A dream too far
 

I feel it is time to finally lay a dream to its death. I have always dreamt of being an airline pilot but after years of trying, 8 to be precise, I feel I should wave good bye to the dream. I have come close on a few occasions but after failing to gather sufficient monies to self fund I can see no other way but to let go and get on with life.

Some of you might say that I am giving up too easily, but I do not think that I am. I have tried BA got to the last stage and then 911, CTC didn’t meet there standard apparently, Britannia didn’t do well on the Verbal Reasoning and finally Cabair got passed the first bit but got the rejection letter. What next? I see one only solution and that is to give up go home and dream of what might of been.

Redmania

I know exactly how you feel- it is intensely frustrating to be looking for an airline job- have you got your fATPL, or are you looking for ab-initio sponsorship?

CC

I am looking for ab-initio sponsorship.

why were u rejected by CABAIR?



well... u can always try other schools...

I was rejected by Cabair for the Fly be sponsorship.

"I did not show them what they were looking for on the day" or something along those lines.

I cant really try other schools I do not have enough money. My only hope is the lottery.

The decision is your of course, but bear in mind that very very few people gain full sponsorships. The vast majority of people flying today have either self sponsored or found some alternative way in such as military flying. Like yourself, I tried all the sponsorships going, final board at BA, interview with British Midland (as they were then), Stage 3 at CTC McAlpine and final interview at Atlantic. I was turned down by them all, but knew that the only thing I wanted to do was fly so figured out a way to do that. I got a degree and a decent paid job, got a house thats increased in value, and as a result I'm in the position of being able to self-fund my training with no debt (and no contribution from my far from rich parents).

You say you don't have the money to be able to afford it. Have you thought about perhaps a career change to something that pays you decent money but would allow you to maybe do your training part time simultaneously? Sit down with a piece of paper and see if you can work out a way to fund it, or failing that, look at some way of borrowing the money or whatever. Sure its a risk having a big loan hanging over your head, but its up to you how much you want it

Having said that, if you feel its time to do something else then that's probably the best thing for you. Good luck with whatever you decide. PM me if you want to discuss it more.

PW

Hi redmania,
How far have you got with your training in 8 yrs? From my understanding the existing (limited)sponsorship schemes will require you to attend an 'Intergrated' course. Not too sure if you would be accepted if you already hold a ppl? Your also expected to meet a percentage of the training costs anyway, these can be in eccess of £20,000/30,000. Why not borrow this and go modular. Its taken me 7 yrs so far.....begged stole and borrowed.............ok not too much steeling!;)

I went to see HSBC who declined my application for a loan. I asked for about 30K, thing is I have nothing to put down for a loan so it would be 100% and banks are reluctant to lend that kind of money with no security. I only have a few hours as I was always advised not to learn too much, as sponsorship places prefer to train you there way.

Penworth-

What jobs pay a lot? I am intrigued I would change tomorrow if it meant earning enough to be able to save for flying. And as for the housing market, you caught it at a peak. I would need to buy now and wait at least 5-6 years for any substantial gain in value by which time I will be well into my 30s. I have a 2:1 in Engineering, big money seems to fly past engineers.

Redmania, like you I have a 2.1 in engineering. I fully understand that its not the best paid job in the world. I only earn about £23k but even with a mortgage and high maintenance girlfriend I seem to be able to save about £4k per year - admittedly it would take a while to do all your training at that rate but by following the modular route it is possible to spread it over a few years and only do a section when you can afford it. I'm only going to quit my job when I get to the IR stage which I really want to do full time.

The kinds of work I was thinking of were trades such as plumbing, where apparently the pay is pretty good (not sure how much the taxman sees ;) ). Alternatively, with a degree in engineering, you should be able to apply for just about any graduate type job. A lot of people from my course went into consultancies such as Anderson Consulting starting on £30k+ (I wish!)

All I was trying to say really was that there are lots of ways to get the funding other than relying on sponsorships, and as sawotanao says, part sponsorships can ask for up to £30k, which is about the same as a self funded modular fATPL!

PW

Redmania,
Penworth is right, there are ways to earn more money, I too have been thinking about getting my ATPL for 4 years, I have just turned 30 and have finally decided to go for it and am currently doing my PPL and will go the Modular route. I'm guessing that you are still in your 20's so you have plenty of time. Why not look at maybe Engineering Sales where you can earn Commission etc... I'm in Sales and hate it but it's very flexible when it comes to having flying lessons during work time, something you cant do in an office job and if you apply yourself you can earn decent money. It is a shame you dont have a house as I'm selling ours ( I'm married with a 3 year old ) and taking some of the equity, but hey it's not impossible. You must have the aptitude for it to get to the last stage with BA!! Penworth also mentioned trades, plumbing etc... they are 3 year courses to get qualified so too long, however one trade you can learn quickly and earn decent money is plastering, there is a school in Salisbury Wiltshire [email protected] that do a 5 week course for £1,800, once you're qualified you can earn over £40k a year and probably work for yourself so you can fit your flying in. Ok it's not the most glamerous job in the world but hey it might just help you so that you can do what you love!
Good luck

What are you laying to death? The fact that you apply to ab initio schemes as they are advertised?

Thats not really much to 'give up' is it? And if you've been at it for 8 years then surely soon you'll be too old for the age criteria anyway..

Have you actually done a PPL or anything along those lines?

At the moment things really are starting to pick up. I would advise anyone who has sunk any serious time or money into becoming a pilot to stick with it right now.

Perhaps though you do not fit into that category.

Full ab intio schemes really are a dream and as such I don't have a great deal of tears to shed for those who never get one. I didn't, most people didn't yet many of still made it without rich parents.

Cheers

WWW

Redmania, I think you'd probably find that most of us have stuggled to pay the bills at some point during training. I can certainly vouch for myself and may other pilots I know. Obviously some suffer more than others, but this is the way of the world. There's no magic solution, believe me I've looked.

You've got to get positive instead of dwelling on the past.

Chin up!

I Know this post won't be very PC but I don't care so i'm going to post it anyway.

You people make me sick.

Why do you think that the airline industry owes you a job?

You talk about giving up because you cant get a sponsorship. I didn't get sponsored but I'm now fully qualified and looking for my first job. I managed to get the money together and I don't have a rich family to pay for me before that questin gets asked.

Where there's a will there's a way as myself and many of my friends can tell you.

Have fun doing your 9-5 jobs, waisters!!!

Redmania et al -

There is a Government-sponsored scheme called Career Development Loans. These are designed to fund vocational training and living expenses. The loans are provided by commercial banks, but do not require repayment until the training is complete.
The interest rate is not excessive. From memory, participating banks are Royal Bank of Scotland, Barclays and Co-operative Bank.
Try www.lifelonglearning.co.uk

Oh please do give up!!!

I am 33, parents??.. Well they got many ££££££ in the bank, but they squeak very loudly when they walk if you know what I mean. I have not even got 5 mins in the book and I have been waiting for about oh....... 14ish years for the chance to live my dream.

To be honest I could do without you being next to me with your nice new fATPL when I am trying to get my first flying job with the same.... Actually, can everyone please have a holiday for about the next 4 or 5 years.. You will all find it much more pleasure sitting on a beach and it's way cheaper than flying anyway...

I have worked my a$$ off and only now can I start to even think of trying make my dream come true. Even so I'm sure many will agree there is still a long way ahead.

To be honest if you don't fancy the graft and all the other b*****ks, choose something nice an gentle with a fat pay day every month, wish I could do it really.. Co car, travel, weekends at home, life etc..

Depends how much you want it really..


OTB:ok:

Well said OTB!

Its a tough industry to get into and everybody going into it knows that. If they don't have the hunger for it then they should do something different and stop wasting their and everybody else's time.

Ok,
I was a cadet, but I've had my knocks along the way so I can give you a bit of advice. For a start, self sponsorship is risky. Yes, you can earn the money to pay for it yourself, but flight schools are not always kind to self funding students and it's a crap way to waste years of savings if you don't get the end result you need - ie - you need to leave the school with a good enough reference to get a job low hours. Thats fact. And it can't be taken for granted cos Ive had a lot of friends screwed by flying colleges.

Secondly, it is a dream job, but the reality of it is different and unless you really really know for certain that you want to fly, for example you have a ppl, then I wouldn't tell anyone to put all their eggs in this basket. The process of qualifying can be stressful and disillusioning when you are funding yourself and thats the part people don't plan for. :{

If you have to achieve this in order to be happy, then don't ever give up. Keep thinking of ways in. But coming from someone who did admittedly struggle a bit, it's not a nice path when things start going wrong for you and the dream soon vanishes. :yuk:

I feel for you as I believe in fighting for dreams, even the crazy crazy ones, but flight training is a heartache and if you have financial pressures too then that makes it worse. You have already failed sponsorships, which actually isn't necessarily a reflection on you, but that won't have helped your confidence.

Take heed.
GE xx

Just reread this thread and had an afterthought.

There\'s a lot of sour grapes from those who weren\'t sponsored and they take delight in telling us all how hard they have worked etc etc etc.

Well, the majority of my friends in flying were sponsored, so it does happen to a lot of people, and I\'ll have you all know that sponsorships don\'t just fall on the laps of the Gods. So I understand the disappointment in failing to get one, it would have broken my heart not to have got one, and it\'s a little harsh to start telling people that they should get off their arses and do it all themselves. Yes, some people do that and make it, but HELLO A LOT MORE DONT.

Redmania, stay positive but don\'t listen to those who say you don\'t deserve. Thats just resentful rubbish. I\'m in the job, I enjoy it, I count myself lucky, and because I know I was lucky I really want to encourage those who are still trying for it. Go for it. Good luck.

Sorry 'great expectations' but I disagree

I think the guy should go ahead and quit.

Because to be honest redmania my friend, if you're the kind of person that packs their bags and gives up on their great lifelong dream simply because you didn't win the great sponsorship lottery on the first attempt, then you are not going to be cutting much mustard on MY flight deck on that proverbial dark and stormy night when everything has failed and it all looks dark and dreadful and we are spearing towards that hill at 400 kts ... successful pilots don't EVER give up. They look and assess and make hard decisions and laterally think their way out of seemingly insurmountable problems.

Furthermore, if you also display the basic lack of grace to come and whinge on an internet bulletin board looking for sympathy, when the great majority of people here are all in the process of slaving their guts out / working all the hours that god sends in crap menial jobs / washing planes / working in ops / hanging round airports / saving a few quid a week towards their PPLs / remortgaging their houses / their mum & dad's houses / their mate's houses / their cars / anything else they've got that isn't nailed down ... all so they can get on with pursuing their own dreams ... then to be honest not only do you not deserve anyone's sympathy, but it will be a bloody travesty of justice if you ever DO get a farkin sponsorship and beat some of these other incredibly hard working people to that airline hot seat.

You want advice here it is: get yourself together, pull your finger out, go apply for a Mcdonald's assistant manager's position, move into a crap flat with some flying instructors and start saving £100 a week towards your PPL and your ATPL theory subjects. Do that for a year or two and then go back to your bank manager with the proof of your convictions. He'll pay for the rest, guarantee it :ok:

Luke,

Takes a lot to get me worked up but that post just about managed it Luke. If you haven't got compassion and sympathy then I don't want guys like you on my flight deck. This is a human factors job, and as far as I'm concerned we all have our own paths in life. Don't know about your company, but most times I go to work we aren't screaming at 400kts towards hills, so that wasn't a rational point you made. You don't have to be superman to be good at this job - it's just a job and any one can be good at it. I'm nobody special, but I'm ok at what I do and I don't go ouit of my way to put people down or make judgements about who is or isn't worthy of sitting beside me. I'm an ordinary girl, nothing special about me, and if I can do it so can redmania.
This job attracts too many arrogant idiots who think they're special.

Redmania, they're not all like that. The successful guys are always encouraging, thats what CRM is all about.

And, Luke by the way, you wouldn't catch me dead working in McDonalds, passion for flying or no passion, you'd never see the day. So I wouldn't expect it of anyone else either. Get a grip. Being an airline pilot is not a test of what you have withstood or sacrificed in the past to get to where you are. It is not survival of the fittest. It's just luck of the draw and I know that it can be very hard to take when your lot doesn't come up. Ive been there. But I'm one of the chosen few and I'm grateful, even though I didn't wash planes or sell my house or work in fast food... I know I'm worthy of it because of who I am, not what Ive done. Redmania in himself/ or hereself may be far more deserving than the hardest working plane scrubber you can find. Ponder on.
xxxx:ok:

I 'was' trying to be motivational, g.e., in my own abrasive and obnoxious kind of way :E

You just can't get take it personally and get all heart broken over this whole sponsorship thing, for the simple reason that there are literally hundreds, and in some cases thousands, of incredibly highly suitable people applying for every available place. You may be Chuck Yeager himself but it's a chance in a million at the end of the day.

However, there are very few people who can't drag themselves up by their own bootstraps and get themselves into flying, the old fashioned work-for-peanuts, beg-plead-scrounge-for-flying-hours, kiss-ass and sell-your-soul-to-the-devil way. In fact it's still the only way in most countries, where the mere concept of an airline 'sponsoring' someone through their training is completely laughable.

If you wouldn't work in Mcdonalds in order to pursue your flying dream, well bully for you, I'm very glad that it all worked out for you without you having to get your lily white hands dirty. But if you do ever pitch up at my airline, I'd advise you not to go making grand statements like that, especially not to the handful of young guys and girls that work in our ops department loading freight at 5 am and doing flight plans and sweeping hangar floors and making coffee for the boss while they patiently knock out their ATPLs and hope that it all works out for them in a year or two. Because they would crawl across broken glass to be in your privileged position ...

There is a huge difference between "I'm giving up applying for sponsorships" and "I'm giving up on my flying training".

For the later I would want to offer encouragement and consolation. For the former I kind of say - so what?

I understand that there are very poor people who would make good pilots and just can't raise the £50k needed. I also think such people are quite rare.

It really isn't very hard to make £500 a week these days. A friends father pays that a week to labourers in his painting business. Cash. Two arms, two legs and the ability to get out of bed at 8.00 reliably are the only real requirements.

In 100 weeks you'd have £50,000. Call it 200 weeks allowing for paying your Mum some keep and necessary living/beer costs.

4 years graft and you are good to go. Less if you are willing to do a bit of taxi work in the evenings/weekends...

Cheers

WWW

:) If you are screaming towards a hill at 400knots luke in your current machine you certainly have some problems.

WWW has hit the nail on the head. It is possible for anyone to get the cash together if they really want to. The jobs may be horrible, hard work ****ty hours and the rest.

Its best when you start to presume you won't get a sponsership and work away to pay for it yourself. Then if you are one of the very lucky ones and a sponsership does come up you have a nice deposit for a house.

MJ

Is this not a wind up?

:ok:

... and the funny thing is, WWW, that after you've worked at that job that pays £500 a week for a couple of years you then have to go and take a bloody great pay CUT when you get your first airline job :(

Come to think of it, if I had a job that allowed me to save £50,000 over two years then I'm damned if I'd quit it to go fly some poxy airliner ... I'd do it for 10 years 'til I had a half mill in the savings account, invest it all at 10% p.a., retire at the ripe old age of 39, p!ss off to Fiji and lie on a beach drinking pina coladas all day (periodically getting up off my sun lounger to go flying in my little microlight-on-floats that I bought with some of my pocket money).

And once in a while I'd think of all me old mates working like dogs, flogging those battered old airplanes through the British weather all day and night... and I'd laauuughhh :p :p

And then you'll spend 2 twelve hour shifts making £150 after expenses if you're lucky. Take it from someone who knows and stick with the manual labour. It pays far better for far less hours.

Other than that I'm with WWW et al on this one. If you haven't got it then go out and earn it. Age may not be on your side by the time you've done that, but if nothing else you'll have enough money to enjoy your PPL privileges and fly.

Bets of luck to all

Or just buy a poxy terraced hovel somewhere and wait 2 years... oh sorry - thats been done already.

WWW

WWW. Jobs that pay £500 a week don't grow on trees. To get a job that pays that requires more than being able to get outta bed at 8.00am. A good degree in fact!

Plus everyone talks here about sponsorships being one in a million chance. Thats simply not true. CTC take 6 cadets a month, 72 a year. They plan to increase this further in years to come.

They base you against a standard, not how many people apply, so technically numbers dont count in their specific scheme. If you meet the standard you'll get it, no matter how many people apply.

Worth thinking about that isnt it?

Mooney12

There are loads of manual jobs around that will pay £500 week. Just need searching out, just like most things. Effort in - Results out.

Don't need to be so hard on this guy. He's spent 8 years dreaming about getting a sponsorship and playing Microsoft Flight Simulator so he doesn't get into any bad habits before the gravy train stops at his front door, and now he's at the end of his tether, poor lamb.

GET A GRIP! If its that much of a dream, then you sure didn't chase it very far! My guess is you'da failed the psychometric tests anyway for being timid and crippled by fear of failure.

Show a little backbone and get your hands dirty, try actually risking something to achieve your dream..... when you know what the real cost of an airline pilot's seat is, then you can come back here moaning about giving up on your dream!

You'll exit these forums to the sound of a thousand pairs of hands rubbing with glee thinking "Great! another one down, more chance for me!" (Then those hands will go back to flipping burgers, probably!)

Mooney12 - sorry but they do. Best way to get one? Don't bother wasting 3 years and £12,000 at a mediocre University.

Cheers

WWW

Great Expectations,

It is a GREAT shame that you don't have any higher EXPECTATIONS of yourself:

'it's just a job and any one can be good at it. I'm nobody special, but I'm ok at what I do...'

Anyone can do it.. can they.. I don't think so.. that's cos some people DON'T make the grade.
For sure, it doesn't make u, me, Sky Toddler or anyone else better than them but it still means that the person concerned shouldn't be sitting in Left/Right seat... the other one for the F/Es as well.. sorry lads!

You were sponsored, it appears and claim that most people are.. no they bloody are not. I would be flabbergasted if the ratio of sponsored to self-sponsored in the U.K was anywhere near 1:5.

I would love to hear what your airline would think about you saying it's JUST a job and anyone can be good at it... you're either sh1t hot at your job or disheartened by the high proportion of obnoxious characters on the flightdeck, me thinks the latter! Only kiding.

Redmania.. u want it, don't bloody give up. To go for the BE sponsorship your at least under 28, I've seen bods self-sponsored (integrated AND MODULAR) do it from 40-45.. never submit until the bitter twisted end:E

If anybody is in need of work that pays over £500 per week, look here .

Go to the lower part of the page and pick a company of your choice, clink the link, follow to Driver jobs/recruitment or whatever, apply, show up at interview with a pulse and a EU driving licence and your in!! No degree required, really they don't even care if you attended school!! They even pay all the training costs. (Takes aprox 2 weeks).

Many will also let you work part-time casual while you are learning to fly, heck stay full-time and work a 4-3 roster...

Downside, you will have to live in a grotty bedsit if you don't already live near London. (Some bus operators even provide shared accomadation).

This is just an example, there are many jobs just like this, so there is just no excuse it's all up to you..

Like I said before, just depends how bad you want it!

OTB :ok:

Your looking atleast 700 quid a week tramping in lorrys at the moment.

Its not fun but.....

I get payed 92 quid after tax for a 10 hour shift running a fridge over night for safeway when ever I want it. No crap just phone up and ask for a shift and I get one. The full time drivers get nearly 32k a year for a EU limited hours week. Degrees are for mugs I have always earned more using muscle or unqualified IT knowledge (which isn't an option these days) than my using my BEng.

Just try telling a school teacher that they could earn nearly twice as much driving a lorry than putting up with the crap that they have to day in day out.

The new transport regs are in soon and the exemption is now lost. There are something like 350,000 Class 1 license holders in the UK and only something like 150,000 in use. The average week is being cut down to 35 hours and currently there is already a shortage. Rates in London have been over 10 quid an hour for nearly 4 years.

mj

Love it!!

Agreed. It used to be a privilege, but nowadays it seems every Tom Dick and Harry are going to University, probably to have another few years of lazing about and delaying entering life in the real World. I've worked with 100's of accountants - 5% have a degree relevant to their profession - a lot don't have one at all!!

Going back to the subject, it seems a tough World in aviation. If you've been waiting 8 years for sponsorship rather than devising a plan of going about it the hard way, then I can only say you should forget the whole idea for your sake.

I pretty much agree with Luke SkyToddler, and would consider the general tone of his first post on this thread to be a reality check for anyone thinking of becoming a commercial pilot.

OK, great expectations, he does use a non-cuddly-reverse-psychology-cold-shower-tactic in an attempt to jolt redmania out of of his apparent resignation and self-pity, which in his reply to your howls of complaint he modestly admits to be an attempt to be "motivational" in his own "abrasive and obnoxious" way.

However reality itself can occasionally be "abrasive and obnoxious", and although there is a time and place for sympathy and counselling for every one of us, it is not in the cockpit when things are going badly wrong - a professional pilot needs to sort it out without recourse to such luxuries.

Be in no doubt that this requires above average levels of determination, as 747 Downwind eloquently bears witness.
Perhaps you are simply too modest to recognise this within yourself?

Cloud69 you are obviously unaware of how much can be earned as a licenced taxi driver in a city like Edinburgh or London. I drive a cab for money and work as a flying instructor for pleasure - although I enjoy working as a cabbie and get paid to instruct, those are the priorities which each occupation fulfills amply.

It helps to have a B plan (and even a C or D plan!) which needn't be to the exclusion of your A plan in any case - it might in fact help you acheive it. A few very practical suggestions have been posted above. On the other hand you might end up with an even more lucrative and rewarding career outside aviation which allows you to fly for fun.

Moreover, as mad_jock illustrates above, impressive job titles aren't everything.

Errr, £500 a week is about £30 000 a year after tax and NI contributions.

www - your living in a dreamworld. Getting a degree is not a waste of time. Everyone has one these days, so if you don't have one, your not doing yourself any favours.


£500 a week is an excellent wage which requires more than a 'pulse' to get.

Lets take www's advice, no go to uni and 'waste' 12k and get a 30k a year job by turning up on time with a pulse.

rubbish.

WWW,

I would just like to join the back of the queue to bash you :)

Your view is common to successful people who have dragged themselves to their goals through adversity. The world appears very polarised between the haves (good honest folk and not shy of a days work) and the havenots (lazy good for nothings). An attitude not entirely dissimilar to ex-smokers and their views of smokers if I may say so.

Mooney

Earning £500pw + requires more than a pulse, but it definitely doesn't need a uni degree, as several people on this thread have attested to.

The value of having a degree has decreased since I got mine a few years ago. Its still a "nice to have" thing on my CV, but if making a lot of cash to fund training is all you're interested in, its certainly not required.

btw I think you'll find that WWW does have a degree.

PW

But I don't, and nor do most of my colleagues in Virgin - and we do OK for money compared to most! Degrees are certainly not necessary to obtain a decent living, and it's perfectly correct to say that you can earn the money you need if you want to, and you're physically fit enough.

Right now the building trade is having a real purple patch; there are nowhere near enough brickies, chippies and plumbers and so the wages are very good for skilled, reliable tradesmen. If you want to earn the money to pay for your training in reasonable time (and you don't have the entrepeneurial talent to make money by selling things), then get yourself a skill that's in high demand yet doesn't need loads of investment (either money or time).

Scroggs

i have had my heart set on beig as pilot for the last 15 years. Therey has not been one day go by when i haven't imagined/dreamed/wished for/hoped for landing the job or getting a lucky break.

I've had more than my fair share of rejections but I'm not giving up and woont give up.

If you want something badly enough, you'll get it.