Does CTC still do the CTC wings ATP program?

Read on the website they closed it in Feb...

CTC Hype again !!!
Talk is cheap and there is nothing like free publicity.

DHL Air are over crewed on F/O's at this time with 10 already selected pilots in the holding pool.
All recent joiners must relocate to Leipzig from December at their own expense.
Could you do that on £1000 per month plus flight pay circa £450.

Monarch and Easyjet returning cadets after 6 months, All other airlines facing a downturn in recruitment.
A surplus of experienced pilots on the market, more CTC cadets coming into the holding pool, soon we will need to block off the lake district to hold all the swimmers.

The 100% placement record is also not strictly true as I have spoken to people who have not been placed, or who have been thrown aside during or upon completing training. (CTC said they did not make their internal grades)
This reflects not just on CTC but some of the other establishments as well, they all have to protect their bottom line and reputations.

You may well have a better chance of a job after CTC training but in the present climate I doubt the difference will be very great.
Should you be an integrated or modular student or for that matter experienced the next 12 to 18 months will find the job market getting smaller, terms and conditions reducing and the SSTR route becoming more difficult to fund.

What I am saying here is that whatever route you take it wont be easy to become employed after training and CTC is certainly well connected, but so are the other major training schools.

Review your options carefully, and after taking out the hype and claims make your own decision on where to train.
Sterling (£) down against the Dollar ($) and Euro (€) which will raise the costs of training, thank whatever god you pray to that oil is now $65 per barrel.

The only axe I have to grind with CTC is their placement of cadets at a salary of £1000 for 6 months, with today's costs for training and living how can a newbee exist and pay back their training ?

Good Luck and go for your dream, If you have the motivation you will get there in the end.
Remember that there is more to aviation than the airlines, look to the air taxi, and other general aviation fields for that first job.

Daydreamer, as a current ctc cadet in the hold pool, i can tell you that we can afford to pay back the loans because we get a full salary after 6 months. We dont pay back our loans during the 6 months, then after 6 months we get the equivilant to a full salary..i.e its slightly reduced but we get £1000 on top tax free for loan repayments, it works out around £2800 a month in the first year so you will come out with £1800 in hand. thats for year 1. Based on EZY

I feel im in a good position as no one is hiring and when they do i wont have to apply, i just wait my turn in the cue for the job. So there is less worry. I have the licence in hand and recieved good training. Im annoyed that all this has happened when ive finished training but its not CTC's fault the downturn in the economy, it would be interesting to hear about how Oxford grads have been getting on since april time???? any ideas anyone. Our guys have been still going to British airways up unitl the recruitment freeze.

You have missed the point
Its the fact that you only get £1000 in each of the first 6 months that matters.
Every Airline pays better than that and our CTC cadets are still being supported from home until the 6 months are up then they get a similar increase in salary.
In effect you subsidise your own type rating.
Take a standard HSBC loan defered for 6 months, its still adding interest and usually cannot be defered longer than 9 months and is now secured on property, so the trick of going bankrupt to pay it off means who ever's property its secured on would still end up paying.
Its high time that you got a cadet rate for the job, not a pittance.
The SSTR's of Ryanair get paid more than that after release of their line training F/O cover, and within the 6 months are on about £3.2K per month.
Acording to figures from this very site.
Flybe new hires ex FTE / OAA about £2.0K per month and DHL recently mentioned here are on £2.3K.
I hate to see young pilots entering the job on very low salaries.
Just an aside when I started in 1972 senior cabin crew were on £1500 per year and a new second officer on £1200 per year, which was the full rate for the job.

In answer to your question OAA students have been getting jobs at Flybe, BA, Ryanair and others up until about a few weeks ago when the slump really hit home. Now its a different matter.

If you can get a job anywhere in aviation at the moment go for it.

Captain Spam Can,

I'm just about to start CTC on the ICP scheme, looks like ill be going out on 31st December CP 69 still waiting for the agreement with HSBC to be sorted. (What a day to go, and maybe an ironic course number to go on?)

I know or have heard that no ICP chap has finished yet, but have you heard any rumblings on how it could affect us, we're not quite on par with the wings guys when it comes to the final part of the course.

Also whats this bashing? I see the legendary WWW at it again, seems I missed it all! (Thank god!)

Jim

Hi daydreamer,

i can understand where your comming from but what im trying to say is i understand flybe offer around 2k a month but we will be on 3k a month as we get an extra 1k for the bond, if i or an oxford grad got a job at flybe then we would get 2k a month full stop and would have to pay 1k back out of that for the bond or the 80k that it cost to go OAT. so we would be on 1k for a lot longer than 6 months!!. I have thought about looking elsewhere but taking a job on something less than a 737 or a320 wouldnt pay the bills and still allow me to live comfortably due to the size of the bond. 1K a month for 6 months is hard i know but its only for 6 months and i dont have to fork out 30k for a type rating. Im not starting any debate on weather thats right or wrong im just saying from my personal situation, i dont have 30k in the bank...come to think of it i never had the 60k in the bank to start with, so without ctc id still be an office monkey 'Day dreaming'...(no pun intended..lol).
OAT seem to be in the same situation then, as BA have been taking up until a few weeks ago, ryanair...well anyone with 30k can go there. their not fussy about weather your integrated or modular, and flybe. CTC people as i said have been going BA who wanted that, most are holding out in the EZY hold pool and a few went to cityjet. TCX have taken about 10 of us guys on this month.


Jaimz1982, there wont be any effect on you as you wont enter the hold pool as you are Icp, it will just be like going to OAT where you will recieve top class training and it will be upon you to apply to the airlines yourself, and CTC will provide a report for you to the airlines. I wouldnt worry about jobs yet in your situation, in my time at CTC the airlines went up and down a dozen times...it changes overnight, just worry about not getting 'PR2'd..lol and enjoy yourself!!!

Capt spam can, don't count on the pay rise after 6 months, just in case you are like the recent 30 cadets (Ezy and Monarch) returned to the hold pool. Budget for longer but hope that you won't be affected. With things the way they are at the moment other cadets may find themselves being returned after 6 months as airlines look to manage seasonal demand in crew numbers. Hopefully not but you never know, pays to be prepared!

Sorry to hear that you can't afford to take a job on anything less than a B737 or Airbus.
The whole idea that getting onto a jet straight out of training is laudable but in todays climate it will only be for the very fortunate less than 10% of those available.
I agree with several posters on Pprune that going through air taxi, bush flying or other general aviation avenues give skills that can not be learnt in schools and generally make for a better pilot, call it an apprenticeship if you like but worth every hour of the experience.

You have still missed the point again in favour of the CTC hype the guys and girls at Flybe are getting a full salary, not a £1000 pittance so what they choose to spend it on is their choice and they were aware of the expenditure when they started their course at FTE OAA or wherever.

If you can convince me you should not be paid a fair rate for the job within the first 6 months, I am open to changing my mind on this matter.
However from an airline point of view you are low risk and cheap, also easy to get rid off if you excuse the pun.

Good Luck in the pool dont get cramp and wrap up warm when you come out its a cold world out there.

I think we understand both our points daydreamer, and i too a firm believer that bush flying, instructing..etc will make you a in general a better all round pilot, as airmanship is something which you build on with experiance and hours. I would love the chance to do all the prop jobs, and do some flying in and out of jungles etc..great experiances to be had, but then i might not have gone to such a good flight school and not be such an airline orientated pilot...who knows, i guess the never ending debate on pprune is there isnt one right way, just a way which suits you.

I just want to say as well that the ryanair comment i made is not to be taken as 'they take anyone', as they dont, i have friends who fly for them and friends who failed selection, i feel Ryanair have one of the best safety records in the industry, but i meant the OAT grads who go there, got the job off there own backs which is good for them, and they passed the tough selection but at the end of it all you can only start the Type rating providing you pay the 30k or whatever it is. Again there choice, no right or wrong, just whats right for them in their situation.

I predict dozens and possibly hundreds of 'cadets' with £80k bonds of whatever flavour will be standing in front of the Bankruptcy Court in 2009/2010. Which is entirely correct as the court exists to provide protection to people who honestly get themselves into unmanageable debt. Which is where many find themselves today and more will find themselves tomorrow.

What you have to realise, accept, believe is that there will be No Jobs for two years. The whole shuddering edifice of the flight training industry is continuing to pump out new pilots when none are required.

Guys with 1,000hrs jet hours in XL are still job hunting to no avail.

There's nothing out there.

Nothing.


WWW

I hate to say it but !!!!!

I agree with WWW, there are next to No Jobs out there unless you know someone who can put a word in for you, its not what you know any longer its who you know.

Bankruptcy is no an option for many as the loan was secured on property and the financial collapse will bring down the creditors on the person who put their property up as security.

Only non secured loans can achieve the Bankruptcy goal.

As for the ex XL people I am extreemly sorry for their predicament, but sorry wont pay their bills.
The OAA students who finished last / this year had loans in their names and were receiving additional payments from XL to cover their loans, now nothing.

For the CTC guys along with many others its going to be a long, Hard cold winter.
I agree with Day Dreamer, you are under paid and under valued and from the CTC viewpoint a cheap pilot who can maximise their profits.
There is no guarantee that after 6 months you will not be returned into the holding pool while Easyjet can take on more cheap pilots.

Whilst I agree that under current economics to have lower cost pilots is good for the company bottom line, I feel that the prospects for those in the CTC holding pool are the lowest they have been for many years.
Brush off the backup plan, and like Day Dreamer said get take any aviation job that comes your way.

I think flybe will be a steady recruiter for low hours. The flybe business model seems to be holding up very robust agains the current turmoil, plus their continued expansion. Good news for the fte/cabair/oaa grads. Bad news for the CTC cadets as I dont think they are a partner airline.

How long before CTC jumps on the Ryanair bandwagon!?

morning alll...

im starting training at ctc on dec 1st in hamilton, and staying at i think its called peachgrove? correct me if im wrong, just wondering whats this accommodation like? and also when you guys were in New Zealand did you get many weekends off? sorry if this is a repost of such or if it is in wrong thread.

Tim

peachgrove is correct indeed! last time i was there it was fine! comfy beds! good atmosphere from what ppl told me recently. And the time off kinda varies, initially while ur doing groundschool u might get saturday afternoon and sunday off, then once ur flying it just varies depending how much or little flyin ur doing! And u'll prob wanna grab any chance u can get to go flying even if it means being in on weekends. Hope that helps! Kx

cool thanks for that! how long is it from when you start ground school til when you start your flying?

thanks for your help much appreciated

http://www.stuff.co.nz/images/768353.jpg KELLY HODEL/Waikato Times
STINKER: The pilot of this CTC Aviation plane from Hamilton escaped injury after it overshot the runway and landed in the sewage ponds beside the Thames airfield yesterday morning.



Pilot a bit flushed after landing in sewage pond

By BELINDA FEEK - Waikato Times | Tuesday, 28 October 2008

A pilot got himself in the poo yesterday after his plane overshot the runway coming in to land at the Thames airfield.

The pilot - from Hamilton's training school, CTC Aviation - made a sudden landing and ended up dunked in the town's sewage pond system.
Crew Training Centre Aviation chief executive John Jones said the man was on a navigation exercise to build up his flying hours.
However, a suspected engine problem near Thames meant the pilot was caught short - and had to make an immediate landing.
"It wasn't weather or wind. We think there was a cough in the engine, but we're not sure yet." The plane had since been pulled out of the pond and was grounded until it had been inspected.
Mr Jones said it was unlikely the Civil Aviation Authority would be called in and the pilot was uninjured.
"It's not a serious issue. When you put it into perspective we do 45,000 flying hours a year, which is probably the most out of all the airlines in New Zealand apart from Air New Zealand."
Mr Jones said the pilot was uninjured.
"He was fine. Just a bit wet."
He didn't think the pilot realised what he had landed in.
Mr Jones said he was impressed with the way the pilot handled himself and the incident.
"I think he did quite well to be honest. You get these things."
The Thames SPCA is next to the airfield and manager Rebecca Pearson said the pilot came over to use their phone.
"He was good. He was pretty much in shock and very wet ... He wasn't wanting to say too much."
Ms Pearson said of all the ponds to land in, it was probably the best as it contained the less concentrated effluent.

Waikato Times: local, national & world news from Waikato's daily newspaper

haha yeah funny sh*t saw that on the news, goodtimes lol

3 News > Video > National > Pilot crash lands into sewage pond

Pilot crash lands into sewage pond

http://www.3news.co.nz/Portals/0-Art...unking_180.jpg
Mon, 27 Oct 2008 6:44p.m.

A trainee pilot created a stink after crashing his plane off the runway at Thames Airport this morning, landing in a sewage pond.
The man was flying solo and scrambled from the cockpit after the splash landing. The only injury he suffered was to his pride and his shoes.
"He got out by himself and swam a short distance to shore," Constable Steve Malloy says. "He was checked by the ambulance crew and was fine."
The pilot was a trainee with CTC Aviation, but did not want to talk about the incident.
CTC's chief executive John Jones says the pilot heard his engine cough during the botched landing, but it is too early to say what caused it.
Engineers have not decided if the plane can be repaired, but it is likely to have been badly damaged by the highly acidic effluent.
3 News

Accommodation
 

There are three (main) accommodation places in Hamilton and in terms of locations...

Clearways, the main one, is here:
-37.844427, 175.339737 - Google Maps

Knox St is here:
7 Knox Street, Hamilton, New Zealand - Google Maps

Peachgrove is here:
44 Peachgrove Rd, Hamilton, New Zealand - Google Maps

I'll let you find the airport yourself.

Always used to think that if you ever had to ditch you would be right in the poo but............! All in all thats bit of a sh1tter isn't it!!! :)

Just clearing up a couple of misconceptions
 

Cpt SC, I hate to be the devil's advocate here but my understanding is the reason that CTC cadets only get paid £1000 for the first six months is that the remainder of their salary is used by the airline to pay CTC for the cadets' type rating. So you are in effect funding your own type rating (but at a much reduced rate so in a lot of ways it is still a good thing).

And I believe that there is a clause in the contract which prevents cadets declaring themselves bankrupt to avoid their loans.

If you're bankrupt, you're bankrupt - you cannot pay your creditors. It is for a judge to decide and stamp your bankruptcy petition, not CTC! The judge may of course reject your application.

However, the 12 months following your bankruptcy can see the court imposing a repayment program if you do then start earning money of sufficient quantities which they consider should be paid to your creditors. That can last up to 5 years.

in a way im glad im doing it in new zealand cos we get the student loans etc and no matter what happens we just paying a percentage of our salary back to the govt till payed off, although would love to be able to get type rating like you guys.

another few questions....

how long into the ground school will i start flying? are us kiwis in classes with the british people?

cheeeers for the help.

I see the ctc cadets are not just landing themselves in huge amounts of debt but are landing in vast amounts of SH*T :}

To all prospective CTCers
 

A few things all prospective CTCers should know.

1. It is not a sponsored scheme.

From the CTC Wings Cadet site...
Total Bo**ocks. You pay £60,000, or whatever it is these days. IF (and I'll come to this later) you get a permanent job at the end, your salary is £12,000 a year less than the normal F/O salary which goes to paying back your loan.... plus interest. You are paying for your training. End of.

2. CTC have created this pilot excess themselves.
Once upon a time, there were 4-6 cadets a course. Now there are 16 (give or take a few). In the current climate, it would be hard enough placing 4 cadets a month, let alone 16. Money talks.

3. The scheme is designed for airlines to take on dirt cheap pilots for 6 months and enable them to dump them at the end should they so desire. If the airline then wants more pilots, they can take a new batch of dirt cheap pilots and keep this cycle going.

End result? A rapidly growing pile of type rated pilots with 400hrs on type with little to no job prospects anywhere else. It is the reality. It's happening now. Wake up to it.

4. Wings iCP is a money making product using their currently good name.
Chief Pilot: So you went through CTC?
Cadet: Yes.
Chief Pilot: So did you do the Wings Cadet or Wings iCP?
Cadet: iCP
Chief Pilot: Why?
Cadet:...................................?

I am stating facts, not opinions. Feel free to deduce any opinions that you wish.

cheers for that mate much appreciated, looking forward to life down there! hopefully it aint too frustrating on the ground just wanting to fly haha.

is this eagle placement just a one off or is it looking to be continued? i heard from a pilot that they might have mucked up a lil bit in the process? hope not but good on them for getting through!

Sorry, I meant the loan contract with the bank, not the training contract with CTC so you are right: it is not up to CTC to decide whether you are bankrupt or not.

A few more things all prospective CTCers should know
 

sharpclassic, you are right, even though CTC say that the scheme is sponsored in my mind it is not. You do indeed pay for your training and your salary (before the amount given to you for bond repayment) is £12,000 less per year. However at the same time you get a lot more training for your for £60,000 than you have actually paid for: namely the Airline Qualification Course (containing the Multicrew Co-operation Course and the Jet Orientation Course) and the cheap type-rating so you could argue that there is a sponsorship aspect there.

I do have to disagree with you with regards to your third point though. Apparently easyJet is actually treating the cadets they have not been able to offer positions to after their line training pretty well. While they are indeed not currently able to hire them currently they are continuing to pay them the portion of their salary which is used to repay their bond (£1,000 a month) and have said that they will offer them positions again when things pick up after the winter. This to me doesn't sound like an airline just dumping cadets in able to take up a new batch of dirt cheap pilots.

Sharpclassic

'4. Wings iCP is a money making product using their currently good name.
Chief Pilot: So you went through CTC?
Cadet: Yes.
Chief Pilot: So did you do the Wings Cadet or Wings iCP?
Cadet: iCP
Chief Pilot: Why?
Cadet:...................................?'

Are you trying to ambigously say somethng? Do you have experience of this response?

I'm on the ICP scheme and quite proud of it. If I get that question then I will simply say I missed the maths by 2 questions, but was offered the ICP scheme. I then took it because I feel / felt that CTC would give me the best training from the FTO's available.

I would like to think that an employer would look at your training record as a whole and not the fact you missed one scheme by a very small margin.

Flightless Bird,

Maybe so, but if EZY are unable to offer these guys full time contracts, why are a number of 'pay-to-fly' pilots being put throught their line training at this moment?


Jaimz,

All im saying is that the iCP scheme is no different from any other training school in the world. You pay your money, you get your licence.

Anyone been to the new phase 2/3 selection day in the past couple of months?

did mine in september, gonna reapply in early march. good day, i recommend you stay there overnight so your as fresha s you can be ;), you'll also get some very helpful tips off some very nice people.

I do not know about this (and try to only talk about things that I do know about so that PPRuNe remains a useful resourse). One possibility though is that they have a contract with these pilots who are paying for their line training so are obliged to continue with their training even if they would rather it were the CTC cadets flying in their place but as I said I am not sure, sorry.

Those ATP guys and gals are a source of revenue for the airline. Although CTC cadets are cheaper than direct entry F/Os, the ATP cadets are making the airline money, so why would they stop offering seats which people pay for, even if they are at the pointy end?

Maybe you think it is an abuse, but for a lot of us is the unique chance in our lifes to become an airline pilot.

From my point of view, CTC Wings is the people who will make my dream become real (if I am lucky), since I am in my reapplication.

Have good flights.

That's with the proviso that if they agree to this deal then all other contracts/deals with EZY & CTC are considered expired.

Translation: we think you would have a chance of winning if you took us/CTC to court for breach of contract, so we're hoping you're desperate enough to take a pathetic amount of money to go away and keep quiet instead of fighting. Oh and easyJet can cancel this deal at any time (like, for instance, the week after you sign it and before you get any cash).

How does it sound like they're treating people now?

You know, when you analise these bonds, are they really not a rip off?

Are the airlines not claiming training grants, government subsidies, huge volume discounts from the training organisations etc etc then, adding admin charges etc etc, not to mention claiming back the VAT and setting the training cost off against profit and therefore corporation tax (if, they are in profit!!)

I wonder what the true cost of your bond really is!!

Just a thought!!

Hi can some one PM me with the planes that are flown in New Zealand,

I've heard it's Cessnas and Robins, if so which ones?

Any helps appreciated,

Thanks

Jim

Not too sure which Robins & Cessnas but they also have Diamond DA40 and the DA42 Twinstar

Hi Clear prop!!!

Just a few queries about your post above:

• What training grants are you referring to?
• Which government subsidies are available to airlines for pilot training?
• How can the airlines get a volume discount from something they don't pay for?
• To offset a cost against corporation tax, you need to spend something; if the airlines are not paying for the training, they cannot offset the costs, can they?
• To reclaim VAT, an VAT registered organisation must first have paid the VAT as an input tax. Are the airlines paying VAT; if so, what on? If they are, then the net effect will be nil as thy will reclaim it, so what is the benefit to them?
• What is included in the "etc, etc"?

Not a journalist are you? Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. :ok: