Mr1862,

It's a real shame that you are having such a hard time, especially when you are the paying customer!

Flight training is certainly not cheap, and I think it is great that you are prepared to share your experience so far.

Informed choice should be available to all prospective students, and from my experience schools are very good at fudging statistics.

Mind it is a business!

As a cadet who shares a CP with mr1862, I would like a few notes to go on the record.

1. mr1862 is being disingenuous as to the nature of these breaks, and he knows better. Overall, of the four instructors who have taken classes with the CP; cadets were (and are) very pleased with 3 instructors and less so with a 4th. Such is life.

2. The accommodation to which mr1862 refers is widely considered to be sub-standard, as result CTC have agreed to review their lease on the property.

3. You clearly don't get out very much.

4. Cadets on mr1862's CP are beginning find his persistent whinging quite tedious, and feel that he might benefit from a more positive outlook on life.

I think both of you should get off the internet and do some studying.

I sound like my dad.

Funny how Mr1863 comes with all his superfluous, nugatory comments under the guise of a highly original username created just after my post, yet doesn't have the b*lls to say it to my face in class. ;) Talk about creating tension amongst your fellow colleagues now... a highly desirable pilot quality, sir! :D

I don't know, but where I come from, we have a) a certain standard of living and b) expectation of money paid vs product received - an argument that has been fought in courts worldwide and often won by the consumer. PM me for case law examples, I have loads.

And thanks for using your personal knowledge to almost centre out exactly who I am or, at least, where I live for the purposes of the hidden CTC staff on here. You're the man! :ok:

I appreciate that one of the main routes to a FO position realistically is with CTC and Easyjet or OAA and Ryanair but what are the intake statistics for both of the FTO’s

What do we know?
OAA placed 188 pilots in 2012
CTC I presume is standing by its 100% placement record
So what is the total intake of both schools per year – is it 12 months X 15 cadets giving 180 or is it more with many not getting placed?

Are CTC Cadets still getting screwed with the bad Easyjet Flexicrew deal at the end training or has that changed and improved?

My question is, IF I were to train as an integrated student with CTC - towards the end of the course - let's say I am 'fortunate' and Easyjet decide to take me on. On a Flexicrew basis.

Would I be able to say - thanks, but no thanks. Then apply for a RHS at an airline such as Flybe (example only). What are the chances that an airline that are not a partner of CTC would be sympathetic towards you?

All the time I guess CTC would have views on this also.....

Well, Mr 1862, so much for the idea of taking a deep breath!
I think pipersam probably has given the best advice. As I mentioned earlier the course you are on will be timetabled, and although they usually streamline into two or more groups at the flying stage, each course should broadly complete all of their stages within the programmed schedule. By its very nature, that means there are times when some people get ahead, and then have to wait for the rest of the group to catch up. The waiting can sometimes be very frustrating, but that is just part and parcel of flying generally.

Turner661, other people will be able to give you a more qualified answer, but my understanding is that you can decline an offer of placement, but that doesn't ensure another would then be offered on any sort of "seniority" basis. If you were offered a job at an airline outside of the placement scheme that would be fine. Your bond would satisfy your training course costs to date and the contract would be satisfied on both sides. In other words, I don't believe you could then go back and request a placement if things didn't work out with the employer.

As I understand it, the airline placement is the final advanced stage of the course, and the terms very much depend on the airline customers themselves. For some there are additional costs. For some there are no additional costs. Each one is very different, because the terms prevailing are based on those offered by the airline partner. There is usually no guarantee that an employment contract will dovetail from these placements, although everybody hopes that one will. The number of placements on offer will also depend on both the market and seasonal needs of each of the airline partners. The combination of these demands will always mean that any predictions are subject to change.

Can anybody provide the intake wings cadet or oaa APPFO course totals for say Jan to Dec 2012?

I would suggest that these figures are requested from the associated FTO's. Information regarding actual numbers given by anyone else would probably be inaccurate.

Dear mr1862,

I am sincerely sorry that you have interpreted my previous post as a personal attack, particularly as there are a number of issues on which I sympathise with your position. I was merely expressing an alternative opinion, one which I had hoped you'd be big enough to allow. There are a number of reasons why I felt compelled to do so, which I will outline in the interests of greater understanding.

Firstly, you have attempted to cast doubt over the professionalism of a particular instructor. The instructor in question is self-evidently a skilled and experienced teacher who is highly committed the work of getting CTC cadets through their exams with top marks. You have done so primarily because you are unhappy with other aspects of CTC. I think that is wrong.

Secondly, persistent suggestions of legal action will ultimately engender a negative impression of our CP with the management of CTC. A impression that says we are unable to compromise, lack motivation and are generally here to cause trouble. I know that that could not be farther from the truth.

Lastly, I would hope that prospective cadets reading this thread would come away with a balanced and realistic image of CTC (after all that was us only months ago). While I respect your opinion, its not the whole story, and its important to redress that.

As I have already said, I have absolutely no desire to attack you personally. In that spirit, I will refrain from making remarks about your people skills or speculating as to how many balls you have.

mr 1863
(consider my name a tribute, rather than a rip off)

Its a guinea pig actually.

CTC is a pilot sausage factory, one I and many others before have had the 'pleasure' of being processed through. They make money by getting as many people on courses as possible. They, i.e. CTC/ARL/OAA/Parc/eJ/any other cost critical business don't CARE about you at all. It's about making as much profit for as little cost as possible. Wake up to reality.

At the end of the day, they can screw you because there are loads of people who want that coveted jet job and will pay endless amounts to get there. Expect this to continue even into 'employment' if FlexiCrew is here to say.

Don't get me wrong. I love my chosen career and wouldn't change it for the world. I do however hate the terms on which I am employed and would not recommend it to anyone, nor would I recommend CTC to anybody hence why I do not help out at any of their roadshows or careers days. I would much rather be on the BALPA stand telling people the reality of the industry than helping CTC exploit even more young aspiring pilots with Mum and Dad's cash.

You cannot just walk in to CTC, get your licence then expect a lucrative flying job. I emplore anyone reading this in this position to have a back up plan otherwise risk being disappointed.

Oh btw, were you expecting luxury treatment when you signed up?? :ugh:

could anyone in the know please advise how the £40,000 bond protection works? does that cover failure at any point of the course, or just the course in its entirety? in other words, say a student fails the ground school, will they be refunded their first bond payment as part of the bond protection? thank you!

Re: Bond protection
 

I think the bond protection has increased since I did it and it is likely the terms and conditions have changed so someone else may have to update this.

As I understand, the bond protection will not cover the first £10,000 (eg groundschool phase) and you are liable for this if you fail. If you fail later on in the training, you are eligible to get your bond returned to you up to a maximum of £40,000. This may not be exactly correct even when I did it (I am not reading from the contract but it should give you a rough idea). Best thing to do would be to contact CTC directly about it.

If you put in the effort you will complete the ground school so I wouldn't attempt the course if you don't feel up to the challenge.

Thanks so much. :)

Also, are any current CTC FlexiCrew pilots on here? Would appreciate 1 or 2 quick answers via PM. Nothing hectic.

PitchPitch, you appear to have no idea what you are talking about. CTC makes a majority of their money from sending cadets to Partner Airlines, and it does so very well.

I doubt very much you can even spell CTC, let alone have attended their exemplary school.

Please be more convincing next time you lie on these forums.

The bond protection does cover the first £10,000, if you drop out at the ground school phase, you can get a percentage of your costs back.

So what's the verdict chaps?
Do the aspiring airline pilots of the future go through CTC or not? What other realistic options have they got?

SELECTION 20 FEB 2013
 

Hey guys anyone been to a recent selection day or are attending selection with ctc on 20th feb?

thanks

:{

Hey G-CFMX. Im attending the selection with CTC on the 20th Feb. I've got to say im pretty excited but a bit nervous at the same time.

So it seems EZY is offering current Flexicrew (ex-CTC)/Parc contractors permanent contracts, albeit on undesirable t&c. Good news for ex-cadets in terms of income security, and also means these pilots will stick with the airline for much longer than has been the case in recent years. This probably means far fewer placements for CTC graduates with the airline going forward:

* EZY is still growing, but far less than in previous years - 7 new a/c this year compared to 21 in 2012.
* MON took 24 cadets, but this does not reflect any long term trend... They gained a few airframes this year and BA took a number of their crews.
* TCX is about to enter a merger process (historically this does not create pilot jobs!).
* Flybe are shedding pilots and have their own MPL scheme
* BA mainline have their own cadet scheme for now
* RYR and Cityflyer take from Oxford
* TOM have their own scheme...

The only others in the UK are Jet2 and Aer Lingus. Will they be looking at the middle east again? e.g. second officers for Ethiad.

Cityflyer has sort of taken cadets from CTC but none have started training yet as I understand it. They are in an airline holdpool so that isn't a firm offer.

CTC graduates are still eligible to apply for Ryanair but don't unless they have not been admitted into the hold pool as it involves forking out an additional £35k.

WARNING FOR ALL WHO ARE CONSIDERING TRAINING ORGANISATION LIKE CTC

I work for an Orange company based at LGW. On a dailly basis F/O describe there financial plight while we are flying. I read with horror the lack of understanding from people on this forum. I appreciate the flying schools provide statistics and coloured brochures, thats there job they selling like all business there products.

However the reallity is very different, the debit at the end of all the training including type ratings cost of living etc ranges with each individual. the figures the cadets have given me range between £120,000 to £180,000.
I appreciate there is a big difference but that is not the point. There loan repayment are £1000 / month during the winter they can hardly afford this payment let alone pay for rent, food etc. Many have gone bankrupt, others have to sleep on floors, rely on crew food for eating.

The new contract being offered at the Orange factory will mean they will live in poverty for many years. We have reached the point where this once great industry has now become a profit making scheme for the providers and Airlines at your expence

By joining these schemes you are just contributing to the deteoriating conditions. While people are willing to pay for these schemes companies will continue to reduce what you earn, the objectives of the Airlines is to get the Flight deck crews paying to fly.

You may feel that this does not effect you but it does if you are considering these schemes.

The answere I dont have, however as some one who has had a great career in aviation, the very least I can do is provide another side to this awful unfolding story.

Good luck with your choice.

Well there's a balanced and well thought out post from someone who's not been through the current system.

I hesitate to say it, but if your cadets have £180k training debts then they must have had an awful lot of remedial lessons along the lines!

As stated these are figures given to me from cadets I fly with. That said when you take into consideration living costs etc it does not surprise me.

Stocious,

When you consider the legal costs, loan fees, interest rates and missed payments/reduced repayment periods I think 120-180k sounds about right.

These guys have really been screwed over. It's not right.

The figures I have seen are around £69,000 for the training course (bond) and around £10,000 for a "foundation course." There are other incidentals such as medicals, insurances and course equipment (around £3,000.) What happens at the end of the course then determines any additional "hard" costs. By that I mean it depends on the partner airline and if a placement immediately follows on from the course. Where it does, the additional cost can be as little as nothing (airline pays for type rating and also provides per diem allowances for training.) To close on an additional £10,000 for type rating training with airlines such as yours! These costs are determined by the partner airline rather than the FTO.

That gives a broad costing of £82,000 to £92,000. Then there are the candidates living costs. Accommodation is provided, but transport, food and personal incidentals are not. Allowing for £2000 in capital costs (car share etc.) and £500 a month for living costs over 15 months (if you can't manage on that, try harder!) that comes to a sensible budget of circa £91,500 to £101,500 at the top end!) This is all ab-initio.

I am having trouble seeing where loans of £180,000 come from, unless there was (even in the worst case,) remedial training of over £78,500! It is difficult to imagine such a scenario. Similarly the same sum could involve living costs of over £5,700 a month, which means they would be living to a standard of luxury that a gulf royal prince would be proud of.

Those cadets that I have discussed such things with, didn't have to pay any type rating costs on joining their airline (obviously not your company,) and those with loans seem to have them in the 70-85K range.


I am not suggesting that these sums of money are anything less than eye watering, and should definetely be regarded as "mortgage levels of debt" without an asset to mitigate the borrowing. The risks associated with the assumption of this level is debt should be considered very carefully and always with a backup plan. However, simply throwing unrealistic numbers into the fray undermines your argument.

Bealzebub

You worry me greatly, looking briefly through the comments on this issue, whenever there is a negitive comment against the training providers, you seem to try and justify there sytem. Who do you work for!!!!!

I listen to these to the plight of the F/O on a daily basis, taking crew sandwiches so they can eat, sleeping on friends floors, I have sent seveal home because the are too Ill to operate yet they still come in because they need the money. Dont play games with a few numbers to justify your cause.

I am not sure why I should worry you? If you have actually looked back through the posts you would be able to answer all of your own questions. I work for a partner airline.

The figures you were throwing out are simply unrealistic and I suspect you already know that. I am attempting to provide a degree of accurate information for people to use as a tool for their own use, rather than specious and unqualified comment.

I wasn't aware that I had "a cause." Are you suggesting these figures are wrong or in someway "a game"?

I would suggest then that the problem is with your company rather than the training provider. Our cadets do eat crew meals (in much the same ratio as anybody else seems to.) Seem to have comfortable and adequate living arrangements, (nobody has suggested otherwise for the last 15 years.) I have never sent anybody home. If they are sick they report sick. Apart from a relatively small amount of flight related pay, they would still receive their salary or (during the placement period) their bond repayments. If what you say is accurate, then it wouldn't be the intention of the FTO but rather the terms and conditions imposed by your employer. On that subject, I would defer to people with far greater insight. However, your company has been dominant in providing placement opportunities for graduates throughout a period of severe recession. I have said it before, but will say it again, they were pretty much the only game in town, and clearly used their advantage in this marketplace to set the terms and conditions that they chose to offer.

Can I take that to mean, you come on here suggesting to young people, most of whom starry-eyed and no real clue about life - let alone finances! -, to take out a loan, the servicing of which will last them ten to twenty years (if things go well!), in dire times, with no shortterm nor midterm prospect of market improvement, only to be shafted by being forced into accepting a contract at the end of it, which will eventually see them crash for the night at their friends's pads, or parking lot, and live on a wonderful, healthy diet of crew sandwiches...?!

You kiddin' right?

I can't help wondering why most of the other guys here, who work with those people every day, don't stop warning against the whole thing, while you never miss a chance to defend the program... And this in a well-structured, eloquent fashion.

Not getting a piece of the cake, too, are you?

I have no idea what you "can take that to mean." I cannot recall ever advising somebody to take out loans that they cannot afford. Perhaps you can run a search through my posts and attempt to point out where I ever have?

I have always attempted to give an honest, balanced and realistic appraisal of the market and how it has both evolved and what future direction it is likely to take. I don't think I pull my punches, or sugarcoat the reality in any way.

I talk about what I know about. If you don't like it, then you don't like it. If you disagree then fine. These programmes are an evolution of similar programmes that have been in existence for decades. The financing and composition of them has also evolved over the same period. For some people coming to these forums, they want information based on what is happening in the real world, not necessarily someones informed or ill informed opinion.

I see people who have used these courses to their advantage and betterment and it is entirely right to point that out. That there are enormous risks and pitfalls as well as some extremely poor companies out there, is something that I try and point out as often as possible and within the context of the particular reply. Nevertheless there are people and companies who utilise these programmes to good effect and with good results. They are undoubtably the lucky ones, in this enormous "pyramid of shattered dreams," but the reality is that they exist. I have given examples of where this has been the case and continues to be the case.

For people realistically looking for a fast track career with a couple of hundred hours (as so many are here,) the options are extremely limited. They have always been extremely limited. However there are options out there for the few who might qualify for them by virtue of ability, financial resource, and luck.

If a 20 year old wannabe asked me privately what I thought was the best way of getting an airline career these days was, I would tell them the same as I post on here. That is my experience of the market in the last 15 years. I have seen many people succesfully come through these programmes. That the path to a career in aviation is littered with bodies, is something that I have repeated time and time again, so I don't think I do anything to encourage or paint an unrealistic picture of the landscape.

So no, I am not kidding, and no I don't "get a piece of the cake" either. But I do work in a company where over a quarter of the pilot workforce are now graduates of these programmes and a company that continues to recruit from all of the traditional sources in roughly equal measure. I am not a graduate of this type of training, but I might be if I could turn the clock back 35 years. Not one penny of my annual income is dependent on these programmes or the FTO's involved in conducting them, nor is it ever likely to be.

Where you have good partners the programmes work well. Much of the sensible criticism being levelled, is about the partner airlines more than it is the programmes, the FTO's, or the young candidates. Where this combination exists, it shouldn't be too difficult to understand why a well structured cadet programme as part of a balanced recruitment drive is well defended. I make no apologies for that. For those companies where volume has perhaps smothered most of the vestiges of quality and investment, it isn't difficult to also see the usual daily rants (which may well be justified) emerging, blaming everyone and everything for their woes. Of course that is why you read so much of what you do read. It certainly isn't too hard to figure out.

As you are aware I work for the Orange brigade. I am therefore in a very good position to say what happens on the coal face. It is an utter discrace how these men and woman are treated just because they are trying to follow there dream, which turns into a nightmare.

I will let the jury decide who's best interest you have at heart.

I was recently asked by a friend to go to a school and do a presentation on becoming a pilot something I have done when my children were younger,i had to refuse. How can you promote exploitation. I am ashamed of what has become of our industry.

I work in an industry that has evolved, and people still want to become a part of it. I have worked in it for 37 years. I see a part of my role as mentoring, supporting and teaching those people coming into the industry in order that they can take the bits they want to enable them to come the sort of pilots, and indeed people, that they want to be. I take some pride in that, and am not ashamed at all. Likewise, and whatever its faults may be, I also take pride in the job I do and with the employer I work for. Neither they nor I are perfect by a long chalk, but in recognising that fact we still try to be the best we can be. I really do believe that as a company (of which I am one very small cog) we treat people well, and we do endeavour to provide a positive and happy environment for people to work in, but more relevant to this discussion, to develop, grow and prosper in.

Over the best part of the last two decades, I have seen many, many young people come into this industry through this route, and achieve those qualities and fulfilled ambitions. Of those that I have worked with, I cannot once ever say that the way we treated them was a disgrace. It wasn't! Moreover since the vast majority are still working for us, some in quite senior positions, clearly they didn't think so either. Today in a fiercely cut-throat and competitive marketplace, we still pay for type ratings and pay training expenses to our cadets. We do, wherever possible, offer full time contracts after the short 6 month placement periods to our cadets. We don't exploit anybody. Further still, as part of a balanced recruitment programme, we place due weight on ex-cadet pilots from other employers (such as yours,) as a desirable source of our "experienced pilot" intake.

I wouldn't have any problem giving a school presentation on "becoming a pilot" simply because I would give an honest and balanced presentation. Perhaps your personal angst should be focused closer to home, rather than young people or the world in general. Should that focus be successful, there would be even more good opportunities for the best people striving to enter this profession.

So when you say.......Then that is fine by me. I will continue to help people succeed. and encourage them to achieve that success. I will warn people of the pitfalls and the realities. I will continue to highlight the enormous attrition rate that is prevalent in this career path. I am guilty of all those things and will continue to be so. Besides my salary and pension I don't have any other source of income, so that won't really be for your "jury" to decide.

I live in the real world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh:

If the cadet went to university first, you can easily add another 20-30K to the personal total debt figure as opposed to just flight training debt. I guess car loans, credit cards, etc. Could add another 20K.

And interest on the loan payment whilst in training? What rate are these guys paying? Even at low loan interest rates of 3%, thats another 6k of debt on top for two years before re-payment has even started.

I can confirm that they do indeed use Pilapt. I think the pass mark is 6/10 average as there were people on my course with that score. Though, good luck getting there with the weather like this in the CI :P

Bealzebub, How about you get your facts straight before you post with this self appointed authority that you seem to think you have? I am sorry to come across strongly but I'm starting to find your posting either deluded, uninformed or perhaps biased for some reason:confused:

Let us take your following post apart, piece by piece.

Using the following link (which is all you'd needed to have done to avoid posting rubbish):

http://www.ctcwings.com/uploads/CTC_...flet_Oct12.pdf

Wings Cadets pay:

£69000 for course fees plus another 33000NZD for the foundation course - that's £18300 at current exchange rates. That's already £87300.

On top we have:

i'd estimate these at about £1000 for 'fees', £200 for an insurance and how much for food and subsistence would you say? Let's be reasonable to you and set it low - during my time I needed about £100 a week at good exchange rates . This is for food, petrol, going out with everyone, calling home, internet etc. So over a 14 month minimum course (ours took a considerable amount longer) that's £6000.

So we're at £95000 already......before interest is added on. Let's say you were offered 3 % APR over 7 years - the total amount repayable will be £116838.

This is using the following calculator:

Compound Interest Calculator

Then CTC ask people to pay for a type rating on top with most airlines apart from your very fine, fair and reasonable establishment - another £12000 is it now?

So in fact your debt is £107000 or with that interest rate is £131500. Now throw in some delayed payments because you're only on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. And then throw in another 6 months delayed payments because there wasn't a type rating available. You're easily well over £140000 for the CTC scheme. On the Oxford/ Parc scheme with a £35000 TR, housing and a more expensive course you're well over £180000.

And that interest calculator considers that you'll repay immediately from taking the loan - not 14,18 or 24 months down the line. You're easily looking at £1800 a month repayments over a 7 year time period. That's £28000 a year you need to earn to service the loan.

Well that was fairly rude. Bealzebub contributes useful stuff to this thread which myself and many others greatly appreciated and helped me decide whether or not to bite the bullet or not..

He (or she) has stated before that he has no connection to CTC Aviation other than to have flown with CTC Graduates in airline cadetship positions. Anything he has said was information that had been passed on to him either secondhand or perhaps was read some time ago. I never remember seeing him claim to be an authority but I suppose that assumption was made because he has contributed a lot. There are very few graduates with placements that post on this section of pprune so any info from the other side had always been greatly appreciated.

The figures he quotes were accurate at the time I started training and had been for some time, they had only recently changed. I believe an increase in late 2011 to 21000 NZD for the foundation course and then the recent increase (I don't know when). Any cadet that would have graduated up until now would have paid the old prices. Your post talks about the debt costs were you to take out a loan. Nobody is forcing you to borrow money to take this course, that is up to the individuals circumstances. Different loans may have different rates and the figures given were the basic cost of the course. I am not entirely sure but I think the majority on the course don't go through BBVA and certainly not for the total course cost. Any personal savings would seriously reduce the total debt accrued.

To update your figures, insurance is around £1000 for 28 months or until type rating is complete (and a £50 supplement if you want to go skiing in New Zealand:*). The course isn't going to happen in 14 months, 18 is typical but I hear that recent groups are facing delays due to various reasons. I was told to set aside 10k for living costs to cover the duration.

As I understand, the only airline that asks for a contribution to the type rating is Easyjet/Flexicrew which isn't most of the partner airlines (albeit the majority of cadets will end up taking this route). Type ratings cost money and to cover it, you will be bonded to the airline for a number of years. The amount owed for the type rating will slowly reduce over that period. It isn't money that you will have to borrow up front unless you go to Ryanair etc. Therefore you wont be making loan repayments as such or accruing interest. The figures I saw (some time ago) suggested that between month 18-24, based on an 80k loan you would repay ~700 a month and then ~1000 a month from months 24-84 or whatever the loan period was.

I think the bit you missed was Look at that sentence carefully. Did you perhaps read it as I think the problem here is that people have read so much negative stuff that they can't believe anyone with anything positive to say. There are a few that have graduated recently into their dream jobs with a very respectable airline after a short wait in the hold pool. That's not to say it will continue - although I hope it will.

Sure, lets do that. Firstly lets start by putting your haughty indignation back into your pocket. I don't have an authority simply the numbers. They are neither deluded, uninformed or biased. They are representative of cadets that have come online (with us) in the last 12 months. Although the costs may well have increased recently (they usually do,) the reply was given in response to a comment about debts of £180,000 or some such figure, that was clearly exaggerated.

Anyway back to your dissection...

The cadets coming through to us have paid around $19,000 for their foundation courses at rates ranging from £1= NZ$1.85 to around $2.07. I am happy to accept you doing the maths, but my figure of £10,000 seemed quite reasonable. No doubt the next set of graduates will find their total figures higher, but again if you follow the thread you will see that we were discussing the costs of those who have recently graduated. A point you seemed to have missed?


I gave a figure of:
That is £12,500 or more than double your figure of £6,000.


My figures which again were for recently placed graduates (on lower foundation course costs) were at £91,500 at this point. Even allowing for your misunderstanding of the contextual timeline of the posting it still isn't too far adrift at around £3,500 is it?

Your figure concerning interest is about right. That is £259 a month or so for the period of the loan assuming that length of loan and a constant interest rate.

I am sure it varies, but as you point out the response referred to my "very fine, fair and reasonable establishment" so the challenge is redundant.


No it is not a fact. Your debt may well be this figure, but I stand by the figures that I gave for all the reasons that I gave. Our cadets are not on £1200 a month for the first 8 months. They receive this sum by way of a subsistance from their own bonds to APL for this period. In addition they receive training allowances, flight pay, sector pay and any other duty allowances. They also receive their type ratings on a reducing bond basis. Were they not to be offered employment contracts at the conclusion of their placements these costs would be written off! Zilch.

Then there are the CTC loan repayment schemes that we have in place with HMRC that enable the loan repayments to be deducted from income tax calculation save for a small witholding tax element based on the capital/interest elements of the loan. I confess that I omitted this enhancement from my original reply, whereby the taxman treats your loan repayments in a favourable manner, however given your indignation and obvious irritation at my "delusion, bias and uninformed posting" it probably would have done nothing to help your case. However......
Our cadets were taking home around £2500+ per month during their placements. Within a year of commencing employment contracts, they are grossing (subject to fleet and base) around £60,000+ per annum. This is also subject to annual increments for a period of 21 years. Using your figure of £28,000 p.a to service the loan, our cadets would actually repay their entire loan in less than 5 years, thereby reducing the total interest to about £7600. As the bulk of the loan would be set off for tax calculations, that would leave them around £32,000 a year gross. A liveable sum? Yes, I would have thought so, with a big bonus 5 year later when the loan repayments end and they are 5 increments up the scale and also looking at command possibilities at another 50% salary lift.

So when you say:
I trust you now understand how flawed your dissection was. It always helps to read the post, understand the context, and argue the actual presentation rather than what you you want it to be. Particularly so when you have had a month to consider the reply.

The mathematics in your post don't warrant any other reply than you're wrong and they don't work for someone with a loan. I don't know about the BBVA loan as mine is with HSBC. I'm sure if you've borrowed the money from a family member the financial side is far less relevant, worrying and inflexible. The interest on the bank loans IS very much part of the cost for those that have them.

Listen, you are possibly still in the honeymoon period/ eternally grateful to bealzebub for giving you a job at MON. That is completely understandable - the job is a pleasure and MON have been extremely fair in their recruitment policy - I'm not knocking them. What's more if you do not need/ did not need to borrow the money from the bank then you're in a fortunate position that many of my era were not in - we wouldn't possibly begrudge you but appreciate the load and real cost to us - we probably make up a bulk of the moaners!

As for being rude - I did apologise at the start if I was being strong - I was more trying to be direct. I find his posts have a touch of tunnel vision about them (edit to say that in my opinion you proved my point with your last post). Please don't take offence.

The figures I have quoted give a good idea of the real cost and explain to bealzebub how it's possible some are in debt to the tune if £180k. He rather abruptly shot someone down for saying such a thing.

I've said my piece - sorry for bring perhaps a bit abrasive, I'm glad you're happy with your lot.

P.S. My foundation course cost just under £3000. That's inflation!:}