Working in India
 

Kingfisher: Co-Pilots / Trainee Co-Pilots:

ATR 42/72

Current Medical CPL, FRTO, COP/RTR and IR with multi engine and minimum of 25 hrs on multi-engine aircraft. (10 hrs could be completed on an approved multi – engine simulator). Pilots with prior flying experience on multi engine aircraft preferred.

From their website, at last, breath of fresh air, not outrageous demands for that first jet job. Has anyone looked into it? I'm guessing the low hours totals are maybe to get Indian nationals into the aircraft opposed to foreigners?

The COP/RTR are Certificate of Proficiency/Radio Telephony something (having 14 JAA ATPL's done may supersede this requirement, anyone with any experience?)

Worth a debate anyway

You checked out the news section?? The boss in white with all those Indian beauties surrounding him...looks very interesting!!

http://www.businesswireindia.com/att..._Ministers.JPG

And if you are not Indian then how do you intend to get a work permit ahead of all the Indian wannabees?

That is something I haven't looked into, is there a surplus of qualified pilots in Inidia like in the US and UK? Maybe that may influence their recruitment plus also the low hours requirement.

Do you have any experience of the Indian air industry or visa situation? Talk about shooting the messenger.

hello all

As per Indian law no foreign f/os are allowed in India.the shortage is only for capt and TRE and TRI.The requirement u see on the ad is only for Indian nationals not for low hour foreigners.Oh by the way its raining new carriers in India god only knows when the bubble is going to burst.Similar thing happened in 93 and only 2 airlines survived(Jet airways and Sahara) rest all folded up very quickly.

No foreign F/O's allowed in India!
 

A nice piece of democratic legislation there.

This means effectively single-pilot ops for many A320 flights, with the local Captains being new to the A320 in many instances. Crikey!
Indian airspace is chaotic (antiquated HF comms, overcrowded VHF, ill-equipped ATC) and weather conditions can be very tricky. To say nothing about the state of the airports themselves.

Think I'll take the railway, myself.

(Not a pop at the Indian people, by the way. Absolutely charming folk...but their aviation world is seriously flawed and needs overhauling quickly and thoroughly, before too many "events" occur)

This isn't really the place to debate the democratic bona fides of the Indian government. For good or bad, their rules are currently that only a few aviation jobs are open to (experienced) foreigners. Funnily enough, the EU and the US, with vastly larger aviation industries, also make it difficult (though not totally impossible) for non-nationals to enter the jobs market. India is entitled to set whatever restrictions she wishes. Live with it.

Scroggs

The Indian government are as they are because that is how the British taught them to be 50-60 years ago, OK they're still living by a text book that may be 50-60 years out of date but stiff upper lip and all that.

A Captain requires 100 sectors of line training in India thus any need for F/O's is put on the back burners, for several months both seats will be occupied by Captains!

Re: Our prjudice to european pilots etc...
 

Scroggs,

Are you basing that on written terms and conditions or are you just guessing, in a sort of retaliation at the way they treat us. Surely some written contractual evidence should be used when making such a bold claim???

What are you talking about? EU residence and employment legislation is not in some contract, it is law. All countries apply some restrictions to who can and cannot live and work in their territories. Some places are more welcoming than others if they need skilled foreign labour (the Middle East, Africa, some parts of Asia), but the more developed an economy is, the less they need people from outside their country taking their jobs.

Scroggs

Every country has it rights to who it may offer foreign work permits to and who it may not.

There is enough of a problem with Indian call centres taking over what were previously UK/EU jobs of people answering telephones, you guys would shout from the rooftops if the Indians came to take over the pilot jobs also.

So what right do UK/EU pilots have to go and take the jobs of young Indian wannabee pilots? None whatsoever!

Hello!
I've read in the last Orient Aviation Mag that according to Indian laws, it is compelled to have at least one Indian flight crew in the cockpit.
I understand: either Indian F/O and foreign Capt or foreign F/O and Indian Capt. This is different from no foreign F/O allowed.
Do you know which version is true? :confused:

Does the Indian National rule apply to the SFO positions with higher requirements or only the FO. Cannot believe there are that many nationals sitting around with the SFO requirements under their belts? or perhaps there is.

Hello!
I've read in the last Orient Aviation Mag that according to Indian laws, it is compelled to have at least one Indian flight crew in the cockpit.
I understand: either Indian F/O and foreign Capt or foreign F/O and Indian Capt. This is different from no foreign F/O allowed.
Do you know which version is true?


No Foreign FOs...at all.
One pilot must be Indian; could be Capt or TRI / TRE. for eg if TRI is foreign then the Capt must be Indian and vise versa

Only type rated with 500hrs as PIC & TRI; TRE can get jobs in India.

Indian govt keeps the right to place its own citizens as FO before it allows intl' FOs to take local jobs.
Kingfisher is trying to change ths law..it will never happen.

If an Indian applied to LH he would not get a job, same goes for the local German kid who applies to Jet airways/ Kingfisher etc ect

Ok,but I read on some website that India will need about 5000 pilots until 2009. and their flight schools have capacity of producing only about 100 new pilots a year.

Then there's a great opportunity for the flying training industry in India!

India operates one of the world's largest air forces, which retires several hundred highly-qualified pilots every year. They are quite likely to form the vast bulk of India's new commercial pilots, and the nascent flying training industry will provide most of the rest. A few experienced TRI/TREs from outside the country will pass on their expertise to the new generation of Indian trainers and, in a relatively short time, India is likely to be self-sufficient in commercial pilots again.

Despite some of the preconceptions at work here, India has quite a well-developed and sophisticated economy which is able to respond to industrial developments quite rapidly - including those in aviation. The commercial aviation sector in India is tiny compared to the size of the country, and its likely expansion rate will probably be more or less within the capacity of the associated (and proportionately expanding) training infrastructure. Where there are imbalances, India will (as have many other countries) import the highest-qualified, most experienced help it can get. These highly-experienced individuals will add value by training many Indian nationals to enter or progress within the industry. There is little point in India taking on foreign junior FOs who do little more than occupy a seat that could be taken by an Indian, and effectively remove money from their economy.

Don't get distracted by the huge poverty that is the traditional view of India; that certainly exists, but there is a vast, modern economy developing within the country that neither needs nor wants help from other nations.

Scroggs

Oh dear. :hmm:

You haven't checked your facts at all, have you? :rolleyes:

Scroggs

Scroggs has summed it up pretty well !

The indian aviation industry still needs some channelising and systematic planning. The DGCA FID are trying their best to provide it.

Also there have been a few major incidents involving expat captains which has caused a lot of embarrassment to the companies which hired them and in one case a company has been sold.

60 to 70% of Kingfisher is ex Air Force all doing well with little or no problems. One of the main reasons Indian F/Os are taken is they are much cheaper than expats. Also an Indian F/O is more used to the Indian environment which will take some getting used to for an expat.

For the foreseeable future I doubt if any policy change will happen.

Is one to take from all this that India has an ample and adequate supply of FOs to meet the needs of the growing airline industry there and the only need is for experienced captains ?

I can see why the country wants their own citizens to gain experience as quickly as possible and fill the captain spots. But with the airline industry being an economic entity, allowing airplanes to go unflown for lack of pilots would compel companies to take expat FOs if that's what it took to make the system work.

Just curious...

Look, there just isn't going to be a market for expat FOs in India! There is in China, the Middle East, and a few other places, but most countries want to be able to provide for their own needs and will work very hard to do so - it's not easy to tell your countrymen that some of their highest-paying jobs are going to foreigners who otherwise have no right of residence or employment!

Scroggs

The same can be said in every country on the planet....yet....

And your point is what exactly? The USA and the EU are two of the most protected industrial economies in the world. We apply stringent restrictions on who can work and live in our countries. Other countries are entitled to do the same. Fortunately many don't, or those British, European and American pilots that work in many, many countries around the world would all have to go home.

Scroggs

Scoggs has it spot on. There is a growing middle class in India, and within the next 5-10 years, it is going to feed strong growth in Indian aviation. The vast middle classes are highly educated and will work for fraction of the cost of a similarly educated individual in the developed western world. However, costs are rising and salaries increasing. My company gives salary increases to our Indian employees at not less than 20% per year. This is unsustainable.

If the bubble does burst, I think you'll find more Indian pilots moving to the traditional stamping grounds of expat pilots in the Middle East and Asia-Pacific. Inevitably, some will come to Europe too. Even if the bubble doesn't burst, young f/o' will quickly work out there's better money to be made at SIA & EK. All in all, things should get even tougher for wannabes...:sad:

...yet countries continue to do what they have to do to keep the airplanes moving inspite of how hard it is to give away good jobs to "outsiders"; that all.

If India doesn't have to hire expat FOs, so be it. I would guess that expats have been considered a necessary evil in the eyes of locals as long as countries have been doing things which required people their own country couldn't produce fast enough.

If India can get by entirely own their own people, more power to them. But, ultimately I'd place my bets on the motivation of the Almighty Dollar having the final word. When/if India ( or any other country ) couldn't get the job done with local talent, I rather doubt hurt feelings would count for much.

Not picking a fight...just thinking out loud. Just an interesting subject...

The aviation industry in India is tiny. I mean by that that, compared to the population, it is almost non-existent. There are probably more airliners in Luxembourg than there are in India! The infrastructure just isn't there to support that rapid an expansion that they'll run out of people. With a population four times that of the USA, believe me they have plenty of people! Only a very few need to be qualified to fly aeroplanes, and it looks likely that they can generate the majority of those themselves - and they can send potential pilots to schools in other countries, who will be only too willing to provide the training India requires.

I don't think there will ever be a large market for expat pilots in India.

Scroggs

I think the point that Scroggs, and indeed I, has tried to make is that unless one is an Indian national one hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of getting a RHS job in India.

Perhaps Scroggs may back me up on this but if the subject matter is to turn to an Indian flight safety issue then perhaps it belongs in a different forum to this one.

There is a distinct smell of sour grapes in the air!

...not in the least...

RHS will forever remain closed to expats=sour grapes or Indian pickles.

There are close to 500 Indian kids right now in USA & Aus comepleting their CPLs, both the countires have relaxed the visa rules looking at the huge potencial for local FTOs.

Scroggs, you seem to have put a lot of research into this; you have more info on hand than most CEOs running the airlines in India...

Phileas Fogg, agree Flt safety will an issue as low time FO and low time Capts will be flying in some kick azz Indian monsoon in the next few mths, most new airlines this will be real test of their safety detps.

bafanguy, watch this space ..how fast India becomes a full local crew...you will be shocked...:ok:

There are rules preventing less than 500 hours total on type experience in the cockpit.

New abinitio F/Os have to go thru approx 50 sectors LOFT before release.

Some on this thread think they "invented the wheel" and the indian aviators were born yesterday!

Please get rid of that attitude if you ever want to fly an Indian carrier. Thick heads is something not wanted in the cockpit environment.

Simple advice - take it or leave it.....

Not really, but I do fly into India occasionally (Delhi and Mumbai), I watch what's said within Pprune, in Flight magazine and elsewhere, and I have a couple of contacts within the Indian industry. Just reading the News part of Pprune or Flight would give anyone enough information to understand that India will not be an open market for pilots. It's hardly an industrial secret!

It is painfully obvious sometimes that some wannabes only ever look within the Wannabes section of Pprune for their aviation information, and ignore the vast amount of knowledge available elsewhere in this site - not to mention other sources. Only yesterday within this forum, one of your number commented that he failed an interview because his knowledge of the industry (and even his potential employer) was inadequate. There is no excuse for this; information is very easy to come by. If you are adequately informed you will find it much easier to make sensible judgements of where to concentrate your energies when looking for a job - and to have the knowledge to impress your target employers.

I don't know :hmm:. You can take the horse to water....;)

Scroggs

Please get rid of that attitude if you ever want to fly an Indian carrier. Thick heads is something not wanted in the cockpit environment.:ok:

well said ! this goes for any carrier if you want to work as an expat in some one else's country.

scoggs, what a fresh approach..and then there are some guys to who come to India on ID tickets without a visa and claim their UK/USA citizenship give them the right to do so....

in short use the internet for research and not for free porn !

As it should be. It's their party so THEY get to say who is invited. No reasonable person could hold any attitude of "entitlement" to a job in someone else's country...period...end of discussion.

For the entire 35 years I spent in domestic US airline flying, there was talk about the looming "pilot shortage" here; what a joke !!

I just think it's interesting to see how countries like China and India will handle what appears to be a legitimate need for more pilots than they have available to support their proposed operations. They may not be able to produce "experienced" pilots as fast as they need them not matter how many candidates they send to flight schools.

It'll be fun to watch.

It's quite laughable the many international airline Captains and wannabee international airline pilots/Captains haven't got a clue regarding immigration issues and what happens when they have a passenger immigration issue on board?

So many Americans, let's say, who flew in/out of Heathrow for Delta for 15 years believe they have EU rights because, in their opinion, they have already worked in the EU and likewise so many nationalities, without so much as a type rating nor 500 hours on type, apply for jobs in such countries as India. Don't they realise that the airline has to justify their qualification(s) on type to receive their work visa and licence validation etc. for that particular position and if one ain't got the qualification(s) then one ain't going to get the work permit, the validation nor the job!

China's problem is more pressing than India's. China has quite a well-developed and sophisticated internal airline system with all the associated infrastructure. The country is embracing capitalism rapidly (it was always a trade-based society, even in Communist years), and its economy is expanding at a tremendous rate. With several very large commercial centres up and down the Eastern and Southern coasts of the country, there is already a pent-up demand for air travel - it needs little extra encouragement. China has decided to order a lot of aircraft for delivery in the near future, and it can't crew them from its own resources as things stand. China also has a reasonably well-developed relationship with expatriate expertise in a number of fields, and is quite comfortable with the use of expat pilots. Of course, the lack of a democratic government and thus any risk to politicians in upsetting the populace may play a part here..!

The nature of Chinese and Indian politics and commerce are quite different, and the actions of one can't be easily read across to the other. China will accept expat pilots - at least for the forseeable future - India will not.

Scroggs

A patently absurd statement....

And as for the "immigration" issues, if people aren't familiar with them it's because they didn't NEED to be familiar with them. But, circumstances change.

When they have a need, I guess they'll learn them....just like YOU did when you found the need.

I started this thread to enquire as to if it was viable for me to pursue this Kingfisher vibe, the concensus seems to be no. Fair enough.

I'd also add that any pilot doing training in another part of the world (ie. Me UK citizen - training in the US) has probably delt with embassies and also looked into what their options are to stay and earn in that country unless they have a deep rooted hatred for that country (here its generally the Italians who can't wait to get back to Europe).

How do find out? . . . as Bafanguy correctly pointed out we look into when we stumble across it in our day to day lives. How much for a kilo of Mongolian Yaks Cheese? I dunno, but if I was going to open a pizza restaurant in downtown Ulaan Bator then you can bet your little behind I'd be up to speed.

Surely the whole point of PPRuNe is that the uneducated masses are enlightened by the few in the know already and they aren't castigated for doing so.

As for questioning Scroggs, to be honest the guy reads almost every post on here, over the past few years I bet he's seen every rumour/opportunity/fact/figure/lie and gleened the relevant info (despite all the bollocks and threads decending into name calling and personal vendettas around the 6 post mark). If he isn't in a position to say what HE thinks based on that, then who the hell is!

What I find laughable is how many people forget this and have a go.

By no means is this a suck up session to a moderator, I don't always agree with everything he says. However if I was on Who Wants to be a Millionaire? and Chris Tarrant asked 'Whats the chances of getting a F/O job in India?' I know who I'd use as my 'phone a friend'.

Then why do I receive umpteen FAA/N. American applications weekly, if not daily, for JAR licensed EU positions?

Actions speak louder than words as they say!

Well, I certainly cannot account for people's inability to read a job posting if the license requirements were clearly stated.

However, these applications are by no means an indication of an attitude of entitlement to the job or the right work work in your country on the part of the applicants.

The incredible absurdity of your original statement regarding American pilots considering flying into an English airport as having "...UE rights..." stands firm on its own lack of merit.

Just throw away those applications that don't fit your requirements.

Bafanguy,
Written applications were/are just part of it, once EST reaches 0900 the phone starts ringing, one asks specific questions as to does one have a JAR license to which a regular reply will be 'sure, I've got an ATPL' and when one asks regarding EU rights a regular answer will be regarding Delta Airlines for 15 years or similar.

I don't imagine these things, I talk to these people (I was about to call them something else) on a daily or weekly basis, many haven't got a clue regarding EU rights and that is fact.

Should you continue to disbelieve me then by all means post an EU/JAR job ad on climbto350.com and ask that they specify how they have EU rights when applying, I get the impression that you'll receive one hell of a shock.

P.S. You'll have to refer to it as European Union in your ad though because many don't understand what EU means!

Kingfisher F/O thread + tangent = Start a new thread!