work. all his scouting around took all of ten minutes without doing more than typing on a keyboard and picking up a phone. I made 3 approaches to schools and got 3 positive responses.

Believe me i am nothing special so if i can find work you lot can.. do the FI course.

Mile High Nutcase


Ask yourself some questions and answer them brutally honestly.

1. Can I afford the money for the FI rating, along with the time needed to invest in myself?

2. If there was no option of ever flying for an airline, would I seriously consider it as a career choice?

3. Do I really want to do this? Can I cope with teaching, spending an entire day doing circuits for the umpteenth time with someone I wouldn't even consider sharing a beer with outside of work?

4. Am I capable of enjoying instructing regardless of aeroplane type, student type, weather, lack of money?

5. Am I going to become trapped into PPL instructing due to lack of funds? Do I have a get out if it should be required?

6. Did I want to instruct before the market turned belly up?

The guy who started this thread is asking whether it is worth him doing an FIC being that there are no airline jobs, so he's looking to build hrs fast and earn some kind of a living. Part time isn't going to achieve either of these points. £7k for 5hrs a week flying? Not worth it, and only going to worsen his financial issues.

Yes, flying schools will always be keen to add experienced instructors to their part time list because they are under no obligation to provide flying for them and can use them during busy times.

I've already said my piece, and refer back to my last post.

Its dying on its backside in Instructor land.

It'll be back down to no retainers and £10 an hour by Christmas. There are already too many reports of FIC holders offering to work for free.

Run a mile.

WWW

Damp Down Expectations
 

Its maybe not the best time to start work as an FI although its really a question of your own personal circumstances and whether you have any offers of work

WWW is tryng to damp down expectations so that people dont waste money and get disappointed but that said none of us know what the future holds..

Some people were saying that fuel would now be beyond $200 last Xmas .. just goes to show that even the 'experts' get it wrong :O

And some of us was saying that the oil price was a sideshow and the real issue was the looming Depression...

There is not a cat in hells chance of MORE people deciding to do a PPL course in 2010 than in 2008 and there's not much more chance of any existing FI's getting jobs up the ladder from instructing. So where's the vacancies coming from for all these new FI's? The FIC courses and examiners have been very busy for a year.

The supply pump is flat out but I fear the demand pump is seizing.

WWW

don't waste your time to become a flight instructor.
it 's not a type rating and no jet time.
flight instructors are paid less 2000$/month, when they fly!!!
and you may be asked to fly in china, asia,...

keep your money, and keep your IR current for now.

A tough decision! I can only reiterate what others have said before me but if it was me in the <250hrs fATPL position I'd probably just sit tight and keep my IR current for the next year or two. Well, actually I'd look overseas for a bit of adventure, but that option doesn't suit a lot of people!

I wouldn't be looking at instructing as a means of earning money, or indeed building hours at the moment. I would personally see it as an opportunity to get maybe 10 hours a month to keep reasonably current and also to meet contacts. It will also look better a few years down the line when you go for an interview - at least it looks as though you tried to find work rather than sitting on your arse!! If you can afford 7k without taking a loan I'd say do it. If you can't - don't!!

Thanks for all your comments Gentlemen
 

securing a job before completing the FI course is almost impossible at the moment. I've spoken to the chief instructor on the phone at my school (pretending that i was already qualified FI looking for work) and was told i would only be considered for a job if the course is completed with them (at this point he did not know i was looking to start an FI course so he wasn't trying to sell his product to me). Full time positions were full last month but part time is and will be available in the coming months.

At this time my situation is that I would want to work part time cos i couldn't survive on full time salary. i already have a full time job which i can keep and fly almost all day everyday with.

answers to Andy R's questions answered brutally honestly.

1. Can I afford the money for the FI rating, along with the time needed to invest in myself? At this time Yes. My current job allows me to have multiple days off in a row, i still have loads of annual leave to take, I have the 7k for the course which took me only 20 months to save. Do not have large amounts of debt.

2. If there was no option of ever flying for an airline, would I seriously consider it as a career choice? Yes i would and truth be told I did when i first started training. Obviously i would love to fly an A380 one day or even concorde (if they bring it out of retirement) but IF i never ever get a job in an airline (and i have to be REALLY unlucky for that), I can be content with flying a C152 at 2000ft. My passion, determination comes from flying not walking around an airport in a fancy uniform. I'm not one of those poncy wannabees that will say ''I spent daddy's 80k on a fATPL, means i'm a qualified airline pilot. sitting in a cessna is beneath me..Er captain can i please ask the cabin crew for a coffee please sir...No you cant shut up!) As a career i want to advance and so CPL / IR instruction will always be on the table as well as examining and aerobatics.

3. Do I really want to do this? Can I cope with teaching, spending an entire day doing circuits for the umpteenth time with someone I wouldn't even consider sharing a beer with outside of work? I am a very patient person i have been told. hen i did my MCC, the instructor was a captain on a 767 and he said ''I have the perfect flight deck attitude''. he was referring to the fact that whether we were in S&L flight or dealing with emergencies, the tone of my voice stayed at a neutral level throughout (something i never realised until he told me). So i think i do have the patience and the attitude for the work.

4. Am I capable of enjoying instructing regardless of aeroplane type, student type, weather, lack of money? I love flying different types of airplanes, Weather i dont mind thanks to my CPL instructor who decided to fly in very sporting weather in the winter of 2008, i loved it. I think i'm quite a sociable guy so student types wouldn't bother me. I'm not prejudiced against anyone at all.

5. Am I going to become trapped into PPL instructing due to lack of funds? Do I have a get out if it should be required? I would definately move up the ladder and not just stick with PPL instruction. my get out would be my current job.

6. Did I want to instruct before the market turned belly up? It was always on the table. when i finished my fATPL i always said i try the airlines first and if nothing came along for say 6 months or so or would do instructing.

I'm not going down this route to build hours only but to do something about a career that i've chosen. This recession is probably going to last about 5 years and i want to make the most of it, otherwise when the upturn is upon us, i'll be competing with thousands of fATPL holders all the same boat as me.

I dont want to pay for a type rating without a guaranteed job at the end of it and i Refuse to pay for line training (i'm morally against it).

My decision is that i'm going to take a dive and do the course simply because i dont see myself loosing anything (except 7k but hey money comes, money goes. I worked for it so i deserve to spend it) but i only see gaining a rating, gaining valuable experience.

Am i making sense? Do people see valid points and reasons in this post as to how i've come to this decision.


Regards
MHN

Read this post in Flying Instructor forum
 

March 2009 - Instructing - what are we all getting paid

http://www.pprune.org/flying-instruc...ting-paid.html

yes do not waste your time by taking the FIC...

I am a FI, got a job a in FTO, well paid, I fly a lot more than when I was a good boy improving my skills on flight simulator (what a joke!). Flight school may pay IRI/CRI course if you want.

Stay at home, flying hours are not important.
Companies prefer FFS hours, good value. :ok:

In the same time I get experience, relationship (very important), and maintain my skills.
Thanks to that, I wait for TR course (paid by the company) cause I met a friend.

FI does not help you to find right seat in a big plane right away, but indirectly for sure.

but like otthers said, stay at home, other youngs will seriously think and take the opportunity.

Probably worth just keeping current at the moment to be honest. Popped in to Compton Abbas the other week and just got attitude with regard to insructor vacancies! Im not actually looking for FI work ( dont even have the rating) but just getting a feel for whats about. Whats on here is true! Sod all!

Shame about the attitude, but perhaps they are getting tired of people coming round looking for jobs. Still, its no excuse. Give it 2 years and places like that will be crying out (again) for instructors and won't let you leave without signing up. Until then, best to sit tight and enjoy your flying.

Exactly right tropicalfridge. I was just purely asking to see the response!

Well people,I finally have the answer to my question.

Is it worth doing an Instructor Rating during the Credit Crunch??


Answer ..... YES it definately is..

I started the course in April, finshed 7-8 weeks later.

A week and a half after completing the course, i got a phone call from the school saying they need me for part time instructor work (which is exactly what i wanted).

The course itself taught me loads of stuff and also refreshed all the studies i done ages ago.

All in all i dont think i've lost out on anything (except 6.5k which didn't hurt)

Regards
MHN

Well done mate, good for you. At least you will be able to exercise your privileges and build up some time in your log book.

Its the first step towards a career now.

Respect.:ok:

And well done for coming back on pprune and letting everyone know that there are good outcomes. :ok:

God forbid he might be actually able to pass on some skills to student pilots too.