Major pilot shortage.......apparently !!!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RTO, I've missed something here
- what ad?
- what lie?
all I've seen is an article written by a jorno. You know the old line of that profession "never let the facts spoil a good story".
Accusing a reputable training organisation of lies is going a bit far and appears, from where I'm standing, to be totally unjustified.
- what ad?
- what lie?
all I've seen is an article written by a jorno. You know the old line of that profession "never let the facts spoil a good story".
Accusing a reputable training organisation of lies is going a bit far and appears, from where I'm standing, to be totally unjustified.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then it appears, RTO, that you didn't see the original article. If you had, you would realise that Northern Highflyer was (no doubt inadvertently) inaccurate in stating that the article was "advertising" the CTC McAlpine Scheme. It was simply a piece in the Daily Express' careers section describing it. It did cast a favourable light on the scheme; however, it was not an advert. I'd be pretty amazed to see any training organisation able to afford a 3/4 page ad in a daily paper.
It is your right to disrespect CTC. However, I challenge your right to accuse them on a public forum of lying, especially when your own research is so obviously flawed
It is your right to disrespect CTC. However, I challenge your right to accuse them on a public forum of lying, especially when your own research is so obviously flawed
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fibod
You are right, I was wrong (inadvertantly) with the comment about it being an advert. In my defence however, If a paper is going to publish a career article then I think they should be fair to all. Why did they only mention CTC ? There are many FTO's out there offering excellent courses and training, granted they may not be offering the same package as CTC though.
It still seems to me that CTC was being pushed forward in the article and I am sure they have been swamped with enquiries from it.
The original intent behind the post was to highlight the fact that a national newspaper was claiming a shortage of experienced pilots in the near future, and that such a claim would only increase the jobs to pilot ratio. The way I read it made it sound oh so easy to become a shiny jet driver. Just pay your £160 selection fee and off to New Zealand for 2 years and you come back as an experienced pilot, all expenses paid. Skilled yes, experienced no, at least no more than any other fATPL holder.
Would doing a CTC course make those pilots any more experienced than the many wannabes on here doing the approved/modular route ?
I am not knocking CTC at all. I have only heard good things about them. The wording of the article by the journo was the point I was making.
Regards
NH
You are right, I was wrong (inadvertantly) with the comment about it being an advert. In my defence however, If a paper is going to publish a career article then I think they should be fair to all. Why did they only mention CTC ? There are many FTO's out there offering excellent courses and training, granted they may not be offering the same package as CTC though.
It still seems to me that CTC was being pushed forward in the article and I am sure they have been swamped with enquiries from it.
The original intent behind the post was to highlight the fact that a national newspaper was claiming a shortage of experienced pilots in the near future, and that such a claim would only increase the jobs to pilot ratio. The way I read it made it sound oh so easy to become a shiny jet driver. Just pay your £160 selection fee and off to New Zealand for 2 years and you come back as an experienced pilot, all expenses paid. Skilled yes, experienced no, at least no more than any other fATPL holder.
Would doing a CTC course make those pilots any more experienced than the many wannabes on here doing the approved/modular route ?
I am not knocking CTC at all. I have only heard good things about them. The wording of the article by the journo was the point I was making.
Regards
NH
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As per!
To me the only real answer is to only employ British born pilots first! Hard but fair yes I know but you try getting a job in SA or NZ or even Europe... Not a chance, but for the few, I work at LGW on the ground and every day I get on to aircraft flight decks to hand over loadsheets and all I bloody here are non Brit pilots who drink our beer shag our birds and fly our airframes...
I hate them all
So only employ brits and this place would be better off.
Speedjeans Mr very bloody angry!
I hate them all
So only employ brits and this place would be better off.
Speedjeans Mr very bloody angry!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
My passport is a UK one. My licence (ATPL) is a JAR one. My accent is an Aussie one.
No, don't intend to shag the birds, you're safe there. I'll drink your beer though.
No, don't intend to shag the birds, you're safe there. I'll drink your beer though.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Right Here.
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Idea.
Yes, Jolly good show old boy.
While youre there, old bean, why not kick out all those Johnny foreigners in the Premiership league? Lets give the British Wannabe footballers a crack at the big time.
Not interested in your beer or women, just your jobs. Thanks.
NAFA.
MAX
While youre there, old bean, why not kick out all those Johnny foreigners in the Premiership league? Lets give the British Wannabe footballers a crack at the big time. Not interested in your beer or women, just your jobs. Thanks.
NAFA.
MAX
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speejeans
I suppose this should have applied to you when you tried to get a job in Tanzania. Remind me why it didn't work out ? I mean I don't remember it to be because they were only employing locals. Indeed, you even ended up flying for a little while, what happened then ?
Then again when you came back you were very happy to find a Frenchman (me) who tried to help you and who even got you an interview for the Caravan job I held at the time.
Nice one.
I suppose this should have applied to you when you tried to get a job in Tanzania. Remind me why it didn't work out ? I mean I don't remember it to be because they were only employing locals. Indeed, you even ended up flying for a little while, what happened then ?
Then again when you came back you were very happy to find a Frenchman (me) who tried to help you and who even got you an interview for the Caravan job I held at the time.
Nice one.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speedjeans (interesting name; failed RAF selection perhaps?) grow up and shut up. As an EU citizen, you can work anywhere within the 15 (soon to be 25) nations of the EU - and they can live and work here. Foreign nationals with British parents (and sometimes grandparents) can have dual-nationality and can choose which of the two nations they live and work in - as could you if the situation were reversed. As a Brit, with a full JAA ATPL and some experience, you can work as an expat in any one of many countries, and many do.
These are facts - and long established ones. They are brought about by political agreements over many years - not the CAA or airlines - and will not cease just because you don't like it. If you feel that these arrangements are inequitable, and have evidence to back up your claims, take your case to your MP - or try and become an MP yourself (British National Party, perhaps?) and try and change things from the inside of politics. Posts like your last one will attract nothing but the contempt of those more positive, pro-active, and tolerant than you.
Scroggs
These are facts - and long established ones. They are brought about by political agreements over many years - not the CAA or airlines - and will not cease just because you don't like it. If you feel that these arrangements are inequitable, and have evidence to back up your claims, take your case to your MP - or try and become an MP yourself (British National Party, perhaps?) and try and change things from the inside of politics. Posts like your last one will attract nothing but the contempt of those more positive, pro-active, and tolerant than you.
Scroggs
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HI PP
Not bad thanks but I must be doing something wrong because every flight I go on we lose an engine, Hydraulics, Electrics, Flaps or there is a fire of some sort. Seems to be happening every time I press a switch
.... perhaps something to do with my fat fingers, unless you know any better ?
How's the 160 T lady treating you these days ? Her slim sister and I, will hopefully get on very well together in just a pair of weeks now.
See you soon.
Not bad thanks but I must be doing something wrong because every flight I go on we lose an engine, Hydraulics, Electrics, Flaps or there is a fire of some sort. Seems to be happening every time I press a switch
.... perhaps something to do with my fat fingers, unless you know any better ?How's the 160 T lady treating you these days ? Her slim sister and I, will hopefully get on very well together in just a pair of weeks now.
See you soon.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Egcc
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glad to say it doesn't happen quite as often on the line...........yes the fat lady sings beautifully, however her extra weight is noticeable when you try to manoeuvre her into a new position! She needs a handful rather than a featherlight touch to get her up to speed again.....and her wobbly bits dangle the other way which is surprisingly noticeable on touchdown!
See you on the line.
PP
ps Sorry for the off topic chat. First offence M'lud, must mean a slightly reduced sentance?
See you on the line.
PP
ps Sorry for the off topic chat. First offence M'lud, must mean a slightly reduced sentance?
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The last reply
Scroggs
Dear all,
While you are all free to tell me what you think, this is what I have to say. I have had my licence 3 yeras now and can't get a sniff at a job, and when I hear pilots from other countrys talk about how they are bringing their friends over to work here when me and a few of my friends have sent CV's off to EU state member countrys and heve been rejected either because we have not lived in the country for 5 years or more or do not speak the lingo, then i get a bit miffed!
Indeed pilots from other countrys have said don't bother sending a CV ot xyz because you are not a national, but it is OK for them to come over here!
I find it all very unfair even some of the pilots I have met who come form NZ said that they have used the grandparent thing just so they can get a job build up some time and then go home... This goes for some of the Dutch pilots who have come over here and got jobs and then gone off and got jobs for KLM or whoever while the are loads of Brit pilots who would give there right arm for even just a interview..
Sorry if I sound bitter I would just Like to see things fair...
Speedjeans (Still Mr bloody angry)
Dear all,
While you are all free to tell me what you think, this is what I have to say. I have had my licence 3 yeras now and can't get a sniff at a job, and when I hear pilots from other countrys talk about how they are bringing their friends over to work here when me and a few of my friends have sent CV's off to EU state member countrys and heve been rejected either because we have not lived in the country for 5 years or more or do not speak the lingo, then i get a bit miffed!
Indeed pilots from other countrys have said don't bother sending a CV ot xyz because you are not a national, but it is OK for them to come over here!
I find it all very unfair even some of the pilots I have met who come form NZ said that they have used the grandparent thing just so they can get a job build up some time and then go home... This goes for some of the Dutch pilots who have come over here and got jobs and then gone off and got jobs for KLM or whoever while the are loads of Brit pilots who would give there right arm for even just a interview..
Sorry if I sound bitter I would just Like to see things fair...
Speedjeans (Still Mr bloody angry)
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Tell me Mr Speedjeans,
Are you going to stay in the first job you get for the rest of your flying career? No? So what's the difference in someone coming over here (and it's not a cheap OR easy move) that already has a lot of time (that they have got by getting of their arse and getting a job - ANYWHERE) gaining some more experience and moving on? Does it make a difference if they move on to another company here in the UK or back south? No, it makes absolutely no difference to that company.
Most larger companies expect at least 3 years return of service. Believe me, it's going to take more than 3 years to pay back the cost of shifting here.
Judging by what my good friend Amex has said, you've had some opportunities and assistance by so called foreigners and you haven't capitalised on it. Poor you.
I take my hat off to Amex, he hasn't had an easy run at it and the success he's enjoying right now is because he worked very hard for it and has done what you need to do in this industry to survive! Also, English isn't his first language. Even more respect.
Aviation is not an easy industry to break into, let alone stay in. It's never easy getting a job. However, dummy spitting will not help you succeed.
Are you going to stay in the first job you get for the rest of your flying career? No? So what's the difference in someone coming over here (and it's not a cheap OR easy move) that already has a lot of time (that they have got by getting of their arse and getting a job - ANYWHERE) gaining some more experience and moving on? Does it make a difference if they move on to another company here in the UK or back south? No, it makes absolutely no difference to that company.
Most larger companies expect at least 3 years return of service. Believe me, it's going to take more than 3 years to pay back the cost of shifting here.
Judging by what my good friend Amex has said, you've had some opportunities and assistance by so called foreigners and you haven't capitalised on it. Poor you.
I take my hat off to Amex, he hasn't had an easy run at it and the success he's enjoying right now is because he worked very hard for it and has done what you need to do in this industry to survive! Also, English isn't his first language. Even more respect.
Aviation is not an easy industry to break into, let alone stay in. It's never easy getting a job. However, dummy spitting will not help you succeed.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: West London
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SJ
Unfortunately the fact that you are not bright enough to understand the issues is reflected in your ability to gain employment. I hope you stick to your guns and refuse employment with any of those airlines that you feel you might be stepping on the jobs of the local nationals.
That would rule out emplyment for you in at least the following:
US airways, Qantas, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Dragon air, Gulf air, Qatar airways, Emirates, Air China, Korean Air, Air New Zealand, Swiss, Aer Lingus, Ryanair, KLM cityhopper, Air europe (Italy), DHL, Virgin Express, Royal Brunei....
This argument has gone on before with others who at least had considered the issues in more depth than you it seems are able. Perhaps its time to log off and start thinking? What would happen if all the UK pilots working abroad where to return? Then were would you be?
Go and get yourself an education, shut your mouth and learn from those who have gone before you.
Captain NG
Unfortunately the fact that you are not bright enough to understand the issues is reflected in your ability to gain employment. I hope you stick to your guns and refuse employment with any of those airlines that you feel you might be stepping on the jobs of the local nationals.
That would rule out emplyment for you in at least the following:
US airways, Qantas, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Dragon air, Gulf air, Qatar airways, Emirates, Air China, Korean Air, Air New Zealand, Swiss, Aer Lingus, Ryanair, KLM cityhopper, Air europe (Italy), DHL, Virgin Express, Royal Brunei....
This argument has gone on before with others who at least had considered the issues in more depth than you it seems are able. Perhaps its time to log off and start thinking? What would happen if all the UK pilots working abroad where to return? Then were would you be?
Go and get yourself an education, shut your mouth and learn from those who have gone before you.
Captain NG
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Emirates Living - The Meadows
Age: 79
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speedjeans,
It is more than likely that the replies you have made on this thread, as hinted at by other people earlier are the very reason why you have as yet not found a job.
Maybe if you stopped belating about foreign nationals and got of your arse and changed/improved your cv then you would have a job.
You xenophobically state that you can't get a job in some of the countries because you can't speak the lingo. If you can't be bothered to learn the lingo then you don't deserve the job.
I would take any job anywhere in the world on any type of aircraft and learn any language required to get a job.
If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. The world doesn't owe you a living if you don't put the effort in to change your situation then you deserve to be where you are.
VT
It is more than likely that the replies you have made on this thread, as hinted at by other people earlier are the very reason why you have as yet not found a job.
Maybe if you stopped belating about foreign nationals and got of your arse and changed/improved your cv then you would have a job.
You xenophobically state that you can't get a job in some of the countries because you can't speak the lingo. If you can't be bothered to learn the lingo then you don't deserve the job.
I would take any job anywhere in the world on any type of aircraft and learn any language required to get a job.
If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. The world doesn't owe you a living if you don't put the effort in to change your situation then you deserve to be where you are.
VT
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speedjeans,
Most pilots speak english. If I ever do get my f-ATPL I'm sure I'll be sending a few CVs over to the UK. I'll try to learn french and spanish and send them over to french speaking countries and Spain... That's just the way it works. Knowing the local language is important. The fact that most pilots know english might be tough for the local UK pilots cos everyone sends resumes that way. That's just the way it is. If you don't know foreign languages, then learn french or german. That'll look good on a CV sent to Austria, Germany or Belgium for example. If you do know these languages, then keep sending those CVs out...
Most pilots speak english. If I ever do get my f-ATPL I'm sure I'll be sending a few CVs over to the UK. I'll try to learn french and spanish and send them over to french speaking countries and Spain... That's just the way it works. Knowing the local language is important. The fact that most pilots know english might be tough for the local UK pilots cos everyone sends resumes that way. That's just the way it is. If you don't know foreign languages, then learn french or german. That'll look good on a CV sent to Austria, Germany or Belgium for example. If you do know these languages, then keep sending those CVs out...
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
Hey Speedjeans ...
I wonder if there would have been so much complaining out of the likes of people like you when my grandfather and his brothers were flying around Britain 60 years ago?
A couple of them are still there in fact, lying in some churchyards in Wiltshire.
Looks to me like there is a good reason why you can't get an airline job, and it's got nothing to do with foreign job thieves
I wonder if there would have been so much complaining out of the likes of people like you when my grandfather and his brothers were flying around Britain 60 years ago?
A couple of them are still there in fact, lying in some churchyards in Wiltshire.
Looks to me like there is a good reason why you can't get an airline job, and it's got nothing to do with foreign job thieves
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
Posts: 503
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said all.
I have a great mate (Kiwi) who studied the JAR ATPL ground school on the same course as me. He's LHS for eJ now, and in spite of that he's really a top bloke, and would do anything for you. So Speedjeans, it's really about people, not accents, be a nice person (if you can) and you'll get on.
BTW AMEX great to hear about your progress, any chance of fixing an interview for me to fly the Caravan (or the Chieften for that matter!!!! )
I have a great mate (Kiwi) who studied the JAR ATPL ground school on the same course as me. He's LHS for eJ now, and in spite of that
he's really a top bloke, and would do anything for you. So Speedjeans, it's really about people, not accents, be a nice person (if you can) and you'll get on.BTW AMEX great to hear about your progress, any chance of fixing an interview for me to fly the Caravan (or the Chieften for that matter!!!!
)