Military Pilot to Civilian Flying?
As a first start, might I suggest that you download and peruse at length the CAA's licensing document LASORS from http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ls.asp?id=1191 . Currently it's the 2004 version; the 2005 version should be out soon.
Full sponsorship is virtually unheard of these days - and a full 'Integrated CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge' (commonly termed a 'frozen ATPL) will set you back around £50k with no guarantee of a job at the end of it.
Some of your military hours will count - the FW certainly and perhaps some of the RW if you're looking towards a CPL(A).
The airlines are some way off yet - being open and honest is your best bet.
Sorry that you didn't make it through the OCU - best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
Full sponsorship is virtually unheard of these days - and a full 'Integrated CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge' (commonly termed a 'frozen ATPL) will set you back around £50k with no guarantee of a job at the end of it.
Some of your military hours will count - the FW certainly and perhaps some of the RW if you're looking towards a CPL(A).
The airlines are some way off yet - being open and honest is your best bet.
Sorry that you didn't make it through the OCU - best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
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In my experience you shpuld avoid the advice given here at PPrune. It isn't bad advice, it is more that the CAA treat every case differently. Contact them with the questions, better still try and see someone in person (difficult). Get EVERYTHING in writing because advice may change week to week. They were excellent with me, two years, thirty grand later plus my 4000 military helicopter hours and I had two shiny ATPLs. Pity about 9/11 though...... never got to use the ATPL(A)..... yet
If you do contact the CAA first, probably the first thing they'll ask you is if you've checked LASORS!
People who post questions without bothering to read LASORS first don't show much effective intelligence, in my view. Fair enough if it's something difficult, of course....
People who post questions without bothering to read LASORS first don't show much effective intelligence, in my view. Fair enough if it's something difficult, of course....
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BEagle's advice is absolutely correct, however you would be well advised to contact the CAA's Licencing department once you have read LASOR's. As jayteeto says, the requirements can be varied for people with some military experience, and you need an authoritative (ie quotable) opinion as to whether your hours will count, and exactly what for. Quoting Pprune won't cut it!
I think it's likely you will have to complete the majority of the syllabus for the CPL/IR. For that you need to budget somewhere upwards of £35,000, depending on how you go about meeting the CAA's requirements. If you decide to take the integrated route (i.e. start from scratch with a training provider who will provide all instruction, accomodation, etc), you'll need something over £60,000; the modular route (especially if you have any exemptions) should cost considerably less.
As for the airlines' reaction to you being chopped, that will depend entirely on the recruiting person's opinion of the RAF and its training system, and on their knowledge of the RAF's circumstances in 2004 (ie the somewhat desperate need to divest itself of people!).
Scroggs
I think it's likely you will have to complete the majority of the syllabus for the CPL/IR. For that you need to budget somewhere upwards of £35,000, depending on how you go about meeting the CAA's requirements. If you decide to take the integrated route (i.e. start from scratch with a training provider who will provide all instruction, accomodation, etc), you'll need something over £60,000; the modular route (especially if you have any exemptions) should cost considerably less.
As for the airlines' reaction to you being chopped, that will depend entirely on the recruiting person's opinion of the RAF and its training system, and on their knowledge of the RAF's circumstances in 2004 (ie the somewhat desperate need to divest itself of people!).
Scroggs
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I was in an identical position a few years back, except that I had been in the Navy rather than being a crab 
My experience was frustrating - no-one told me the difference between modular and integrated training, and the CAA were less than useful.
So you can judge my comments in context, I work for an approved flight training organisation, a school that offers full modular courses.
The difference between the courses is that with an integrated course is that the training is completed in a single block, a continuous course, with no intermediate qualifications required. Modular training is broken into a series of courses, and some must be completed before others, in addition to a certain amount of flying that is unrelated to any course.
The courses take a similar time, the modular training is always cheaper due to the less strict approval requirements; schools need to have more resources available for the number of students on integrated courses. Integrated courses include less flying than full modular training, although that may make little difference to you. The modular training is more flexible, and will take into account more of your previous training, certainly any in aircraft that are on the UK civilian register. In this case your recommended flying before the CPL is up to the school you choose. Depending on what you flew you may have reduced requirements for the CPL and IR, but that would be up to the CAA. I may be able to give you a name of a helpful (ex-military, a pongo if he hasn't retired yet, otherwise a crab I knew in my UAS days) CAA insider who may be able to get you a good hearing, as much may be discretionary.
You will get a little off an integrated course for your previous experience. The integrated schools will be able to give you an idea of how much. Since these are already more expensive courses, you can expect to pay significantly more than for modular training.
My experience (largely responsible for the frustration I mentioned above) was that the only school approved for integrated courses that actually answered the telephone when I was looking for a course firstly did not explain that there were two different training routes, and secondly only tried to enroll me on an integrated course, did not think to quote me for modular training hey could provide. When I learnt more, several months later, I was intensely irritated, and still distrust that school. In my opinion the course is inappropriate for self-sponsored students, but with 180 hours fixed-wing, that they said would cut about 10 hours off my training as opposed to the 70 I saved modular (and nearly 200 rotary that didn't count but made the course easier) it was completely ridiculous. So be wary - don't listen to the marketers (even me, as I work for a school)! Check here, and use your judgement; talk to and visit a variety of schools.
If you need any further advice, or comment, don't hesitate to send me a private message. I can help, or my housemate who is an ex-crab in a similar position to you.
Best of luck,
SC
My experience was frustrating - no-one told me the difference between modular and integrated training, and the CAA were less than useful.So you can judge my comments in context, I work for an approved flight training organisation, a school that offers full modular courses.
The difference between the courses is that with an integrated course is that the training is completed in a single block, a continuous course, with no intermediate qualifications required. Modular training is broken into a series of courses, and some must be completed before others, in addition to a certain amount of flying that is unrelated to any course.
The courses take a similar time, the modular training is always cheaper due to the less strict approval requirements; schools need to have more resources available for the number of students on integrated courses. Integrated courses include less flying than full modular training, although that may make little difference to you. The modular training is more flexible, and will take into account more of your previous training, certainly any in aircraft that are on the UK civilian register. In this case your recommended flying before the CPL is up to the school you choose. Depending on what you flew you may have reduced requirements for the CPL and IR, but that would be up to the CAA. I may be able to give you a name of a helpful (ex-military, a pongo if he hasn't retired yet, otherwise a crab I knew in my UAS days) CAA insider who may be able to get you a good hearing, as much may be discretionary.
You will get a little off an integrated course for your previous experience. The integrated schools will be able to give you an idea of how much. Since these are already more expensive courses, you can expect to pay significantly more than for modular training.
My experience (largely responsible for the frustration I mentioned above) was that the only school approved for integrated courses that actually answered the telephone when I was looking for a course firstly did not explain that there were two different training routes, and secondly only tried to enroll me on an integrated course, did not think to quote me for modular training hey could provide. When I learnt more, several months later, I was intensely irritated, and still distrust that school. In my opinion the course is inappropriate for self-sponsored students, but with 180 hours fixed-wing, that they said would cut about 10 hours off my training as opposed to the 70 I saved modular (and nearly 200 rotary that didn't count but made the course easier) it was completely ridiculous. So be wary - don't listen to the marketers (even me, as I work for a school)! Check here, and use your judgement; talk to and visit a variety of schools.
If you need any further advice, or comment, don't hesitate to send me a private message. I can help, or my housemate who is an ex-crab in a similar position to you.
Best of luck,
SC
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From my experience you will be credited with your hours for license issue but nothing else. The CAA normally exempt Qualified Service Pilots (QSPs) from the requirements for approved training prior to the skills test and IR but you, unfortunately, do not quite qualify as a QSP.
I disagree with Scroggs on the likely costings. I would expect you to have to complete an approved course for the ATPLs (c£3K including exam fees & accommodation) and approved courses for the CPL skills test and IR (c£17.5K including test fees but not accommodation). You might also need an MCC course before you can get a job (c£2K). You shouldn't spend more than £25K in all.
You do need to look closely at LASORS with your log book open to check you have the required PIC hours etc. for license issue. You should meet the most of the hours requirements, though.
I would guess that most airlines would not mark you down for being chopped, it is well known that the RAF having been moving the goal posts rapidly recently. You might even get considered before other applicants because you were good enough to be selected in the first place.
I disagree with Scroggs on the likely costings. I would expect you to have to complete an approved course for the ATPLs (c£3K including exam fees & accommodation) and approved courses for the CPL skills test and IR (c£17.5K including test fees but not accommodation). You might also need an MCC course before you can get a job (c£2K). You shouldn't spend more than £25K in all.
You do need to look closely at LASORS with your log book open to check you have the required PIC hours etc. for license issue. You should meet the most of the hours requirements, though.
I would guess that most airlines would not mark you down for being chopped, it is well known that the RAF having been moving the goal posts rapidly recently. You might even get considered before other applicants because you were good enough to be selected in the first place.
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Thanks to all for your help.
As with most things there seems to be a number of routes and opinions on how this can be done.
The £25k option would be ideal, i don't really want to get into any debt if possible.
Looking at LASORS now.
Cheers
As with most things there seems to be a number of routes and opinions on how this can be done.
The £25k option would be ideal, i don't really want to get into any debt if possible.
Looking at LASORS now.
Cheers
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I'd side with Alex on this one,
having been in a similar position before - the fixed wing hours should port straight accross to civvy hours - a firefly and a PA28 aren't worlds apart. Although you will need to convert this experience to a JAA PPL and night rating.
You will need a minimum of 150 fixed wing hours to start a JAA CPL module - from this position the CPL module skill test and IR module and skill test will complete the hours required for licence issue (subject to 100 P1 hours).
Also as Alex said the fun of the ATPL groundschool will be in order.
I'd say the minimum timescale for all this would be about 9 months.
This is all on the modular side of life - which I would recommend for someone in your position - I don't think you would get much exemption from an integrated course (which would just cost you money and time for no real gain.)
As for how the airlines will look at you for being chopped, I guess it depends what you were chopped for- if it was NoE you may be okay,
but seriously the man from 'teeny weeny airways' said no to me but this did not concern my airline, I'm sure they would see you as good training material - just make sure you ace the CPL and IR!
I know of a few others who were 'chopped' by one flying service or other and they all landed jobs relatively quickly (even shortly after 9/11).
Please don't go spending money on the strength of what I have to say without checking with the CAA - but I thought you might like to hear from someone who was in a similar position who achieved the mission!
having been in a similar position before - the fixed wing hours should port straight accross to civvy hours - a firefly and a PA28 aren't worlds apart. Although you will need to convert this experience to a JAA PPL and night rating.
You will need a minimum of 150 fixed wing hours to start a JAA CPL module - from this position the CPL module skill test and IR module and skill test will complete the hours required for licence issue (subject to 100 P1 hours).
Also as Alex said the fun of the ATPL groundschool will be in order.
I'd say the minimum timescale for all this would be about 9 months.
This is all on the modular side of life - which I would recommend for someone in your position - I don't think you would get much exemption from an integrated course (which would just cost you money and time for no real gain.)
As for how the airlines will look at you for being chopped, I guess it depends what you were chopped for- if it was NoE you may be okay,
but seriously the man from 'teeny weeny airways' said no to me but this did not concern my airline, I'm sure they would see you as good training material - just make sure you ace the CPL and IR!
I know of a few others who were 'chopped' by one flying service or other and they all landed jobs relatively quickly (even shortly after 9/11).
Please don't go spending money on the strength of what I have to say without checking with the CAA - but I thought you might like to hear from someone who was in a similar position who achieved the mission!
A mate of mine was chopped during RAF flying training. He's now management and a training Captain with a respected airline, wheras I'm still a lowly FO. It may seem gloomy right now, but I'm sure it will all work out.
Best of Luck.
Hi Gazeem.
Best of Luck.
Hi Gazeem.
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I know someone who failed the RAF entry tests twice
and now is a captain on a 757......
I think its widely known that the RAF take on more trainees than they have jobs for...wasting public money some say
All it takes is a bad trip and its curtains... any excuse ...next!
and now is a captain on a 757......
I think its widely known that the RAF take on more trainees than they have jobs for...wasting public money some say
All it takes is a bad trip and its curtains... any excuse ...next!
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Hmmm. . .. .
Widely known that the RAF takes on more people than they have places for . .. . .
Not sure on that one. Never heard of anyone passing and not having a cockpit, or people being chopped for a lack of spaces.
PM for some details on ATPL's PileUp. . .. . . .
Widely known that the RAF takes on more people than they have places for . .. . .
Not sure on that one. Never heard of anyone passing and not having a cockpit, or people being chopped for a lack of spaces.
PM for some details on ATPL's PileUp. . .. . . .
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Some questions I hope someone can answer -
1. Do any sim hours count towards your ATPL requirement? (Mil ac sims) - can you claim PIC for Tucano sim hours, for example? LASORS says you can count a max of 100hrs, but is not explicit in this regard.
2. What exactly is SPIC (student PIC) - LASORS mentions it, but again doesn't explain.
3. It is widely believed that you can add 0:20 to every FLIGHT in your mil logbook to account for the different way Mil hrs are logged (t/o to landing, instead of chock-chock). Is this the case? Unable to confirm this in writing anywhere.
I have thoroughly read LASORS, and have perused / searched the FCL part of the CAA website (exceptionally user un-friendly) but to no avial. Thanks.
16B
1. Do any sim hours count towards your ATPL requirement? (Mil ac sims) - can you claim PIC for Tucano sim hours, for example? LASORS says you can count a max of 100hrs, but is not explicit in this regard.
2. What exactly is SPIC (student PIC) - LASORS mentions it, but again doesn't explain.
3. It is widely believed that you can add 0:20 to every FLIGHT in your mil logbook to account for the different way Mil hrs are logged (t/o to landing, instead of chock-chock). Is this the case? Unable to confirm this in writing anywhere.
I have thoroughly read LASORS, and have perused / searched the FCL part of the CAA website (exceptionally user un-friendly) but to no avial. Thanks.
16B
Some questions I hope someone can answer -
1. Do any sim hours count towards your ATPL requirement? (Mil ac sims) - can you claim PIC for Tucano sim hours, for example? LASORS says you can count a max of 100hrs, but is not explicit in this regard.
No. It would have to be in a CAA-approved simulator. There are no accreditation rights for military simulator time in the current QSP accreditations.
2. What exactly is SPIC (student PIC) - LASORS mentions it, but again doesn't explain.
From LASORS Section A Appendix A page 35:
Student pilot-in-command (SPIC):
Flight time during which the flight instructor will only observe the student acting as pilot-in-command and shall not influence or control the flight of the aircraft. SPIC hours can only be accredited for graduates of Integrated Courses for ATPL (A)/(H) and CPL(A)/IR. Clearly this doesn't apply to any military time!
3. It is widely believed that you can add 0:20 to every FLIGHT in your mil logbook to account for the different way Mil hrs are logged (t/o to landing, instead of chock-chock). Is this the case? Unable to confirm this in writing anywhere.
No you can't! The maximum taxi time credit PLD will accept is 5% of the total military airborne hours, up to a maximum of 75 hours credit against the ATPL(A) and 10 hours credit against the CPL(A). See LASORS Section A Appendix B page 39 which also gives the precise taxi time figures which may be credited - e.g. for a fixed wing training aircraft such as a Tucano or Hawk, it's 10 minutes per sortie.
I have thoroughly read LASORS, and have perused / searched the FCL part of the CAA website (exceptionally user un-friendly) but to no avial. Thanks.
LASORS takes a bit of getting used to and in particular the lack of a good index to the .pdf version of Section A doesn't help. But it's all there if you look hard enough!
1. Do any sim hours count towards your ATPL requirement? (Mil ac sims) - can you claim PIC for Tucano sim hours, for example? LASORS says you can count a max of 100hrs, but is not explicit in this regard.
No. It would have to be in a CAA-approved simulator. There are no accreditation rights for military simulator time in the current QSP accreditations.
2. What exactly is SPIC (student PIC) - LASORS mentions it, but again doesn't explain.
From LASORS Section A Appendix A page 35:
Student pilot-in-command (SPIC):
Flight time during which the flight instructor will only observe the student acting as pilot-in-command and shall not influence or control the flight of the aircraft. SPIC hours can only be accredited for graduates of Integrated Courses for ATPL (A)/(H) and CPL(A)/IR. Clearly this doesn't apply to any military time!
3. It is widely believed that you can add 0:20 to every FLIGHT in your mil logbook to account for the different way Mil hrs are logged (t/o to landing, instead of chock-chock). Is this the case? Unable to confirm this in writing anywhere.
No you can't! The maximum taxi time credit PLD will accept is 5% of the total military airborne hours, up to a maximum of 75 hours credit against the ATPL(A) and 10 hours credit against the CPL(A). See LASORS Section A Appendix B page 39 which also gives the precise taxi time figures which may be credited - e.g. for a fixed wing training aircraft such as a Tucano or Hawk, it's 10 minutes per sortie.
I have thoroughly read LASORS, and have perused / searched the FCL part of the CAA website (exceptionally user un-friendly) but to no avial. Thanks.
LASORS takes a bit of getting used to and in particular the lack of a good index to the .pdf version of Section A doesn't help. But it's all there if you look hard enough!
What brought that on, Alex? A bit bloody rude.
I have 24/7 broadband and the e-mails are checked at a 5 min default. When the CAA Publication Subscriptions - Document Notification Service e-mail went 'ping' this afternoon, it seemed only fair to let others know.
Since it was I who started the whole military accreditation thing rolling a few years ago, I take an interest in helping others who don't know what's what.
How's that old bugger Bas these days?
I have 24/7 broadband and the e-mails are checked at a 5 min default. When the CAA Publication Subscriptions - Document Notification Service e-mail went 'ping' this afternoon, it seemed only fair to let others know.
Since it was I who started the whole military accreditation thing rolling a few years ago, I take an interest in helping others who don't know what's what.
How's that old bugger Bas these days?
OK- I guess that it just read that way, Alex.
Glad to hear that Bas is well - it was great having him as my VC10K nav all those years ago. Even at Abbotsford....
He'll understand!
The CAA Publication Subscriptions - Document Notification Service is a little-known but very useful service from the Belgrano inmates.
Glad to hear that Bas is well - it was great having him as my VC10K nav all those years ago. Even at Abbotsford....
He'll understand!The CAA Publication Subscriptions - Document Notification Service is a little-known but very useful service from the Belgrano inmates.