King Air experience
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King Air experience
If you want to end up flying an airliner or a corporate jet, is there much value in flying a Beech King 200 for your first job? (given the opportunity? lets assume you are required to pay for type rating) or would it be better to hold off and wait for a potential opportunity funding a type rating with a jet operator? My gut instinct tells me go with the latter, especially as the market appears to be picking up more so than it has done in recent years - the gamble is the jet opportunity may never come... or may come many years down the line.
Initially its all about getting experience, beggars can't be choosers - but judging by the vast majority of advertised airline/jet positions at the moment, there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of value in King Air experience, correct me if I'm wrong. It appears that an experienced King Air pilot does not have an awful lot of opportunities for career progression.
I am sure its a great aircraft/great experience etc. but I wanted to try and evaluate and get some perspective on how this aircraft can affect your chances of future employment? Most operators (big or small) are asking for experience on +10 ton aircraft, multi crew experience etc. I know the King is operated multi crew in UK but its classified as single crew I believe.
It would concern me that you may get stuck on a King Air for quite some time if you start your career on this aircraft. Please correct me if I am wrong - I don't want to rub any King Air guys up the wrong way --- I would be more than happy to be wrong about this one. Just looking for advice
Any input much appreciated. Cheers
Initially its all about getting experience, beggars can't be choosers - but judging by the vast majority of advertised airline/jet positions at the moment, there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of value in King Air experience, correct me if I'm wrong. It appears that an experienced King Air pilot does not have an awful lot of opportunities for career progression.
I am sure its a great aircraft/great experience etc. but I wanted to try and evaluate and get some perspective on how this aircraft can affect your chances of future employment? Most operators (big or small) are asking for experience on +10 ton aircraft, multi crew experience etc. I know the King is operated multi crew in UK but its classified as single crew I believe.
It would concern me that you may get stuck on a King Air for quite some time if you start your career on this aircraft. Please correct me if I am wrong - I don't want to rub any King Air guys up the wrong way --- I would be more than happy to be wrong about this one. Just looking for advice
Any input much appreciated. Cheers
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King Air is a great aircraft, get a few hundred hours in that and you'll ace any potential airline sim that comes your way. Presumably you're flying it for a private or corporate owner so obviously if you want to end up going down the corporate road, then you're learning all the ways of the corporate pilot while flying the King Air, for your next job in a GV.
There is a potential issue with logging the time because as you say they're certified single crew in the UK. IIRC the CAA won't recognize it as total time for purpose of higher licence issue, unless you can provide some certificate of proof from the operator that you were in fact operating it multi crew? Can't remember the exact details because it's been a few years but hopefully someone with up to date information can get on here and give you the gen.
There is a potential issue with logging the time because as you say they're certified single crew in the UK. IIRC the CAA won't recognize it as total time for purpose of higher licence issue, unless you can provide some certificate of proof from the operator that you were in fact operating it multi crew? Can't remember the exact details because it's been a few years but hopefully someone with up to date information can get on here and give you the gen.
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Hi Gaz
I notice that you have posted on the Flybe recruitment thread, if you get the King Air job then keep your Flybe application updated with your King Air hours and you will find that your application soon rises to the top of the pile, they take a wide variety of people and having TP hours under your belt will do you the power of good.
If you don’t take the King Air job, there will be a long and very disorganised line of others (myself amongst them) who will happily take your place.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
I notice that you have posted on the Flybe recruitment thread, if you get the King Air job then keep your Flybe application updated with your King Air hours and you will find that your application soon rises to the top of the pile, they take a wide variety of people and having TP hours under your belt will do you the power of good.
If you don’t take the King Air job, there will be a long and very disorganised line of others (myself amongst them) who will happily take your place.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
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Thanks for the replies.
I had heard that the single crew can be an issue but I also heard that you can apply to the CAA and declare that you were operating multicrew which will therefore let you build hours toward the ATPL issue.
I do not have job offers or interviews for any operator at the moment - I finished training 6 weeks ago. I do have a king air contact who may be able to help but wanted to weigh up the potential opportunities. My thinking being:
I have a few friends who trained thru same route and schools as me who have all got jobs with Ryanair and Flybe within a year of finishing training.
As a scenario... If I self sponsored a TR on a king air it would cost approx 16K but possibly more. If Flybe were to one day call then that would be fantastic and no harm done.
However, doing a 16K TR on a king air puts me out of the picture for other jet operators like Ryanair who want a self funded TR - as there is no way I will be able to fund 2 TRs!
Anyway, like I said.. It's all speculation at the moment there are no offers. I was trying to plan ahead and be positive about getting a future opportunity.
Cheers
I had heard that the single crew can be an issue but I also heard that you can apply to the CAA and declare that you were operating multicrew which will therefore let you build hours toward the ATPL issue.
I do not have job offers or interviews for any operator at the moment - I finished training 6 weeks ago. I do have a king air contact who may be able to help but wanted to weigh up the potential opportunities. My thinking being:
I have a few friends who trained thru same route and schools as me who have all got jobs with Ryanair and Flybe within a year of finishing training.
As a scenario... If I self sponsored a TR on a king air it would cost approx 16K but possibly more. If Flybe were to one day call then that would be fantastic and no harm done.
However, doing a 16K TR on a king air puts me out of the picture for other jet operators like Ryanair who want a self funded TR - as there is no way I will be able to fund 2 TRs!
Anyway, like I said.. It's all speculation at the moment there are no offers. I was trying to plan ahead and be positive about getting a future opportunity.
Cheers
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Most King Air's are operated single crew. There are however a few operations that are multi crew such as Gama Air Ambulance based in Scotland. As part of the operations manual they are certified for 2 crew operation due to the nature of the work. The crews subsequently log multi crew time which counts towards for example ATPL licensing hours. What they cant do however is carry out an ATPL licence skills test in a King Air as the aircraft is not certified for it.
If your low hours and without twin turbine time then doing a speculative TR on a King Air is risky as the subsequent insurance requirements for single crew flying will probably cripple you.
If your low hours and without twin turbine time then doing a speculative TR on a King Air is risky as the subsequent insurance requirements for single crew flying will probably cripple you.
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Thanks Mike.
Could you (or someone) explain the rules for unfreezing the ATPL? It is my understanding that at 1500 hours your ATPL is unfrozen.
Until now thats as far as I have delved into researching the issue (time has been consumed looking at CPL/IR/MCC/JOC license issue and job hunting). Clearly theres more to unfreezing than just getting 1500tt. I did not realise there was a skill test for getting the ATPL - at a jet airline would this be done on the full motion sims during a check ride sim session?
How would this ATPL skill test be carried out if one were to be operating the King Air?
cheers
Could you (or someone) explain the rules for unfreezing the ATPL? It is my understanding that at 1500 hours your ATPL is unfrozen.
Until now thats as far as I have delved into researching the issue (time has been consumed looking at CPL/IR/MCC/JOC license issue and job hunting). Clearly theres more to unfreezing than just getting 1500tt. I did not realise there was a skill test for getting the ATPL - at a jet airline would this be done on the full motion sims during a check ride sim session?
How would this ATPL skill test be carried out if one were to be operating the King Air?
cheers
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Requirements for ATPL issue are here -
Apply for the ATPL(A) Licence | Commercial Pilots | Personal Licences and Training
A King Air is not a multi pilot aeroplane, or at least it never was under JAR regs so you cant do an ATPL test on it, unless things have changed under EASA, which I doubt. You wont therefore be able to sit the ATPL test until you are TR'd on a multi pilot aeroplane.....and also meeting the requirements of operating that aeroplane as PIC....as per the requirements ive posted in the link.
Apply for the ATPL(A) Licence | Commercial Pilots | Personal Licences and Training
A King Air is not a multi pilot aeroplane, or at least it never was under JAR regs so you cant do an ATPL test on it, unless things have changed under EASA, which I doubt. You wont therefore be able to sit the ATPL test until you are TR'd on a multi pilot aeroplane.....and also meeting the requirements of operating that aeroplane as PIC....as per the requirements ive posted in the link.
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So I'm guessing that's the snag. 1500 hours down the line you can't get your ATPL issued unless you changed employer... At which point many potential employers may require ATPL
Last edited by GAZ45; 8th Sep 2015 at 21:06.
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With that line of thinking i am not sure that you deserve any help, but anyway.... If you are interested i can give you a details of place that charges 13500eur for TR on King Air, thought their program is apruved for min 500 PIC as entry requirement.
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That line of thinking? Not deserving help?
I'm simply doing research. Decisions we make now have profound affects on the rest of our lives. I havnt said anything bad about King Airs, King Air operators or the TP industry. I have been discussing facts. Sorry if I have offended you, and thanks for your TR quote.
I'm simply doing research. Decisions we make now have profound affects on the rest of our lives. I havnt said anything bad about King Airs, King Air operators or the TP industry. I have been discussing facts. Sorry if I have offended you, and thanks for your TR quote.
Last edited by GAZ45; 8th Sep 2015 at 21:02.
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Its not a case of changing employer, its a case of meeting all the requirements for issue. As part of the skills test your not just being assessed on the TR or LPC etc, your being assessed on your command of that aircraft. It takes some people years to meet all the criteria.
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My mistake Mike. I understand what you are saying.
The point I was getting at was that a very experienced pilot on a King Air who meets all the criteria (assuming CAA are happy with the aircraft is being operated multicrew) would be unable to get their ATPL issued until they were in a position to undertake the skill test on a suitable aircraft - this meaning that the only way to do so would be a switch of operator unless the pilot in question is willing to fund a TR to sit the ATPL on an appropriate aircraft
The point I was getting at was that a very experienced pilot on a King Air who meets all the criteria (assuming CAA are happy with the aircraft is being operated multicrew) would be unable to get their ATPL issued until they were in a position to undertake the skill test on a suitable aircraft - this meaning that the only way to do so would be a switch of operator unless the pilot in question is willing to fund a TR to sit the ATPL on an appropriate aircraft
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Thats correct. The appropriate list of EASA multi pilot aircraft is here. As you'll see, the King Air is single pilot -
http://easa.europa.eu/system/files/d...t-12032014.pdf
http://easa.europa.eu/system/files/d...t-12032014.pdf
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Just to make sure, it's more than "declaring that you were operating multi crew" that's required to log the time. It needs to be operated on a multi crew approved AOC - which you wouldn't likely have for a private owner (unless through a managed scheme).
You would presumably be getting paid for this work. If so I would not tend to focus *too* much on the ATPL issue. You are unlikely to be flying 900 hours a year so you will have a few years probably before you get to the 1500h total time. If you research carefully and make sure you are cost efficient doing the type rating and then make sure you don't spend all your money on luxuries, it shouldn't take you too long to pay off the type rating cost which would put you back in the position of being able to afford a jet type rating if thats what you wanted to do.
You would presumably be getting paid for this work. If so I would not tend to focus *too* much on the ATPL issue. You are unlikely to be flying 900 hours a year so you will have a few years probably before you get to the 1500h total time. If you research carefully and make sure you are cost efficient doing the type rating and then make sure you don't spend all your money on luxuries, it shouldn't take you too long to pay off the type rating cost which would put you back in the position of being able to afford a jet type rating if thats what you wanted to do.
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I think you might be quoting the JAA rules as interpreted by the UK CAA, OhNoCB. My understanding of the current EASA rules is that, amongst the other requirements for an ATPL you need 500 hours time on an aircraft certified by EASA as multi-crew, in other words after a couple of years on King Airs even if you had 1500 hours (a) you wouldn't be able to get an ATPL issued and (b) you would have to do an MCC course before your first multi-crew type rating. That is not so say King Air time is of no value, as a first job it certainly is, but it doesn't naturally lead into a jet job and King Air pilots often find themselves treated almost as ab-initios when applying for airline positions.
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Thanks Alex.
This was the point I was trying to get at really. I think flying one would put you in a much better position for a future career opportunity than someone who hasn't flown since they left flight training. But nevertheless, you are not building time toward an ATPL.
If you already completed a MCC as part of your flight training would you need to do another one? I can't remember if the MCC has a validity period attached?
This was the point I was trying to get at really. I think flying one would put you in a much better position for a future career opportunity than someone who hasn't flown since they left flight training. But nevertheless, you are not building time toward an ATPL.
If you already completed a MCC as part of your flight training would you need to do another one? I can't remember if the MCC has a validity period attached?
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I can't find anything that suggests the MCC certificate has a validity period. Its not quite true to say that King Air flying doesn't build hours to your ATPL. Hours are hours, you just can't count them to the 500 hour multi-crew requirement. In reality you would be very unlikely to need an ATPL with your first airline job, nearly everyone starts with a CPL and, by the time you are ready for command, you will have much more than 500 hours multi-crew. The bigger nuisance is to have to do an MCC course even though you might consider you are by that time quite experienced in multi-crew ops.
