Military Pilot to Civilian Flying?
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Arrrrgghh,
The Navy and the Army fly the shagging Lynx.
The MATLOs fly the Mk3 and the Mk8 easily spotted as they have all sorts of things strapped to the front of them and are painted grey. They also always have wheels.
The Army fly the Mk7 and the Mk 9. The difference, the 7 does the TOW missile bit and has skids the Mk9 does the Light Utility Helo and has wheels.
The Amry ones aren't painted grey they are grren and brown just like the pilots.
Easy isn't it.
Oh and just because we do rotary doesn't mean that we are gonna be harde to train than the guy who has spent 250 hours flying Senecas, Arrows and Warriors.
The Navy and the Army fly the shagging Lynx.
The MATLOs fly the Mk3 and the Mk8 easily spotted as they have all sorts of things strapped to the front of them and are painted grey. They also always have wheels.
The Army fly the Mk7 and the Mk 9. The difference, the 7 does the TOW missile bit and has skids the Mk9 does the Light Utility Helo and has wheels.
The Amry ones aren't painted grey they are grren and brown just like the pilots.
Easy isn't it.
Oh and just because we do rotary doesn't mean that we are gonna be harde to train than the guy who has spent 250 hours flying Senecas, Arrows and Warriors.
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Military Pilot to Civilian Flying
Hi all,
I would like some information about converting from a military pilot to a civilian one. If I was a helicopter pilot in the RN, how would I go about becoming an airline pilot? Would I still have to go through all the training (ATPL theories, CPL, MECR, IR etc) or is there a quicker route? I know that I would be a rotary pilot, is that more difficult to convert than fast jet?
At this stage I am undecided about which career is for me, a SAR pilot in the RN or an airline pilot. I am just looking at all the options so if anyone could help me out that would be great.
(nb: I am just about to start a PPL, fixed wing).
Thanks guys,
Richard
I would like some information about converting from a military pilot to a civilian one. If I was a helicopter pilot in the RN, how would I go about becoming an airline pilot? Would I still have to go through all the training (ATPL theories, CPL, MECR, IR etc) or is there a quicker route? I know that I would be a rotary pilot, is that more difficult to convert than fast jet?
At this stage I am undecided about which career is for me, a SAR pilot in the RN or an airline pilot. I am just looking at all the options so if anyone could help me out that would be great.
(nb: I am just about to start a PPL, fixed wing).
Thanks guys,
Richard
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Military to Civilian
The brief answer is that you shall NOT have to do EVERYTHING.
If you are a current Qualified Service Pilot (QSP) then both your flying and theoretical knowledge are taken into account to some degree.
The type of flying you have been doing will determine the Bridging Courses and what JAA exams you shall have to take.
I strongly advise you to read the CURRENT requirements & guidelines at www.tgda.gov.uk/CAA_Accreditation/htmlfiles this site should answer all your questions, but by time you decide to convert all this might well have changed.
However, you say that you are just starting your PPL and are trying to decide which way to go. I think you need to clearly establish in your own mind what you want to do. There is a big difference in many aspects, both good and bad, between HM Forces and a civilian career, only YOU can decide which is likely to suit you best and that's assuming you get selected.
I strongly advise anyone going into civil aviation to have a backup career/job. I have used my own fall-back position a couple of times. I suggest you look at University, this way you might get a sponsorship from RAF/RN, join the University Air Squadron where you can get a better feel for service life, BUT more importantly WHEN the aviation market goes pear-shaped you will have a degree that will open doors to other options.
Keep all your options open at this stage.
If you are a current Qualified Service Pilot (QSP) then both your flying and theoretical knowledge are taken into account to some degree.
The type of flying you have been doing will determine the Bridging Courses and what JAA exams you shall have to take.
I strongly advise you to read the CURRENT requirements & guidelines at www.tgda.gov.uk/CAA_Accreditation/htmlfiles this site should answer all your questions, but by time you decide to convert all this might well have changed.
However, you say that you are just starting your PPL and are trying to decide which way to go. I think you need to clearly establish in your own mind what you want to do. There is a big difference in many aspects, both good and bad, between HM Forces and a civilian career, only YOU can decide which is likely to suit you best and that's assuming you get selected.
I strongly advise anyone going into civil aviation to have a backup career/job. I have used my own fall-back position a couple of times. I suggest you look at University, this way you might get a sponsorship from RAF/RN, join the University Air Squadron where you can get a better feel for service life, BUT more importantly WHEN the aviation market goes pear-shaped you will have a degree that will open doors to other options.
Keep all your options open at this stage.
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Good advice from RichardH there, but I'd also suggest you post this thread in the Military Aircrew forum as well. There'll almost certainly be some people in the position you suggest.
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Good stuff, all of the above.
I would add:
Do NOT, repeat, NOT go into the RN (or indeed RAF or Army) imagining it is an easy stepping stone to the airlines. It is a long and difficult path, far longer and more stressful than starting (yes, and paying) for your own civilian licences.
Also, bear in mind that you will NOT get to choose what aircraft you fly in the RN. If anyone at a careers office has told you that you will, disregard them. It is possible that you may get to express your preference, but if you do it will be ignored.
Good Luck
Chuffer Chadley
I would add:
Do NOT, repeat, NOT go into the RN (or indeed RAF or Army) imagining it is an easy stepping stone to the airlines. It is a long and difficult path, far longer and more stressful than starting (yes, and paying) for your own civilian licences.
Also, bear in mind that you will NOT get to choose what aircraft you fly in the RN. If anyone at a careers office has told you that you will, disregard them. It is possible that you may get to express your preference, but if you do it will be ignored.
Good Luck
Chuffer Chadley
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Also, bear in mind that you will NOT get to choose what aircraft you fly in the RN. If anyone at a careers office has told you that you will, disregard them. It is possible that you may get to express your preference, but if you do it will be ignored.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
RE
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Thanks for the advise. I am at uni now, I have four years left to go. As far as using the military as a vehicle to becoming an airline pilot, I do not agree with this, if I decide to go civil, then I will start civil. I just have not made my mind up yet, civil or military. The ROS in the RN is four years, and I was looking at what would happen if I decided to go civilian for whatever reason (family, medical etc). As you said, to keep my options open. I will post in the military forum also. Again thanks for the help.
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Rich49-
Glad to hear you talking sense. BTW- I believe ROS is now 5 years in the RN, for all types of ac.
REvans-
This certainly does go for the RAF. The best performers at elementary training will be taken for fast jet, the next best go rotary wing, and the remainder large multi-engined ac. You can also be moved down the scale, for instance if someone selected for fast-jet ac doesn't measure up in training, he may fairly quickly find himself flying helos.
As far as models of ac are concerned, you're again extremely unlikely to get a choice. The best jet-jocks go single-seats, harriers etc.
Good luck.
Glad to hear you talking sense. BTW- I believe ROS is now 5 years in the RN, for all types of ac.
REvans-
This certainly does go for the RAF. The best performers at elementary training will be taken for fast jet, the next best go rotary wing, and the remainder large multi-engined ac. You can also be moved down the scale, for instance if someone selected for fast-jet ac doesn't measure up in training, he may fairly quickly find himself flying helos.
As far as models of ac are concerned, you're again extremely unlikely to get a choice. The best jet-jocks go single-seats, harriers etc.
Good luck.
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Pleased to read that rich49 is already at Uni.
Trust you are going to apply for the UAS and see what its like.
I agree some of the above is useful on the military forum.
Also agree with REvans & CC regarding "streaming" for
RAF. The best/most promising are pointed in the direction of fast jet operations. You don't have a choice.
However, when it comes to conversion into civilian flying , it's the multi-engine, multi-crew pilot's (Herc, VC10) that have the least conversion to do as it is more related to the civil world.
DON'T give the impression to the Careers officer or Cranwell that you want to fly multi-engine/crew, your not the right stuff. Tell them Typhoon, Harrier or Tornado is your goal. They also know that people are using them as a route to the airlines.
Those that are re-selected to multi-engine/crew are probably being done a favour for everybody's sake in the long term.
Trust you are going to apply for the UAS and see what its like.
I agree some of the above is useful on the military forum.
Also agree with REvans & CC regarding "streaming" for
RAF. The best/most promising are pointed in the direction of fast jet operations. You don't have a choice.
However, when it comes to conversion into civilian flying , it's the multi-engine, multi-crew pilot's (Herc, VC10) that have the least conversion to do as it is more related to the civil world.
DON'T give the impression to the Careers officer or Cranwell that you want to fly multi-engine/crew, your not the right stuff. Tell them Typhoon, Harrier or Tornado is your goal. They also know that people are using them as a route to the airlines.
Those that are re-selected to multi-engine/crew are probably being done a favour for everybody's sake in the long term.
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Well, I went down to the RN careers centre today, and I have the initial interview, this will hopfully let me finally make my mind up, I am leaning more and more to the military flying, although this is much againts my parents hopes. If I am not cut for it, then I will fail the selection, so that will be the real 'moment of truth' so to speak. Once again, thanks for your help.
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I cant imagine why, they will have to fork out a minimum of 30-50k if you dont pass you AIB!!. Best of luck though, I didn't get through!!.
Be warned, they smell BS a mile off..
Be warned, they smell BS a mile off..
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Rich49,
Great to read that you are keeping your options open at this stage.
I would point out that flying in the Navy is far removed from an airliner cockpit.
Most of the instructors I knew had the theory that you can teach a monkey to fly given enough time and money. However, the 2 things the Navy do not want is to spend excess time and money on training. Hence they look at creaming off those applicants who show the right skills from the outset. Putting a pilot through the rotary pipeline costs millions, not just £50k to £60k as a fATPL would cost to obtain. That cost is because the actual job is exceptionally demanding. There are few things which concentrate the mind as much as a lynx or even the much larger Merlin landing on the small flight deck of a frigate at night as it pitches and rolls on the sea.
I would suggest you spend as much time sussing out the Navy as possible. Quite simply, you are subscribing to a lifestyle not a job and the road to your wings will be very hard. There are a lot of pass or fail elements which do not relate to flying eg. Dartmouth and Initial Officer Training. Further to this, you would be part of a ship's crew with duties outside of flying. On smaller ships, the flightcrew from the helicopter take on duties such as being the met officer for the ship, as well as being divisional officers responsible for the welfare of a group of ratings. The lifestyle is second to none and the flying can be amazing, but don't set your heart on being a SAR pilot. The posts are few and far between, and very few get the chance to achieve such an ambition. However, all Navy warships provide some sort of SAR aid accross the world and so all aircrew can be called on in emergency situations. The carriers keep one crew and aircraft available at all time as a duty SAR crew and even frigate and destroyer flight crews can be required to conduct SAR. However, the multitude of roles a crew can perform and the working environments are so diverse I couldn't cover it here. As with the RAF, pilots are streamed on their abilities firstly and their preferences secondly, so be aware that you would be there to serve the Navy not the other way round.
There area a couple of questions you should probably ask yourself.
1. Could I live in the close confines of a warship, away from home for months on end?
2. Can I put up with bullsh!t?
3. Do I want a lifestyle which includes some of the most challenging flying available?
The list could go on.
Airlines have their own challenges, and whilst the skill sets are similar the lifestyle is far removed. The biggest difference is that in airlines, pilots and crew are one of the biggest single costs they face. As such if a pilot is not flying, then they are costing the business money. Hence airlines will bleed as much flying out of a pilot as they are legally allowed to. I have never flown for an airline so there are many who could advise you better than I, but I do know that it is far removed from life in the Navy.
In order to play the game, ask your careers officer about POAC courses, (potentiol officer aircrew courses). I "baby sat" a few in my time and it was normally a 2 or 3 day visit to a Naval Air Station. You would get to stay in the Wardroom to see how the officers live, and more importantly visit many of the departments of the Air Station. They try to get you airbourne as much as possible and normally you would get a couple of flights at the very least. It has 2 great advantages. Firstly, it gives you a far better look at the job than any book or video can impart. Secondly it shows how diverse the tasks covered by the Navy are. They used to do all sorts of courses for aspiring officers. I did 2 that I can recall, including a leadership course that was a week long (big help for the AIB).
Dig as deep as you can into both the civil and military routes as it could be the biggest decision you ever make.
PM me if you want and I will help as much as I can.
Regards
Obs cop.
Great to read that you are keeping your options open at this stage.
I would point out that flying in the Navy is far removed from an airliner cockpit.
Most of the instructors I knew had the theory that you can teach a monkey to fly given enough time and money. However, the 2 things the Navy do not want is to spend excess time and money on training. Hence they look at creaming off those applicants who show the right skills from the outset. Putting a pilot through the rotary pipeline costs millions, not just £50k to £60k as a fATPL would cost to obtain. That cost is because the actual job is exceptionally demanding. There are few things which concentrate the mind as much as a lynx or even the much larger Merlin landing on the small flight deck of a frigate at night as it pitches and rolls on the sea.
I would suggest you spend as much time sussing out the Navy as possible. Quite simply, you are subscribing to a lifestyle not a job and the road to your wings will be very hard. There are a lot of pass or fail elements which do not relate to flying eg. Dartmouth and Initial Officer Training. Further to this, you would be part of a ship's crew with duties outside of flying. On smaller ships, the flightcrew from the helicopter take on duties such as being the met officer for the ship, as well as being divisional officers responsible for the welfare of a group of ratings. The lifestyle is second to none and the flying can be amazing, but don't set your heart on being a SAR pilot. The posts are few and far between, and very few get the chance to achieve such an ambition. However, all Navy warships provide some sort of SAR aid accross the world and so all aircrew can be called on in emergency situations. The carriers keep one crew and aircraft available at all time as a duty SAR crew and even frigate and destroyer flight crews can be required to conduct SAR. However, the multitude of roles a crew can perform and the working environments are so diverse I couldn't cover it here. As with the RAF, pilots are streamed on their abilities firstly and their preferences secondly, so be aware that you would be there to serve the Navy not the other way round.
There area a couple of questions you should probably ask yourself.
1. Could I live in the close confines of a warship, away from home for months on end?
2. Can I put up with bullsh!t?
3. Do I want a lifestyle which includes some of the most challenging flying available?
The list could go on.
Airlines have their own challenges, and whilst the skill sets are similar the lifestyle is far removed. The biggest difference is that in airlines, pilots and crew are one of the biggest single costs they face. As such if a pilot is not flying, then they are costing the business money. Hence airlines will bleed as much flying out of a pilot as they are legally allowed to. I have never flown for an airline so there are many who could advise you better than I, but I do know that it is far removed from life in the Navy.
In order to play the game, ask your careers officer about POAC courses, (potentiol officer aircrew courses). I "baby sat" a few in my time and it was normally a 2 or 3 day visit to a Naval Air Station. You would get to stay in the Wardroom to see how the officers live, and more importantly visit many of the departments of the Air Station. They try to get you airbourne as much as possible and normally you would get a couple of flights at the very least. It has 2 great advantages. Firstly, it gives you a far better look at the job than any book or video can impart. Secondly it shows how diverse the tasks covered by the Navy are. They used to do all sorts of courses for aspiring officers. I did 2 that I can recall, including a leadership course that was a week long (big help for the AIB).
Dig as deep as you can into both the civil and military routes as it could be the biggest decision you ever make.
PM me if you want and I will help as much as I can.
Regards
Obs cop.
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Military To Atpl(h)
Can anyone PLEASE PLEASE provide helpful adivice as to what I would have to do to convert my 1500hrs military to an ATPL(H). I do not have enough hours for the briding package and I am beginning to throw my towel in with the CAA as they cannot give me a straight answer!
Thanks
Thanks
Have you looked in LASORS? See http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/f...sp?groupid=292 for the on-line version (in .pdf format).
Regrettably, as you don't meet the full accreditation hours totals, you won't receive much ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge credit.
To quote LASORS Section G4:
"There is no direct route to a JAR-FCL ATPL (H) for a QSP (H). In order to qualify for a JAR-FCL ATPL (H), applicants must qualify for an IR (H) and a type rating for a civil helicopter type certificated for a minimum of two pilots under IFR, or a helicopter type required to be operated by two pilots under JAR-OPS."
"For this reason, a QSP (H) will not qualify for a JAR-FCL ATPL (H) unless he completes an IR (H) in accordance with Section E, and an approved type rating course for an appropriate civil helicopter type, in accordance with Section F."
"Full details of the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) requirements, including credits available, are detailed in Section G3."
"A QSP (H) should refer to Section D6 for details of the requirements to obtain a JAR-FCL CPL (H)."
Wouldn't it be simpler, cheaper and quicker to go for a CPL(H) first?
Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
Regrettably, as you don't meet the full accreditation hours totals, you won't receive much ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge credit.
To quote LASORS Section G4:
"There is no direct route to a JAR-FCL ATPL (H) for a QSP (H). In order to qualify for a JAR-FCL ATPL (H), applicants must qualify for an IR (H) and a type rating for a civil helicopter type certificated for a minimum of two pilots under IFR, or a helicopter type required to be operated by two pilots under JAR-OPS."
"For this reason, a QSP (H) will not qualify for a JAR-FCL ATPL (H) unless he completes an IR (H) in accordance with Section E, and an approved type rating course for an appropriate civil helicopter type, in accordance with Section F."
"Full details of the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) requirements, including credits available, are detailed in Section G3."
"A QSP (H) should refer to Section D6 for details of the requirements to obtain a JAR-FCL CPL (H)."
Wouldn't it be simpler, cheaper and quicker to go for a CPL(H) first?
Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
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send an e-mail to [email protected] as he deals with mil-civ conversions.
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Ex Military Pilot- questions about civy flying
Hello, I'm 21 years old and recently chopped from RAF flying training just short of the wings stage/OCU stage. I've got about 250 fixed wing and rotary hours and have a few questions about joining the airlines or commercial flying world.
I appreciate that these may have been covered elsewhere but I can't really find the answers I’m looking for.
The questions I have are:
1) Can anyone give me a fairly simple breakdown of the hours/components required to fly for the airlines and the costs involved? I understand you need an ATPL, type rating etc but I’m not really sure how you get to that stage?
2) Are there any companies which offer full sponsorships and if not what is the cheapest I’m likely to get flying with? I've got around £10k saved up.
3) Would I be able to offset my military hours against what I need to get my license or would I have to start from scratch?
4) Are airlines likely to look favourably on me for having military training or badly for being chopped?
Any answers/advice will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
I appreciate that these may have been covered elsewhere but I can't really find the answers I’m looking for.
The questions I have are:
1) Can anyone give me a fairly simple breakdown of the hours/components required to fly for the airlines and the costs involved? I understand you need an ATPL, type rating etc but I’m not really sure how you get to that stage?
2) Are there any companies which offer full sponsorships and if not what is the cheapest I’m likely to get flying with? I've got around £10k saved up.
3) Would I be able to offset my military hours against what I need to get my license or would I have to start from scratch?
4) Are airlines likely to look favourably on me for having military training or badly for being chopped?
Any answers/advice will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers