stop encouraging... (merged with 'Is there any hope')
 

why airlines ask pilots to pass psy tests when they are fully qualified.
this is ridiculous...
if a pilot fails some psy tests, why the caa let him fly?
is it a question to select( and a way to make some easy €€€€ ;) )?
so all these psy working at xxx airline have a job and pilots are the cows...

Not at all - it can effectively determine whether one is or is not training risk, their receptiveness to working in a multi-crew environment, and their ability to adapt to change and manage the pressure.

The fATPL may be a licence to fly, but it is not a ticket to work within any environment in the industry...

Perhaps this reinforces the point that self-selection is - perhaps - unwise, and that one should submit oneself to selection tests prior to commencing training to determine suitability.

wot d u mean by a psy test? personality? If so then such tests are easy to blag. anyone with half a brain can come across as a team player/ highly motivated/ able to adapt to change if they want. I ve taken such things before, and its easy to guess the answers they want to hear.

psy tests
 

From my understanding, the psychological tests used in pilot selection are not a pass/fail type of deal, but and aid to the recruitment people in the selection of suitable candidates. When they have the results of the psychological test, they can compare them with the impression the candidate left at the interview stage and the answers given. If there is a discrepancy between the psychological report and the answers given in the interview, it is a possible indicator that the candidate was lying in either the test, the interview or both.

As far as the point that if a pilot is qualified, he is good enough, from my experience this is probably not true. I have met many people who either hold or are capable of holding an ATPL, but I would not personally want to spend 12 hours on a flight deck with them. People who, for one reason or another would not fit in to a particular airline have a negative impact on all those who they work with, and as such when recruiting, an airline will try as best as possible to select the candidate who will fit in. The psychological test can be an integral part of this selection.

First of all, an airline has to assess the abilities of a candidate regarding a position.
For us the required qualities are obvious. By going through psychological questionnaire, the psy get a first picture.
The psychotechnics test are also an excellent clue to figure out the learning abilities of a wannabee. In our modern world where competition prevails, where fuel cost is increasing day by day, airlines do not want to spend extra money on training so they want to mesure how fast a candidate can learn, adapt himself to new and unexpected situation: a sim check shows the flying skills and level of a pilot but does not show how long it took him to reach this level!
Team work is essential in our job: between cockpit crew, cabin crew, ground staff , ATC, management, pax..etc Group exercices are made for this purpose:
How an individual interacts with others while dealing with problems solving, enigmas etc... It is a very cheap way for airline selection (much cheaper than sim!!) and a most companies have integrated the group exercise as a part of their selection for management positions (we are managers!).
At last but not least, an individual meeting with the psy is part of some airline interview: Does the candidate fit the position, what is is motivation, does he know the airline and company he is applying for, what is his background, studies...etc

You must not see the whole process as a way to sack or eliminate you!!
If a company is recruiting, that means that they need you!!
Take this as a way to show your motivation, your abilities, your will to join the airline, to be a plus and of course your love of flying.....:ok:

Good luck

what about a captain at easyjet applying at BA and who has to pass some tests(again).
if he is not accepted, does it mean easyjet have not "so good "pilots?.
and about a pilot being accepted at BA and not at ryanair?

and what about all these psy tests you can get online and train your self?

I think the best is to be an average person with average score in everything, but what about a bad day, you score low because you didnt slept the night before?

do you know pilots being refused after passing these tests, and why?

hedges81 is right,i got some questions, same like 15 years ago, but this time I didnt fall in the catch!
you can answer in a way to make the company happy even if you disagree.

"do you have problem to fly with women", the answer is simple, but what about if you disagree really to fly with a woman.?
"if you have to start again, what would you do": answer is :learn to fly abd become a pilot. they want see how motivated you are. airlines want take high motivated people.not the one who wanted be a doctor or policeman.

that s just some exemples...

stop encouraging...
 

What the hell happened with this industry?Why is every airline asking for a TR and experience?Ok,you can get a TR,but how the **** am I gonna get experience if no airline will employ me without experience?

When I remember that my father got a job when he entered the flight school,all I feel is I wanna cry....:mad:

Will it change?I know no one can say it for sure,but please guys,give me some hopeeeee!!!!!

you know, I talked recently with a retired captain. he told me the situation is crazy and he was sorry for us.
this guy, paid for his license(cpl,IR ), then got a job in a major.that was 50 years ago...

this planet is changing(not in good, in bad), the poors are poorer and richs richer.
we are just more humans on this planet(6.5 billiard), and we count to much on petrol.
we have now to take care of these poor countries who do not have fuel, and for this we have increased taxes.
And more we have to pay taxe, less rich we become(poorer we become, we are already poor),...
same problem for the immigration, retirement, social healthcare,...it is simply a slowly degradation of this planet and the airline industry is the first area to be affected....

since I know aviation, every year it is more expensive!
in 2020, we will have 10 workers for 8 retired!

we could reverse the situation, by bringing work in these poor countries, they need water and road.it take only 10 years to create a prospective country with even some airlines, but are we ready for it?are the politicians and the industry ready?

(and to all of you, please stop to encourage people to start flying, you can not even get a job!)

this is a general answer to your question, sorry for my bad english.

stop encouraging...
 

Please, would you stop encouraging young people to become a pilot, when you can not get a flying job yourself.Look at the number of unemployed pilots, do you think it is a good time to screw more people by giving them fake hopes...?

what kind of person are you?
if I had kids, I would never authorize them to try to be a pilot, only a PP.

why do you do that?

oh dear oh dear.... where to start???

I dont really know to whom your post is addressed, as far as I am aware this forum is for people looking for advice, and to some degree encouragement. By encouraging the younger generation to persevere in achieving thier dreams we are not putting others at a disadvantage, we each succeed, and indeed fail on our own merits alone.

The reason there is a surplus of pilots is because it appears from the outside to be a tremendously desirable job!!!! not because people on this forum are encouraging them, the fact that someone makes thier way to this forum would normally indicate that they are doing thier research to decide whether or not thier career decision is a viable reality.

To be perfectly honest I wouldnt base a decision solely on what participants to this forum suggest, this is but one of many sources which may be perused in order to reach a well informed decision...

Tacho

A320Rider,

Winding the threads tight again are we?????

:rolleyes: :zzz: :rolleyes: :zzz: :E

Just a quick question A320rider - I was under the impression that you and spaceman1000 where the same person - who therefore had a couple of jet hours or heavy TP experience - so instead of moaning all the time how about you get out of that chair your sitting in or point your browser away fromm PPrune and look at some jobs....or is it because your including your PPrune username on your CV that you haven't got a job? :confused:
Be positive and upbeat and keep working at it and I'm sure we'll all succeed.
Why do we encourage others? Because its all about that one moment when your flying and you look out the window and you realise your doing the best job in the world, and one which you love.:ok:

A320

Everyone I know who actually takes responsibility for themselves, works hard towards their career, and has personality is getting a lot of interest or has a job. You have the wrong personality for a pilot, as you have shown by your persistent posting here. It is hardly surprising that you have no job. Despite the fact that you have been told that the market is stronger in the UK than in much of Europe you persist in the assumption that your problems will be encountered by everyone on a British-dominated website. You are therefore disingenuous and dishonest.

Ironic that you complain about your parents' attitude, then you say that you would be even worse, trying to control any children you have completely, even when they are adults. Why do you have the arrogance to demand what other people should do with their lives, just because of your failure? Seems to me like jealousy, that you want to stop people doing what you are incapable of doing.

And......

Learning new skills 'for the love of it' is the right of everyone (in this case if you have shedload of cash, or can drive yourself to get it).

I'm approaching 50 and can afford it- just. If I was really well off, I'd do the licence just to prove I could. 50's too old if you need the work!

Your argument, if followed through generally, closes off virtually every occupation.

Peaple need to dream. Just look at all the whinging threads about Ts &Cs on pprune- No-one OUGHT to want to do it!

CG

For all those who read this thread because of the header, take heed....

There are lots of people like 'A320Rider', the truth is the market, on this side of the pond, is picking up pretty well. Boeing and Airbus are taking record orders, these translate to 5-10 years worth of airline orders taking the industry into the next 20 years. Huge airport expansion across europe (not looking at EGLL here :uhoh: ) coupled with the rise of the loco's is making the oppotunities better. Money at the start is pretty c$$p and the life style can leave a little to be desired at the outset but, it is still fun, challenging and enjoyable and it does get better, but you need the toe in the door at the outset. Seeing London on your last sector at night on a crystal clear evening still takes my breath away!

Don't give up if thats what you wish, you will always find these nuggets in any job!!!

:ok:

A320 rider. My milkman is due to retire next month, he's a cynical miserable W***** as well, may be you should forward me your CV and I can handle it to him, never know you might get his job!

Pm me if your interested!

dude.....stop posting trash all the time and picking fights. why don't you sit down and study your atpl's and maybe one day when your all grown up, you'll be an a320flyer instead of an a320rider.

p.s. i slept with your mother

cheers

A320, As tu pensé à te faire interner ?!

Translation for none french speakers :
Did you think about having yourself interned !?

A320,
you might be right,but I'll tell you what happened to me.
I graduated from the high school in 2002. and wanted to go to the flight school,but my father who is b737 instructor told me not to,because I would never gonna get a job.
From that flight school 30 pilot were recruited in 2004. and Type rated by an airliner and given a job.So that means that if I sterted in 2003. as I planned,I would probably be in that group,and would be flying jets right now.

I'm gonna go from my CPL/IR in oct/nov,don't know yet,but now I'm sure I'm gonna do it,with or without his help.
I think it's better to be unemployed for 2-3 years than work something you don't like next 40 years.

A320 - Why didn't you go to university, get a degree in a relevant subject (law, accounting, engineering etc etc), get a decent paying job and self fund the training that way. Take time out or go on contract for the larger training segments like the CPL and IR and use your holidays for building hours in the US or somewhere cheap, hot and fun. Then whilst you are working earning decent money you can be sending out your CV as well and if it never happens well at least you havent put all your eggs into one basket. You could even try and get a non flying job in an airline and develop your contacts that way. Or you could I suppose get huge loans and sit on pprune bleating about no one giving you a job.

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions."

Does he(A320) elicit certain reactions or what?!

A320 keep them coming always good fun.;)

A320,
I think you're right at some point.It is bulls.hit that every airline is asking you a TR and experience.I have a chance to get a CPL/IR and a fATPL at reasonable price,otherwise I wouldn't even think about getting it.
As it has been said 1000000 times,it is 'rich kids' job',but I hope it will change.
I don't suggest anyone to buy TR,it's airliner's duty to do for us...

The other side of the argument
 

On the other hand there are many people in this industry who are broke and have had their lives destroyed by it....

A320rider is there to let you know that this is a fact... Its the counter argument

He is also quite amusing

A320 you are one funny dude!
They just always fall for your bait.
You should be the next Jerry Springer

oh my god, it s all about me now, you project your frustration on me, so you can feel better.!!
why can you just be honest, and stop dreaming about a flying job.

when you invest 100'000 euro in a training, have you thought it would take 3-4 years to refund your training, and IF you are paid.

How many people are you going to encourage to follow this expensive path (aviation lottery)

Each time you encourage one of these young chaps,he jeopardizes his life and the life of his family. Many families are now in trouble with their bank. They have lost their home, lost their money...


and I am really fedup with your kiddy posts like :"follow you dream, if you don't you will never know...."this is so naive and so childish! why don't you say instead: "go ahead, if you don't find a job, I will pay you back!" , or "here the money for you".
you think you give good advise but you don't take any responsability.


I spoke with an airline manager last day , he told me he does not want people he did not train, want young chaps between 21-23 yeqrs old with 0 hour, and he has 3000 application every year, and he selects only 10-15 guys.

all Cv with hours go directly to the bin.

I am proposing to:

1- stop encouraging students to become an airline pilot.
2-stop telling them to buy for a type rating
3-stop telling them that flying a plane as a commercial pilot is fun
4-do not answer from wanabee questions
5-be just negative (as I am)and moan the best you can
6-be realistic and destroy overconfidence or even confidence.
7-tell the truth about you, and how hard it is.
8-etc

failed another test? proves they work, seems to me you are an arse.

videogames for psy tests?
 

is it advised to play videogames before psytests.

what kind of videogames do you suggest, far cry?doom? donkeykong, pacman, star invaders? frog? flight simulator?

I will go back in my software box to look what I have and spend some hours to shoot to death some people.

Anything that requires Hand Eye Co-ordination and if it's foot aswell that's got to be a bonus.

Maybe a combat flight sim - Hand/Eye Co-ordination plus the fluidity of the areial combat and everchanging scenarios might keep your mental assesment skills on par?

I played a bit of Call of Duty 2 and MS Flight Sim 2004 prior to my tests.

FPS games are really good for your reactions, and try and play some games that use a joystick as some of the actual Pilot aptitude tests require the use of a joystick.

p.s. The most recent great game I have played was F.E.A.R. If you haven't already played it, check it out! :E

A320rider,
People decide of their career before coming to PPRuNe, we do not decide for them, nobody is hiding that the market has been rough for quite some time, that the licences are expensive as hell, that it is unacceptable to pay for a type rating and that certainly not everybody will get to sit in front of a glass cockpit.
After that, they decide to keep going, great i wish them good luck and i hope they got what it takes.
Hopefully they will assume their decision like real men.
You have been on the wrong web site all this time, this is PPRuNe not crybaby.com.
All your posts are only demonstrating that you don't have the right stuff for this career, i mean passion for everything flying, overcoming the technical difficulty of doing something only meant for birds.
You are here for the wrong reason: money prospect, social status, uniform privilege, you've demonstrated it in your past posts.
Why do you think airline pilots with career are waisting their time here discussing and providing info? passion for aviation.
If you had that, you would not be bitter at those young talented and passionate pilots who beat you at the job.

A Flat Glass Screen Display
 

Yes becoming familiar with two screen displays is good

But do remember to put one on top of the other and then put the joy stick on the right hand side.

Familarity with running a computer is essential

And dont forget to look out of the office window

A320 has had his trun, now I would like to say .....
 

In the UK as with any other FREE country you have a open run at what you want to do. If you want the most in life then it costs the most and not just in terms of money but effort, sacrifice, time and of course risk. Otherwise there would be no 'weight' to people's achievement, this isn't just a practical assumption but a soical law of common sense. Indeed all wannabes need to research their chosen career path but we shouldn't be discouraging them, that's just wrong it's like employment apatheid, in which case who chooses and judges on whom can pursue aviation or get's left behind? The flipside to this is that once you done adequate research and worked hard at the training then you shouldn't moan (well not persistently anyway) upon graduation when you can't get a job, you need to be grown up and realise that's just life. Engineers don't leave university and go straight onto build a damn or an award winning skyscraper, that'll come later in their career. However aviation has led many a wannabe into thinking that a jet job is the norm and not the exception which has a negative impact in terms realistic perceptions and distracts pilots from pursuing the more traditional (but still effective) paths of experience and hour building. Maybe the employment framework is such that it's trying to give fATPLs a message that you haven't quite finished yet, go and take the next step in something like Instruction, air taxi, etc and also be patient (remember the best things come to those who wait). Even after all that there will inevitably be some casualties that's just how it is in all walks of life.

As a brief exmaple my wife studied real hard as a Midwife in another country then married me :) and now has to jump through hoops here in the UK to even become a general nurse all due to petty bureacracy. Whereas she sees a load of know nothing nurses brought in from other countries get jobs in hospitals. The difference being just a handful of months worth of experience between them and her BUT she doesn't spend her days complaining about how it's a conspiracy against her, she just gets on with.

In other words aviation is just as brutal in terms of a job market as any other industry, look at the queues of Hollywood wannabes that spend all their money on photo shoots, agents, travelling up and down the country for auditions whilst all the time losing out on alternative careers because they were just trying to get that lucky break? What about my father who studied as a Civil Engineer and upon graduatino couldn't find a job and has recently retired as a factory worker, didn't hear him moan, he just concentrated on other things in life. There are a million and one stories like this out there in the world in many sectors of employment but the difference is those who pick themselves up and those that just sit there complaining about how hard done by they have been. As an aviator never forget how privileged you are with or without a job, must I remind you of the majority in this world that are way, way behind you in terms of quality of life or should I say survival itself.

As for A320rider you disappoint me my friend, have you thought about going to live in Canada and spending a couple of years flying commuter aircraft and moving up through the industry that way? If you love aviation so much have you though about FI AND Ground instruction so that you come as a true instructor package? Maybe you do that for a year get the signoffs, lease a small aircraft and set yourself up in the instruction business. Then you'll get the chance to attract business by telling all your prospective customers that there are many jobs out there just waiting to be filled :) I doubt you'd complain then! There is always a 'next step' it just depends if you have the will inside and think you can make the jump.

What you CANNOT do in life is dictate what other people can or cannot do that is the kind of second rate comment that comes from a politician's mouth. 'Free to do whatever one chooses and responsible for each and everyone of those actions, that's the price of personal freedoms'.

No - it means that different airlines wnat different things from their pilots.

Some place a high degree of emphasis upon technical skills and handling ability, with teamworking skills taken for granted or of a lower priority.

Others will attach a high degree of priority to how the pilot in question works within a team, believing that the key to being a good airline pilot is in what lies between your ears, rather than in absolute stick and rudder skills (although, of course, you need to be a competent pilot).

Most of all, they need to get a "feel" for whether or not that person will fit - they don't want square pegs to try to fit into round holes.

Way, way wide of the mark. Many of our customers are far from rich. In fact, most have to save hard from their earnings to obtain a CPL, IR, MCC and FIC. One such pilot has just, after 9 months as an FI, landed a job with easyjet.

He got that job because he passed their selection - and he put himself in a position to go for that selection by sheer hard work and ability. For the record, he is one of the best "team" people that I have ever seen in my 10 years teaching LOFT, JOC and MCC - being a "rich kid" played no part in him getting where he is today.

It's always been about you. You keep moaning and whinging and bleating about complete and utter bollox. We are captivated, eager for the next chapter of drivel.

Bottom line is, there are loads of opportunities for all out there - I dare say even you, but and here it comes........

You have to get off your arse and do something about it.

If, as seems to be happening, you fail test after test after test, ask yourself what you are doing wrong.

Now, be a good boy and go re-invent yourself like you always do, but this time come back as a positive type.

Moggie,
Having spoke to him yesterday he is far from a rich kid. A normal hard working guy considerably poorer in cash terms but it has paid off and well deserved. There are jobs out there. You have to go and look. Don`t matter whether your mod or integrated, right place right time counts for a lot.

No matter what you say,and what examples you give me,the fact is its a rich kids' job.The one who can buy TR and hours has better chance to get a job than me who can barely afford fATPL.You can agree or disagree,but it is a FACT.Not to mention the advantage you guys from EU states have versus me from non-EU state.Just not being a EU citizen,makes me not employable in more than 100 airlines.And I have to go through the same process to get a licence as you guys do.
There is much injustice in world of aviation,but if you like it very much you'll go through everything to reach your goal...

Heard today about another friend who has a job. Low hours, no type rating, onto a 737. Just been having a beer with a friend who is moving on, was working single-crew for a Danish company now to be working for a UK operator, so there's a job that will need filling by someone with some experience in a job that itself will need fillling by a low-hour pilot.

Lots of jobs around, and A320 is showing a great demonstration of the type of person who doesn't get those jobs. Thanks A320.

guimaraes

I am not sure why you are talking about facts, without knowing a lot about the industry where there are few hard facts and many opinionated amateurs. I was warned against paying for a type rating even though I could find the money. It can be a help, bu can also be a hindrance in finding a job.

More than 100 airlines? For a start who is restricting themselves to airlines? There are more than 100 operators in the UK, let alone Europe!

Most of the people I taught, many of whom now have jobs, were not rich. They would be offended to hear people assume that if they were thin-skinned and not too busy enjoying their work!

Not really on topic but question for delta and moggiee, are Flying Instructors really getting called by Easyjet now? I knew they'd lowered their minimums from 1500 to 500 multi crew, but that kind of surprises me? Did this chap really honestly only have 9 months instructing? And no contacts in the company?