Giving up allows another to fill your boots
 

Redmania,

After 8 years of trying, how on earth can you now be wanting to give it all up ???? (Taking into consideration SARS, Eyeraq, Afghanistan, Foot and Mouth,911, Financial crises,oil prices.....)

I presume you have educational qualifications coming out of your ears ? You would not have got to a final interview with BA if not. If this is the case, that is 7-10 years worth of hard graft. Then another 7 years of busting a gut doing every job possible to earn a crust to go towards flying.

Have you a PPL ? Any flying hours to show some motivation and that you have some aptitude to flying ? There are some organisations that give flying out for FREE !!!! Have you researched these? Applied for one or two of these wonderful offers. Got off your ar@@ and perhaps become a member. (Don't pm me asking who they are, as have done previous internet lazy bods)

My wonderfully impressive job resume reads

Cockroach killer, Strawberry picker, Sausage maker, Chauff'r, Loo Cleaner, Sandwich maker, Vomit wiper.......oh and for the least paid jobs include Engineer and Finance guru.

Its also taken a few years, but i ain't never givin up on the money so far well spent.

Those that give up, simply make the queue smaller. C'est la vie. Actually, i should be giving more encouragement that you do, it would save all the money on the stamps/envelopes/cv bashing. If you have any mates who are in a similar position, please please explain your thoughts, so that they too might give up as well. Hopefully then, in a few years time, there will be such a big pilot shortage, that my wages will be astronomical.

PS
For a reality check, take a look at some of the hard graft that people in the African and Asian continents put up with to make minor miracles happen....we have it easy by comparison.

PPS
I'm now in need of a beer, anyone care to join me.

Goldfinger :ugh:

It's always the way.... Someone offers a beer and I gotta go back to work and drive a bus... Still the upside is, while your drinkin, my flying fund is growing... ;)

OTB:ok:

High Wing Drifter

Your view is common to people who have been born with a silver spoon jammed up their arse! If I may say so.

Touche,

Merlin.:eek:

:ouch:

Back to the topic?
 

As I see it...

Degree vs No degree
Mega buck job vs the rest of us
integrated vs modular
Sponsored vs self sponsored.

None of that really matters, for each one of those variables there will be people who represent both sides (and who have a gained an fATPL and then a job). And for the most part, no matter which way you get the licence there will be ups and downs and lots of hard work.

Surely the point is that after trying for a sponsorship for 8 years, you could use your initiative and perhaps start to think and plan for self sponsoring.

Its just a matter of adapting to the circumstances with which you have been presented with, either take on the new challenge or give up?

Personally (and perhaps net very PC), if people give up, less competition for me at the job interview(s) next year!!

GQ

£500 a week in cash adds up to a lot more than £30k a year my friend. The painter works for cash and the customer is happy with the discount - the labourer works for cash and is happy. Everybodys happy - bar the taxman. Its the way of the world.

£500 a week in cash is available right here right now if you are willing to labour all day. Not a bad prospect if you are in your 20's. Beats not having money being half bored to death at University on a course that isn't quite what you had expected all the time wondering how and when you'll be able to get an ATPL and a jet job.

Honest, if I had a son and I couldn't persuade him not to become and airline pilots - and believe me I'd try - then my advice would be good set of A-levels to show you're not thick. Then a job as a plumbers/sparkies/brickies/painters/chippes mate, be keen, learn the trade as you go, live at home and save like a maniac. At 22 you'd have the £40k you need to move from your present PPL and ATPL distance groundschool to the full CPL/IR Frzn ATPL + MCC + FI rating and BE IN NO DEBT.

He'd have am instant fall back profession whilst job hunting, he'd have no debt, he'd still be very young and he would still be able to apply to nearly all sponsorship schemes as rarely if ever do they ask for a degree.

What's better:

A - 23yrs 225hrs CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC and FI rating, no debt and able to pick up £500 a week as and when there's no flying to be done, applying to all the airlines for jobs.

B - 23yrs 50hrs UAS time PPL pending, £23,000 in debt and applying for graduate jobs all over with some but not glittering success maybe securing a 'graduate job' flying a desk for £18,000. Applying to all the airlines for sponsorship if they are offering it.

But that would just be my 18yr old son and obviously everbodys different.

Cheers

WWW

I am totally aware of how much London and the large cities like Edinburgh cabbies earn.

Yes, I have the option to move there, but I didn't intend on doing this as a career, the need to earn and family commitments has kept me here for the moment. Clearly I have chosen the wrong place to live as the South Coast is full of people with huge mortgages and small disposable incomes, whereas up North it does seem easier to earn more as the public have more to spend on luxuries such as taxi journeys. Plus our council (yes I own a LICENSED taxi company) set ludicrously low rates, far lower than London and Edinburgh. THIS ALSO APPLIES TO THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY so my point that one would be better off with a manual job (or driving lorries as mad-jock refers to) stands.

Unless you live in a large city and want to go through all the knowledge tests then steer well clear of taxi driving and earn that money through other means.


There are now too many people with a university background IMHO, and with no real experience of life, and as a rule very little common sense and wherewithall to survive in todays competitive climate.
Additionally there is still too much emphasis on job title in the heirarchy of life. If you are prepared to go out and work it shouldn't mtter what you do. At the end of the day if it is providing a means to an end who gives a stuff??

And quite frankly those that don't believe what is available out there moneywise for doing relatively menial work have never had to try and find it. I shall now duck
:rolleyes:

WWW

Hear hear.

Too many people worried about what others will think. Too many too young to know better unfortunately.

Excellent post WWW, certainly made me think.

HWD...lol...you took that riposte from V12m on the chin with such grace, you're a proper gent - unless of course you happen to be a lady - so you are! Surely such a sense of fair play can only emanate from the playing fields of Eton, Harrow or suchlike. :p

cloud69, likewise I am aware of the regional variations in the cash to be made as a Taxi Driver - it's just that I felt you were initially over-generalising the case against Cab Driving from your own experience. Moreover, aside from the extremes, I'm sure there is a lot more middle ground in cities like Bristol and Leeds for example.

WWW, do you really think that an 18 year old son would stick to your masterplan?

From one point of view, youth is simply wasted on the feckless young - and from another, he has to make his own way and learn from his own mistakes. In any case, there is more to life than spending your youth remorselessly paving your way towards scrambling to the top of the heap.

Judging by the deafening silence from redmania, perhaps MJR was right...

otherwise:-

SHAPE UP MAN, YOUR A SLACKER...YOU WANNA BE A SLACKER FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?

Blackshift,

Paddington Comprehensive actually :O

Basically what your talking about is illegal labour with no prospects www

Sign me up right now! :rolleyes:

If you call a self sponsered ATPL with little or no debt, no prospects then yes! :rolleyes:

I dont think you would be the only person in the country labouring for cash in hand.

Hang on a wee minute...

£500 pw is over 30,000 a year????

500 * 52 = 26000,

Secondly jobs for £500 pounds are week are certainly not that prolific. Not where I live anyway. London perhaps, but factor living costs etc, and you are left pretty much where you started.

As a graduate myself I do agree with many of the posts here about the worth of a degree. I personally enjoyed doing my degree and the experience it gave me I wouldnt change for the world, however It must be said that many graduates leave expecting the world to be their oyster and sadly this is no longer the case (it may have been 30 years ago). There are many disgruntled graduates who feel that the world owes them a living, (for a time I felt like this), however many 'graduate jobs' are little more than a title. One friend worked as a 'graduate sales consultant'. In truth he was a telesalesman, the only reason they wanted graduates was because they knew that a desire to earn big money (by former skint graduates) could promote the ruthlessness which they required on the telephone to make the sales, which is sad.
This said it is very hard for students, upon graduation, to point to a career and say 'i want to do that', those that do, find that they have to start at the bottom of a very unappealing ladder, which after working your arse off for 3 - 5 years is rather dissapointing.
It isnt easy finding a well paid job out there, some may have been lucky, or be slightly misguided in their views. Factor in the fact that paying for flying cant be achieved without large sums of money and it is easy to see why some could become despondant.


:suspect:

TS

I believe WWW meant £500 in your hand which is indeed worth well over £30k gross. To give an example, I pay my office manager £400 week but she only takes home £293 week. Sure you can appreciate the difference between net and gross without a more detailed example :D

I am currently undertaking a PPL, I have 8 hours so far. I will keep ticking away, who knows what might happen. I have also bought a home so hopefully that will go up in value over the next 3 years and I may have the equity to continue with my dream.

I feel sorry for some of you who have not made it the sponsored way, I know sponsored people who do not have the guts and courage that some of you have on here.

Regards.

I give you it may be a regional thing.

I remember the day when i got my National insurance number aged 15. Great I thought i can go and get work in the oil yards.

Signed up with a labour agency and over the summer hols. earned myself nearly 4 grand doing 6x14 shifts. Although I must admit that my mother was a bit upset when she found out that the work was pipe slinging, shot blasting and drifting. I should imagine its now banned someone that young having to dodge 10 tonnes of pipe rolling off a stack or running an industrial shot blaster. It still makes me shiver thinking about doing a over night shift in the snow up in altens.

In my experence the more dirty dangerous horrible hours the work is the better payed. For most of the group of students who used to work during the holidays they still don't make as much money as those holiday jobs. And student loans got us some rather nice returns on the stock market. My first job as a graduate engineer for 15k was a bloody shock.

Now the skills i reckon would keep you in good stead as a school leaver trying to decide how to get enough dosh to fly.

No degree

1. Plumber
2. Joiner
3. Roofer
4. Carpet Layer
5. HGV
6. LPC
7. Sparky
8. Bricky

Degree

1. Dentist
2. Optician
3. Pharmasist

All these jobs allow you to do homers or locum work when money is either tight or your unemployed and all are very well payed.

MJ

I know this is a bit taboo, but let's be honest here.

It's little more than the good old British class system which curtails flexibility in these matters for a lot of people.

The gnawing fear of being percieved as declasse.

Well, hell mend them!

What a load of old tripe, Blackshift!

What puts people off doing manual jobs these days is that they are not brought up in the expectation of ever having to do physical labour to earn a living - and that's true whatever their 'class'.

When I was of late school and university age, it was the norm to earn your spending money working on building sites, in garages, picking up litter or whatever it took. I am from what you would no doubt regard as a privileged background (public school etc), yet I and most of my friends did all these things and more to get money to help us through our studies - student debt is not a new concept.

Just as well we did, as my airline pilot's pay is not enough for me to able to afford to get plumbers and builders in to maintain my house - I have to do it myself!

Scroggs

That's all very well scroggs, we're all aware of the "student job" scenario, but it's an entirely different matter in terms of doing such jobs in your mid to late twenties or thirties.

Moreover, we are not necessarily refering to manual labour here : HGV or cab driving involve about as much of that as being an airline pilot.

I know plenty of people who are underpaid and overworked in "managerial" jobs who nevertheless gasped in disbelief when I packed in that game to work as a cabbie, declaiming by way of barely concealed admonishment that they could never possibly consider giving up their job to do so something like that, even for double the money! The implication being that I had somehow dropped out/lost the plot/gone off the rails or whatever.

If my understanding of the social coditioning behind this state of affairs is simply "a load of old tripe", I would be gateful if you could explain it for me without reverting to that hoary old chestnut of "gosh, I had to wash dishes in the summer when I was a student!" or whatever.

This is an earnest and entirely relevant contribution to the subject matter of this thread, in that it would have been much more difficult for me to organise the time, money and mental energy to tackle FI, CPL or IR flight training if I hadn't done something like this.

I have no desire to criticise anyone for their background, just a deeply ingrained and almost subliminal self-delusory way of thinking that holds many back from a comprehensive "reality check" with regard to their own personal circumstances and opportunities.

I'm sorry but cab driving nor HGV driving does not entail quite as much as does being an airline pilot. Not denegrating anyone here but it just doesn't. No Scania or Nissan Bluebird that I know of has as many systems as a Boeing or Airbus nor are they operated by a crew in a lethal environment under the aegis of a raft of law and treaty.

If you crash your truck you make the local news on a slow day...

I actually think Blackshift that there is a change coming about in perception. Who wants a JustAnotherDegree and a McJob these days? Prestige and acceptance is turning towards being a tradesman.

Who do you have more respect and reverence for? Your bank manager or your plumber? For me it is the latter. I can find another bank tomorrow but not a good plumber.

It seems that it is quicker to earn and save for an ATPL by following the trade route than by following the graduate route. That is all some of us are saying.

Cheers

WWW

Ok, Blackshift, I do understand what you're getting at, but I disagree that it's a class thing. It's far more of a perceived status thing - which has more to do with individuals' belief of what constitutes a suitable occupation for them individually than it does with any concept of what their particular strata of society should or should not do. To that extent, I think class is an outdated concept - but arrogance and misplaced self-worth will always be around!

But that's an argument for somewhere other than this topic or forum...

The fact is that if you wish to earn a reasonable living wage while studying for a self-sponsored ATPL, it is a relatively straightforward proposition to do so, so long as you are willing to take on the kinds of jobs we are suggesting. If social conditioning makes it impossible for any individual to do this, then more fool them. It is a means to an end, no more and no less.

Scroggs

AAAAARGH!...ATTACK OF THE KILLER MODERATORS......Duuh! :rolleyes:

Read my post again WWW and you will notice that I never for one moment suggested otherwise. Even flight instruction in a humble spam-can is quite a bit more complicated.

The point being made was simply the relatively similar amount of "physical labour" involved.

...other than that, I'm pretty much with you all the way here!


Whether it's called "class consciousness" or "status anxiety" is really neither here nor there scroggs - either way it amounts to the same old prejudice about "getting one's hands dirty".

Blackshift,
I dont think www and scroggs are ganging up but, you do seem to have a bit of a class chip on the shoulder thing going on... Just an obs..

The only thing that is the same between Lorry drivers/Cab Drivers/Bus Drivers and Pilots is that they all seem to complain a lot.:D

I met quite a few pilots from all different backgrounds and airlines during my time driving buses at BA, and I don't think there were any two who had the same story to tell on how they became a pilot. They honestly came from all walks of life. True or not, www, scroggs??

Does it matter how you get there as long as you do.. Becoming a Pilot the self-funded way is a project not a career change. Raising the funds is only part of it. It's up to all of us wannabes to find our own way there, that's what the 'self' bit means.

PMA towards working is the only answer, whatever your background, maybe the driving/building/factory jobs do suck, I know mine does, but, if the office job pays 12k pa and you cant get flying, might be time to look where you can do better.

Everyone of us knows it's not on a plate even for the fortunate ones. I see the crap job pre and post ATPL as just part of the project. I think that I am lucky being able to drive both lorries and buses because I'll never be more than a few hours between unemployed and working. Also, look to the future. There you are, at the pointy end, doing the job of your dreams then bam, airline goes under, everyone's on the street to the Job Centre. With the 2-3 years LGV/PCV driving already under your belt, you'll be working within hours. It's a good safety net.

OTB:ok:

I'm just glad my 10 year old has no interest in being a Pilot, don't think I could take 2 goes round..

Riiight. 8 hours in eight years? It certainly does sound like a dream mate, and one that is going to stay that way. Theres no wonder that you haven't managed to get sponsorship, with such an obvious drive to reach your goal...

Another perspective
 

Another option which I think may be worth considering is to go into the city where the salaries quite frankly make a mockery of everything else! A young and hungry chap can within a couple of years could be earning £40-£50k for doing a corporate banking/shipping broking etc job. My Sister in Law went into finance with a third class Psychology degree. Ten years later aged 34 she earned 140k basic pay plus 140k bonus and that's by no means exceptional. Another friend of a friend makes £65 000 a month as a futures trader and basically could retire tomorrow aged 35 if he wanted to.

Sometimes I wonder whether I should have done it when I was 22 for a few years just to 'set myself up for life' Then at 30 you can decide what floats your boat.

Much as I despise the culture of greed in there and would no dounbt hate the environment there's something to be said for suffering it for a few years to never have the financial concerns the rest of us have.

(I ended up in airline Management which contrary to what you read on here isn't actually that well paid)

Desk-pilot

Ah yes... and here we have the good old commonal-garden slapdown for having the temerity to utter the dreaded "c" word...:ouch:

Like I said, I know it's a bit taboo - whether unfashionable, non-PC, or "off message" in Blairite parlance - to put it in this context.

But that doesn't alter the fact that there are those who would seem to consider it "beneath them" take the sort of practical advice offered by the majority of posters here.

Despite the many pros, including the gilt-edged "safety net" argument as proposed by both WWW and otb, weak excuses (if any!) are offered about being unwilling or unable to take up such opportunities, and it is my suspicion many are in a state of denial about their simple snobbery.

If that means I have a "chip on my shoulder" then so be it.

An ex g/f once told me that one of the things she liked about me ( it wasn't a long list :( ) was that I didn't get my hand's dirty for a living. I was pretty dissapointed that she could say such a thing - and not only the grounds of being condemned with faint praise - but it turned out that this had been drummed into her by her mother as being very important. Exactly the kind of thinking one all too often comes up against.

It seems that my crime has been to call a spade a shovel.

Career loans
 

:uhoh:

I may be wrong, LGS6753, but i think the maximum these guys will lend you is £8k. I don't know what career that will develop but certainly not ours.

I went down the HSBC route. Initially they refused my application for a loan but I kept going back. I made a thorough business plan and spoke with the branch manager. Eventually they cracked...

I think half the test of being an airline pilot is seeing if you can make it through all the s:mad: t and get out the other side. It is a test of character and also it shows that you really do want it.

So if you are sure this is what you want to do (and it sounds like you are), don't give up and don't let them grind you down,

HG :ok:

Simple fact is the more talent you have, the less :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: you will have to put up with to get into the RHS

Yeah right!

Not saying this does not apply to any extent, especially to those who occupy either extreme of the generally accepted standards of professional competence, but it is both a poor generalisation and a massive over-simplification - I personally know of more counter-examples to that than you could shake a stick at.

Being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right people ( ie the old adage "who you know, not what you know") is at least as important.

...as many of those who have made it to the flying job of their dreams have the modesty to attest.