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Cadet Trying to Fund Training

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Cadet Trying to Fund Training

Old 14th Feb 2019, 19:08
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ireland
Posts: 14
Cadet Trying to Fund Training

Hi All,
In November 2018, I was accepted into Atlantic Flight Training Academy in Cork, Ireland and I'm due to start in April 2019.
The Course costs 80,000 Euros. I'm from Belfast and a few days ago, 9 different banks said no to giving me the loan in one afternoon. I'm 21 and work as a delivery driver full-time and my Mum works full time as well. The banks basically said it was down to "affordability" and my Mum and I don't have 80,000 upfront to hand over.

Would anyone know the best bank to try and speak to? Whether it's in Ireland or not, doesn't matter. Although I would like to avoid remortgaging our house.

Thanks!
Keano752 is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 20:01
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
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Originally Posted by Keano752 View Post
Hi All,
In November 2018, I was accepted into Atlantic Flight Training Academy in Cork, Ireland and I'm due to start in April 2019.
The Course costs 80,000 Euros. I'm from Belfast and a few days ago, 9 different banks said no to giving me the loan in one afternoon. I'm 21 and work as a delivery driver full-time and my Mum works full time as well. The banks basically said it was down to "affordability" and my Mum and I don't have 80,000 upfront to hand over.

Would anyone know the best bank to try and speak to? Whether it's in Ireland or not, doesn't matter. Although I would like to avoid remortgaging our house.

Thanks!
The issue I think you may have is that you’re 21 and asking for 80,000 Euros unsecured. If you were earning an enormous amount and had been for some time then that might be okay, but the problem is that by definition you going to have any income source cutoff once you start training. You can see why a bank might be uneasy. You’re interest rate would I imagine be very high given your risk and the repayments could literally be thousands a month because of that. It’s quite a niche request as far as a ‘normal’ bank is concerned so they are likely to be cautious.

The annoying thing, same for most people to be fair, is that if you can use a property as collateral and remortgage said house, or take out an additional loan against the property, then all of a sudden it becomes pretty simple. BBVA used to provide a loan this way which had a two year repayment window to allow you to train, they’ve sadly stopped doing them. Optimum Credit do partnerships with some schools UK way but not with AFTA yet. Again, this requires a property but is structured to allow you to train and then repay.

Other options do exist though, pay as you go part time so you can keep earning (modular) or cadet schemes that come with funding (Aer Lingus).

Do you know anyone else due to be starting with you? Can’t hurt to see what they’re doing as there may be some out-of-the box ideas you’ve not considered yet.
VariablePitchP is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 20:14
  #3 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ireland
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Originally Posted by VariablePitchP View Post


The issue I think you may have is that you’re 21 and asking for 80,000 Euros unsecured. If you were earning an enormous amount and had been for some time then that might be okay, but the problem is that by definition you going to have any income source cutoff once you start training. You can see why a bank might be uneasy. You’re interest rate would I imagine be very high given your risk and the repayments could literally be thousands a month because of that. It’s quite a niche request as far as a ‘normal’ bank is concerned so they are likely to be cautious.

The annoying thing, same for most people to be fair, is that if you can use a property as collateral and remortgage said house, or take out an additional loan against the property, then all of a sudden it becomes pretty simple. BBVA used to provide a loan this way which had a two year repayment window to allow you to train, they’ve sadly stopped doing them. Optimum Credit do partnerships with some schools UK way but not with AFTA yet. Again, this requires a property but is structured to allow you to train and then repay.

Other options do exist though, pay as you go part time so you can keep earning (modular) or cadet schemes that come with funding (Aer Lingus).

Do you know anyone else due to be starting with you? Can’t hurt to see what they’re doing as there may be some out-of-the box ideas you’ve not considered yet.
The school is going to put me in touch with other cadets once the deposit is paid but I'm just trying any idea that comes to mind. I do understand the reason behind the banks but it's just a shame really that you have to go to such lengths. Out-of-the-box ideas seem to be what I'm running on at the minute but surely something has got to give eventually with them lol. A few people did mention that the AIB banks in the south of Ireland might be helpful so going to take a trip down and speak with them.
Keano752 is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2019, 10:08
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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If I were you, I wouldn't put down any deposit until you know you can fund the whole course.

You say you are starting in April 2019, but you didn't mention if you have got your class 1 medical yet?

You are unfortunately in the same situation as every commercial pilot that has went before you, myself included. The reality is most people can't afford the integrated course, they have difficulty getting such a large sum of money together all at once and it forces them down the modular route to achieve their pilot licences. I started flying when I was 14, but I'll only just be commencing my CPL this year. You may have to accept that you have to take the modular route to achieving your CPL, it'll be longer and tougher, but in the course of it all you'll prove to yourself if you really want it or not.

AFTA, is a good school, I've considered them for my CPL and I also know someone who has been through their integrated course and is now at Ryanair, AFTA supported him well. However, don't be fooled by the Irish charm, remember they're still a business and they need to sell integrated courses in order to make money, don't be seduced by their sales pitch.

You will struggle to find anyone who will loan you 80k unsecured, I dare say it will be tough even trying to get a secured loan for that amount these days. HSBC used to do unsecured loans for flight training about 10 years ago before the 2008 crash and as already mentioned, BBVA used to do secured loans for flight training, but discontinued that product recently.

All the best, you will have some tough decisions to make soon, but if you really want to be a pilot you can and will get their eventually; with good old fashioned hard work and determination.

MP
MaverickPrime is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2019, 13:14
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Join Date: Jan 2018
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Originally Posted by MaverickPrime View Post
If I were you, I wouldn't put down any deposit until you know you can fund the whole course.

You say you are starting in April 2019, but you didn't mention if you have got your class 1 medical yet?

You are unfortunately in the same situation as every commercial pilot that has went before you, myself included. The reality is most people can't afford the integrated course, they have difficulty getting such a large sum of money together all at once and it forces them down the modular route to achieve their pilot licences. I started flying when I was 14, but I'll only just be commencing my CPL this year. You may have to accept that you have to take the modular route to achieving your CPL, it'll be longer and tougher, but in the course of it all you'll prove to yourself if you really want it or not.

AFTA, is a good school, I've considered them for my CPL and I also know someone who has been through their integrated course and is now at Ryanair, AFTA supported him well. However, don't be fooled by the Irish charm, remember they're still a business and they need to sell integrated courses in order to make money, don't be seduced by their sales pitch.

You will struggle to find anyone who will loan you 80k unsecured, I dare say it will be tough even trying to get a secured loan for that amount these days. HSBC used to do unsecured loans for flight training about 10 years ago before the 2008 crash and as already mentioned, BBVA used to do secured loans for flight training, but discontinued that product recently.

All the best, you will have some tough decisions to make soon, but if you really want to be a pilot you can and will get their eventually; with good old fashioned hard work and determination.

MP
Forgot to mention that I do have my medical.
It has been tough getting into pilot school to begin with, was told no by other schools before finally getting accepted. The Integrated course is what I want but you're not the first person to tell me Modular may be the best option for me and my situation. It is something I will have to consider and at the end of the day, I'm still going to get there in the end. I'm still going to see what I can do in regards to the integrated course, but we shall see. Modular training does seem to be getting more popular and I have seen that some airlines are looking more at modular students as well.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 20:30
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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If I were you I wouldn't be paying any deposit for a start if you don't have all the funds sorted, as said by MaverickPrime.

I did all my training modular, took me four years as I was working at the same time to help get the money, as well as taking out some loans. You are only 21, there is still plenty of time for you yet. I didn't start till I was 24, finished my MEIR/CPL in September, did my MCC/JOC and got two job offers within three months. I saved loads of cash going modular instead of going and spending loads on an integrated (which I could never afford to do and had no interest in putting my parents home on the line for slim chance of getting a job).

Modular still works for a lot of folk. I am not making any bad comments about the integrated route as it is a good way...if you can afford it.
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Old 16th Feb 2019, 00:11
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Go modular. I started at 24.
Banana Joe is online now  
Old 16th Feb 2019, 16:23
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 136
Realistically I doubt any bank will give you a loan for Euro 80K without some security such as , re-mortgage of house, a guarantor. The guarantor would have to vetted for his/her financial security and then accept liability for your huge debt.
PA28161 is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2019, 19:58
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Join Date: Feb 2019
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Can anyone give me the breakdown of going the modular route? Same position as OP! (Sorry to hijack thread!)
Tobias0501 is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2019, 22:38
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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PPL
Hour Building
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MCC
TRENT210 is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2019, 11:49
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Dreamland
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Few years back I was stuck at the same place as You are now..
No bank would give me a loan since I had no financial security. What I have done to make money over the course of 4 years I decided to become a Cabin Attendant for one of the ME companies, it was not easy but it was very much doable. Besides money I was also part of industry that i wanted to work for, this was a great example if I could handle the life in a suitcase away from home. Meanwhile working I also made quiet a few contacts that I am grateful to to this day and forever will be.
Another suggestion would be to take a look at modular schools that are cheaper.
Now cheaper does not always mean better, but for a little over half of what Your current school cots You could get a really good training on fairly new aircraft's in not so developed countries in Europe.

Kind Regards
blues11 is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2019, 02:06
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: From UK
Posts: 32
I'm sorry to say that no bank will give you an unsecured loan of 80,000 Euros in your situation. Even with a guarantor, unsecured loans don't loan that much.

You have very few choices.
- Remortgage your (I presume, mother's) home with all the risks that entails.
- Get a job/ better job and save as much money as possible over the next few years.
- Find a cheaper option - The modular path can be done for 40-50,000 Euros as people above have explained. This doesn't necessarily mean poor training if you go with a good provider.
- Find a sponsored programme like the Aer Lingus cadet programme.

I have chosen options 2 and 3 as they were the most realistic ones for me. Of course, some my see it as not ideal, but you have to do what you have to do.

Also, please don't pay a deposit until you are sure that you have the funding in place to take part in the programme. Every penny counts when you are training; and you shouldn't pay for things, realistically, you will not be able to take part in.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 12:10
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1) Never, never, never pay up for your whole flight training in advance.

2) See 1 above

Training schools like airlines struggle during a recession. Even reputable schools can tank pretty quickly. Pay for your training in tranches, in as small chunks as you can negotiate with the FTO.

Modular training was equally popular as integrated until the mid noughties when the balance tipped in favour of integrated, driven largely by what was at the time being sought by the airlines. The advantage for the airlines is that the training record comes all from one place and generally the airlines are working with a small number of FTOs which allows them to have a certain confidence in the consistency of training and cadet.

Are you better trained by virtue of following one route or another? No is the simple answer - I’ve flown with good/mediocre/not good cadets from modular/integrated/MPL backgrounds. It makes eff all difference.

Modular seemed to become less popular from maybe 2008-2017 but I have definitely noticed more guys from modular backgrounds showing up on the flight deck over the past 2 years or so. I am not sure whether that is due to a change of recruitment strategy or due to a shortage of integrated guys/girls or maybe a bit of both.

Aviation is a fickle industry - I would only go down the remortgage route if I was confident that I could afford the repayments whilst not employed as a pilot. The past 2-3 years have been a good time fo newly qualified pilots. We seem to be entering a consolidation phase with certain airlines going under so the supply of experienced crew will be loosening slightly which is makes the job of the newly qualified, inexperienced job hunter slightly tougher. Beyond the companies which have folded there are no shortage of large companies facing major financial hurdles Flybe/Norwegian/Croatian/Icelandair/WOW/Alitalia and even some previously bulletproof companies in the Middle East.

For ordinary individuals of ordinary means there is no risk free way of getting into the industry - if you are determined to get into the industry you have to take the leap at some stage. Just make sure you have a plan B that doesn’t involve declaring yourself bankrupt.

At 21 you are still plenty young enough to hold off for a few years to save up and even start chipping away at your PPL if you decide to go down the modular route whilst lining up your commercial licence in 2/3 years time.

My route was PPL (took 2 years whilst working a regular day job and squirrelling money away for the next bit of training) -> CPL MEIR -> regional FO -> regional capt -> airbus FO -> airbus capt. It took about 11 years from first flight in a Cessna to the LHS on the bus. I have enjoyed pretty much every bit of it along the way but I would say the most challenging bit and the bit I learned the most from was my first command on a TP.

The employment environment changes from one year to the next so there is a large amount of luck involved along the way in getting to your dream job. You need to be resilient to work through the times when through no fault of your own the opportunities to progress are few and far between. If you doggedly pursue it however you will get there in the end.

speedrestriction is online now  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 20:18
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Bristol
Age: 31
Posts: 12
They want 80,000 Euros up front? NO! NO! NO! as speedrestriction says above.

Too many people have had their fingers BADLY burned by paying large monies up front and then the school going bust. Ask anybody about Cabair in the UK.
Spidermann is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2019, 16:08
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: London
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Is accommodation and living expenses included in that 80k?
Smithy175 is offline  

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