Is now a good time to start training?
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After reading all this I also have a big decision to make. I am currently working as cabin crew and have wanted to fly commercially for a while now. Financing the whole thing has seemed impossible and I have almost completed my ppl after spending what savings I had! I am 26 now and am concerned that in the current climate I could face being in debt and unemployed in my dream job for many years to come. After visiting a well known training school last week I was determined to take the plunge and borrow the money left right and centre for their 'new' integrated course....however, some interesting points have been raised here about pilots who graduated from their courses and cant find jobs. I am undecided[again!]
Does anyone have any facts about the modular route and whether airlines tend to disregard this type of training in favour of integrated courses?
Thanks
Does anyone have any facts about the modular route and whether airlines tend to disregard this type of training in favour of integrated courses?
Thanks
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FFF
We're both saying the same thing, really, which is: don't give up the day job! In your example, your friend wants to drive his Ferrari for fun, and why not? In mine, my friend is relying on the Jaguar to pay his bills; that would be stupid. The point is, if you want to fly for fun, go ahead. If you want to undergo modular commercial training while keeping the day job, that's OK too (but accept that you may never get your money back). If you need flying to pay your bills, forget it for now.
Anyone who turns down gainful employment to pursue an integrated course right now is probably certifiable. Doing a modular course while retaining your job is more sensible, though a lot less so than it was even a couple of months ago. There is no reason why anyone has to commit to training right now, and a great many reasons why they shouldn't. Just put things on hold; that doesn't mean giving up your dream.
As WWW says, your chances of employment, as a percentage of those who begin training, are very small just at the moment, and may take a long time to improve. Economically, this is a crap time for lots of industries and aviation tends to get hit harder than most. After all, if you're running a struggling business it's easy to reduce your company's air travel budget. At the same time, you may freeze pay and 'right-size' by getting rid of a number of employees. How many - employed or unemployed - of those folks are going to blow spare cash on an unnecessary holiday or weekend break? Air travel is still an expendable luxury for most, and is among the first savings that companies and individuals make. The UK stockmarket is approaching an 8-year low (it's around 3350 as I write); corporate spending is gong to get squeezed even more than it has been. If you're in IT, you'll know that well! On top of that, the oil price is very high at the moment and less likely to reduce quickly than it did during (even before) the last Gulf War. That will hurt us badly!
This is not the time to 'invest' lots of dosh in commercial flying training; hold fast and watch for a while - and spend some money on some fun flying.
Scroggs
Wannabes/Virgin Moderator
[email protected]
We're both saying the same thing, really, which is: don't give up the day job! In your example, your friend wants to drive his Ferrari for fun, and why not? In mine, my friend is relying on the Jaguar to pay his bills; that would be stupid. The point is, if you want to fly for fun, go ahead. If you want to undergo modular commercial training while keeping the day job, that's OK too (but accept that you may never get your money back). If you need flying to pay your bills, forget it for now.
Anyone who turns down gainful employment to pursue an integrated course right now is probably certifiable. Doing a modular course while retaining your job is more sensible, though a lot less so than it was even a couple of months ago. There is no reason why anyone has to commit to training right now, and a great many reasons why they shouldn't. Just put things on hold; that doesn't mean giving up your dream.
As WWW says, your chances of employment, as a percentage of those who begin training, are very small just at the moment, and may take a long time to improve. Economically, this is a crap time for lots of industries and aviation tends to get hit harder than most. After all, if you're running a struggling business it's easy to reduce your company's air travel budget. At the same time, you may freeze pay and 'right-size' by getting rid of a number of employees. How many - employed or unemployed - of those folks are going to blow spare cash on an unnecessary holiday or weekend break? Air travel is still an expendable luxury for most, and is among the first savings that companies and individuals make. The UK stockmarket is approaching an 8-year low (it's around 3350 as I write); corporate spending is gong to get squeezed even more than it has been. If you're in IT, you'll know that well! On top of that, the oil price is very high at the moment and less likely to reduce quickly than it did during (even before) the last Gulf War. That will hurt us badly!
This is not the time to 'invest' lots of dosh in commercial flying training; hold fast and watch for a while - and spend some money on some fun flying.
Scroggs
Wannabes/Virgin Moderator
[email protected]
Last edited by scroggs; 12th Mar 2003 at 13:24.
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piper1,
After talking to a couple of Chief Pilot types, it is my understanding that *in general* it makes very little difference how and where you got your licence. As long as you have a JAA CPL/IR (with ATPL exam credits) and an MCC certificate, you are just as qualified as the next guy.
The myth that having Flying School X on your cv makes a difference when it comes to applying for jobs, is one that has generally been created by flying school marketing people.
The licence you hold is the same, whether it is gained via the modular route or integrated. You will have been examined to the same exacting standards as laid down by the authorities.
Getting that first job is more about having a good network of people on the inside of airlines, the right attitude and personality and more often than not a huge chunk of good fortune.
Take it from me, it is not much fun to have spent a fair wedge of cash and a significant amount of time away from home gaining professional qualifications only to see the markets change quite literally overnight. This leaves you with little more than an empty bank account, a wee blue book and some good memories. Unfortunately none of these things put food on the table or buy the kids new shoes.
You MUST go into this project with you eyes wide open. Smash the rose coloured specs and treat with great scepticism any news of impending hiring, especially if it comes from a marketing guy in a flying school. Times are going to be rough for aviation in the coming months. I wouldn't take such a gamble with such a large amount of cash right now.
Don't forget, you are spending money to gain professional qualifications so you can earn a living. Treat this as a business decision, not as a game. Following a dream is all very well but there is a cold hard reality once you wake up.
After talking to a couple of Chief Pilot types, it is my understanding that *in general* it makes very little difference how and where you got your licence. As long as you have a JAA CPL/IR (with ATPL exam credits) and an MCC certificate, you are just as qualified as the next guy.
The myth that having Flying School X on your cv makes a difference when it comes to applying for jobs, is one that has generally been created by flying school marketing people.
The licence you hold is the same, whether it is gained via the modular route or integrated. You will have been examined to the same exacting standards as laid down by the authorities.
Getting that first job is more about having a good network of people on the inside of airlines, the right attitude and personality and more often than not a huge chunk of good fortune.
Take it from me, it is not much fun to have spent a fair wedge of cash and a significant amount of time away from home gaining professional qualifications only to see the markets change quite literally overnight. This leaves you with little more than an empty bank account, a wee blue book and some good memories. Unfortunately none of these things put food on the table or buy the kids new shoes.
You MUST go into this project with you eyes wide open. Smash the rose coloured specs and treat with great scepticism any news of impending hiring, especially if it comes from a marketing guy in a flying school. Times are going to be rough for aviation in the coming months. I wouldn't take such a gamble with such a large amount of cash right now.
Don't forget, you are spending money to gain professional qualifications so you can earn a living. Treat this as a business decision, not as a game. Following a dream is all very well but there is a cold hard reality once you wake up.
I say there boy
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WWW,
I completely agree with your post, I just disagree slightly with one of your figures - the CAA's own stats say that 300-400 IRs per year were issued to professional licence holders by the UK CAA in the late 1990s.
The first two years of JAR have seen this number drop to c. 150 per year!
Either the CAA's stats are wrong (which I'm not ruling out) or the number of new CPL/IRs is less than you think.
(of course this excludes overseas-trained JAR licence holders, and BAe's move to Jerez is maybe a factor?)
cheers!
foggy.
I completely agree with your post, I just disagree slightly with one of your figures - the CAA's own stats say that 300-400 IRs per year were issued to professional licence holders by the UK CAA in the late 1990s.
The first two years of JAR have seen this number drop to c. 150 per year!
Either the CAA's stats are wrong (which I'm not ruling out) or the number of new CPL/IRs is less than you think.
(of course this excludes overseas-trained JAR licence holders, and BAe's move to Jerez is maybe a factor?)
cheers!
foggy.
The ONLY West Bromwich Albion Season Ticket Holder
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For the last year or so I have very slowly started doing my PPL, whilst continuing in my IT job.
Times change and the IT job goes towards the end of the year but with a generous pay-off. My first thought was to blow the lot on getting all the required training to get me to interviews for the RHS of commericals.
But, common sense has prevailed and I have agreed with the missus that I will use a bit of the money to get my PPL, IR, IMC and build some hours then take the ATPL ground school (in my spare time), whilst working in a new IT job.
After I have all the PPL qualifications I will review how the market is. If it doesn't look to bad I will do the ATPL and then review again. And so on...
Basically, take it one step at a time and don't take too many risks.
Times change and the IT job goes towards the end of the year but with a generous pay-off. My first thought was to blow the lot on getting all the required training to get me to interviews for the RHS of commericals.
But, common sense has prevailed and I have agreed with the missus that I will use a bit of the money to get my PPL, IR, IMC and build some hours then take the ATPL ground school (in my spare time), whilst working in a new IT job.
After I have all the PPL qualifications I will review how the market is. If it doesn't look to bad I will do the ATPL and then review again. And so on...
Basically, take it one step at a time and don't take too many risks.
Foghorn - I am not sure about the CAA figures. They seem far too low and I wonder about their definitions.
If you say OATS has 200 students, Cabair 150 & BAE 120 you bust their figures without touching the smaller schools.
Regardless it is a fact that a signigicant number of job seekers in the UK market have trained outside of the UK CAA remit. Both eaysJet and Ryanair were taking substantial courses of cadets coming from Holland and the Netherlands in recent years.
With something like 8 CAA examiners working full time on IRTs at the rate of 2 a day for only 140 days a year you are looking at over 2000 available IRT slots a year... Allowing for fails and partials the back of a fag packet calculations suggest there must be a lot more than <200 people taking IR's lately. Or else being a CAA examiner is a cushy number!
WWW
If you say OATS has 200 students, Cabair 150 & BAE 120 you bust their figures without touching the smaller schools.
Regardless it is a fact that a signigicant number of job seekers in the UK market have trained outside of the UK CAA remit. Both eaysJet and Ryanair were taking substantial courses of cadets coming from Holland and the Netherlands in recent years.
With something like 8 CAA examiners working full time on IRTs at the rate of 2 a day for only 140 days a year you are looking at over 2000 available IRT slots a year... Allowing for fails and partials the back of a fag packet calculations suggest there must be a lot more than <200 people taking IR's lately. Or else being a CAA examiner is a cushy number!
WWW
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JOB at 35 years old???
Has anyone out there trained as a pilot and graduated at 35 or older and got a job for an airline, or does anybody know anybody who got a job and was over 35 or does anybody know anybody who knows someone who........
you know what I mean- would be interested to hear of anyone who actually achieved this and their story.....
cheers
you know what I mean- would be interested to hear of anyone who actually achieved this and their story.....
cheers
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Also don't forget that a large portion of recent Cabair students have been training for non-european markets, and I bet Oxford have a bunch of non-JAA jobseekers as well.
Difficult to trust any of these figures. Administer with appropriate amount of sodium cloride.
abracadabra
Difficult to trust any of these figures. Administer with appropriate amount of sodium cloride.
abracadabra
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I have heard of a few pilots getting jobs in their mid/late thirties but, as you'll no doubt pick up from simliar threads on this subject, your age will be taken into account when two equally suitable applicants are being considered. Completing your training at this stage does put you into competition with ex miltary pilots of the same age with loads of hours, but when times are good they seem to get snapped up by the big boys. I know of a guy in his mid-forties recently hired by a cargo operator, though he did have 1000+ hours, and another 38 year old low hours guy get a job on a t/prop.
Being in a similar age-group myself and halfway to a f/ATPL, I've been concerned about this issue as well. I've attended the last couple of BALPA employment conferences to try and gauge opinion direct from the airlines. The general theme from regional/low cost/cargo operators was that while they had min requirements on hours/age/experience etc. the bottom line was that if they liked you, you'd have a chance. One said they actively looked for applicants who'd 'grown up a bit' and got some life experience, while another regional airline said they wouldn't consider anyone who'd hit 40 and only had 250 hrs.
Like applying for any job you're in competition with others and given apparent over supply of trained pilots in the UK, it seems a you need a type rating + experience at the moment to get a sniff of a job, never mind being the 'right' age. People better qualified than me are of the opinion that the market will eventually pick up, but who knows when? When that does happen airlines will be forced to lower their sightss on age & experience but will still look for people who they feel they can fly with and get through a type rating, cost effectively.
But, if you're like many people I know (myself included), you probably won't be able to resist the urge to start training no matter how bad the prospects appear!
Best advice I could give would be to speak to as many people as possible in the industry and come to your own conclusions.
SJ
Being in a similar age-group myself and halfway to a f/ATPL, I've been concerned about this issue as well. I've attended the last couple of BALPA employment conferences to try and gauge opinion direct from the airlines. The general theme from regional/low cost/cargo operators was that while they had min requirements on hours/age/experience etc. the bottom line was that if they liked you, you'd have a chance. One said they actively looked for applicants who'd 'grown up a bit' and got some life experience, while another regional airline said they wouldn't consider anyone who'd hit 40 and only had 250 hrs.
Like applying for any job you're in competition with others and given apparent over supply of trained pilots in the UK, it seems a you need a type rating + experience at the moment to get a sniff of a job, never mind being the 'right' age. People better qualified than me are of the opinion that the market will eventually pick up, but who knows when? When that does happen airlines will be forced to lower their sightss on age & experience but will still look for people who they feel they can fly with and get through a type rating, cost effectively.
But, if you're like many people I know (myself included), you probably won't be able to resist the urge to start training no matter how bad the prospects appear!
Best advice I could give would be to speak to as many people as possible in the industry and come to your own conclusions.
SJ
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It's a tricky one the age v experience thing and when to start training.
Arguments for young and old(ish) both have valid points yet I can't help wondering why with all these experienced pilots looking for work did DHL recently ask for 10 low houred guys ?
I heard they couldn't get any 757 type rated people. If this is true in the current climate then there is a small, even microscopic light at the end of the tunnel.
Reido
I know of 2 guys who got RHS jobs in their forties. One was a few years ago now (on cargo) and the other was last November on t/props. Not sure what their hours were at the time though.
Arguments for young and old(ish) both have valid points yet I can't help wondering why with all these experienced pilots looking for work did DHL recently ask for 10 low houred guys ?
I heard they couldn't get any 757 type rated people. If this is true in the current climate then there is a small, even microscopic light at the end of the tunnel.
Reido
I know of 2 guys who got RHS jobs in their forties. One was a few years ago now (on cargo) and the other was last November on t/props. Not sure what their hours were at the time though.
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RE: Number of IR's issued.
Considering the increase in cost and (relatively speaking) difficulty of gaining professional qualifications, I would not be surprised if the number of IR's issued is in the 150-200 range. 800 CPL/IR's per year seems a touch on the high side though. There may well be >2000 slots available for Exam callsign flights but how many are wx'ed out, unused or utilised for PPL/IR's, resits and renewals? We can only guess at the number.
The big schools have also had a history of hosting students from North Africa, the Middle East and the Far East, so it could be that those students "skew" the perception of more CPL/IR's being issued in the UK for european based pilots.
As for Easy and Ryan taking cadets coming from "Holland and the Netherlands" (thats the same place Andy
), many have been based in the Netherlands and Belgium anyway, so that *may* not have had as big an effect on UK hiring as we might think.
Anyway since a JAA licence is valid in many European countries, why not learn a Johnny Foriegner language and look further afield? If nothing is happening in the coming months recruiting-wise, it cant do any harm to enrole in a night class to learn German/Italian/French/Spanish or whatever. At least it keeps the mind working and looks good on the cv.
The other thing to consider is once you have your CPL/IR the cost of keeping current as well as servicing your loan could become prohibitive, keep that in mind as well.
The big schools have also had a history of hosting students from North Africa, the Middle East and the Far East, so it could be that those students "skew" the perception of more CPL/IR's being issued in the UK for european based pilots.
As for Easy and Ryan taking cadets coming from "Holland and the Netherlands" (thats the same place Andy
), many have been based in the Netherlands and Belgium anyway, so that *may* not have had as big an effect on UK hiring as we might think. Anyway since a JAA licence is valid in many European countries, why not learn a Johnny Foriegner language and look further afield? If nothing is happening in the coming months recruiting-wise, it cant do any harm to enrole in a night class to learn German/Italian/French/Spanish or whatever. At least it keeps the mind working and looks good on the cv.
The other thing to consider is once you have your CPL/IR the cost of keeping current as well as servicing your loan could become prohibitive, keep that in mind as well.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 13th Mar 2003 at 15:55.
I never said there was anything wrong with cross border hiring of just trained pilots. Indeed OATS and the like do contain foreign students who will return home.
But <200 new IR's a year just doesn't feel right to me.
Here is a list of schools who do IR training according to the CAA:
Aeros Flying Club
International Flight Training Academy
Airways Flight Training -Exeter
JD Aviation
Atlantic Flight Training (Coventry and Sandford)
Leeds Flying School
Bonus Aviation Limited
Multiflight Limited
Bournemouth Flying School
Oxford Aviation Training
Bristol Flying Centre Limited
Professional Air Training
Cabair College of Air Training
Ravenair
Carill Aviation
Redhill Aviation
Comed Flight Training
Southend Flying Club
European Flight Training Llc
Stapleford Flight Centre
Cabair
BAE Systems
West Michigan
European Pilot Training Academy
Tayflite Limited
The Examiner Training Agency
Triple A Flying Limited
The Flight Centre
Walkbury Flying Club
Flight Simulation
Westflight Aviation
Humber Flying Club
Wycombe Air Centre
So 33 schools. I know BAE look towards graduating a course a month of 10 at least so thats 120. Cabair is about the same size and OATS is bigger.
Many of the other smaller FTO's such as PAT, Bristol, Tayflite and Multiflight I know are very busy. I am sure many of the others are although some will hardly do any training whilst remaining licensed to do so.
Which makes me suspect the CAA figures as published on IR issues.
Cheers,
WWW
ps as an aiside I just read this months BALPA employment news - there were actually quite a few leads there and it was not the doom and gloom one might of feared.
But <200 new IR's a year just doesn't feel right to me.
Here is a list of schools who do IR training according to the CAA:
Aeros Flying Club
International Flight Training Academy
Airways Flight Training -Exeter
JD Aviation
Atlantic Flight Training (Coventry and Sandford)
Leeds Flying School
Bonus Aviation Limited
Multiflight Limited
Bournemouth Flying School
Oxford Aviation Training
Bristol Flying Centre Limited
Professional Air Training
Cabair College of Air Training
Ravenair
Carill Aviation
Redhill Aviation
Comed Flight Training
Southend Flying Club
European Flight Training Llc
Stapleford Flight Centre
Cabair
BAE Systems
West Michigan
European Pilot Training Academy
Tayflite Limited
The Examiner Training Agency
Triple A Flying Limited
The Flight Centre
Walkbury Flying Club
Flight Simulation
Westflight Aviation
Humber Flying Club
Wycombe Air Centre
So 33 schools. I know BAE look towards graduating a course a month of 10 at least so thats 120. Cabair is about the same size and OATS is bigger.
Many of the other smaller FTO's such as PAT, Bristol, Tayflite and Multiflight I know are very busy. I am sure many of the others are although some will hardly do any training whilst remaining licensed to do so.
Which makes me suspect the CAA figures as published on IR issues.
Cheers,
WWW
ps as an aiside I just read this months BALPA employment news - there were actually quite a few leads there and it was not the doom and gloom one might of feared.
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flyingforfun ,
the situation with JAR fATPL is more like :
A mate of yours is a hard-working IT specialist of, say, 30 years old, earning a solid £35K annually. He's a car enthusiast, but he's got wife, kids and mortgage, so his Mondeo is going to have to crack on for a few more years yet. But a Ferrari dealer has a beautiful 355 for sale. The arrogant salesman tells him it costs 50k and he will have to wait three years and do a bit of work on it to get it at that price.
he gets a loan from the bank, works hard at it for three long years and when he goes to get his ferrari after three years, it has vanished. The crook salesman has lied to him : he forgot to tell him that ferrari builds every year a very limited number of cars and that car was reserved for a very privileged someone else. In the meantime the salesman stole his money and your mate lost three years
i wont even speak of possible outcomes on his wife/mortgage/career.
as a sidenote, a real ferrari 355 is nice to drive, engine is impressive but inside the cockpit much is engineered by .. FIAT
the situation with JAR fATPL is more like :
A mate of yours is a hard-working IT specialist of, say, 30 years old, earning a solid £35K annually. He's a car enthusiast, but he's got wife, kids and mortgage, so his Mondeo is going to have to crack on for a few more years yet. But a Ferrari dealer has a beautiful 355 for sale. The arrogant salesman tells him it costs 50k and he will have to wait three years and do a bit of work on it to get it at that price.
he gets a loan from the bank, works hard at it for three long years and when he goes to get his ferrari after three years, it has vanished. The crook salesman has lied to him : he forgot to tell him that ferrari builds every year a very limited number of cars and that car was reserved for a very privileged someone else. In the meantime the salesman stole his money and your mate lost three years
i wont even speak of possible outcomes on his wife/mortgage/career.
as a sidenote, a real ferrari 355 is nice to drive, engine is impressive but inside the cockpit much is engineered by .. FIAT
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Think before you leap
A few points to bear in mind . Lets assume you have just completed your training and the magical blue book has just dropped onto the door mat along with the usual rejection letters . I suspect nobody really knows how many young men and women are out there waiting for their first flying job . Now lets move forward 12 months . You have not got a flying job nor have you been able to fly because you have been working in a crap low paid job ( because 'You are a commercial pilot you will be gone at the first sniff if a flying job .' ) and you have been paying off loans . Your IR has just expired along with your mepl and because of loans and poor pay you can't afford to revalidate . In the mean time how many more people have completed their CPL/IR's . They are current and you are not , who do you think is the more likely to get a job ? Getting the licence is only the start , you then have to remain in current flying practice ( standard airline question 'How many hours have you flown in the previous 6 months ?') and keep your ratings current . Revalidating an IR could cost another pile of dosh that you may not have . Sorry to be all doom and gloom but I wish you good luck .
