UK Nationals being discriminated against?
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UK Nationals being discriminated against?
Why do other EU airlines insist on applications being made in their native tongue as well as insisting on being able to speak their native language?
English is the language of the air and sea..I would expect Red Card drills to be in English in a multi national aircraft.
I flew as a pax from mainland EU to the UK and the FO was non UK with a heavy foreign accent that did not come across very well on the PA.
No I do not vote UKIP..but maybe I will vote to leave the EU now..are we Brits being laughed at?
English is the language of the air and sea..I would expect Red Card drills to be in English in a multi national aircraft.
I flew as a pax from mainland EU to the UK and the FO was non UK with a heavy foreign accent that did not come across very well on the PA.
No I do not vote UKIP..but maybe I will vote to leave the EU now..are we Brits being laughed at?
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Agree
I've thought about this myself in the past.
Lufthansa, KLM and others often insist on fluency in their native tongues for would-be applicants.
I think it's a filter to favour nationals.
In the future as a Brit I'll be competing against the world to get a job as a pilot in my home country!!
I don't want to sound like a Little Englander though!!
After all, I might apply for jobs abroad as well, but I wish things were more balanced.
Lufthansa, KLM and others often insist on fluency in their native tongues for would-be applicants.
I think it's a filter to favour nationals.
In the future as a Brit I'll be competing against the world to get a job as a pilot in my home country!!
I don't want to sound like a Little Englander though!!
After all, I might apply for jobs abroad as well, but I wish things were more balanced.
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ENGLISH
The application form or page for any good job with a big international airline or major company will be in English.
It might be a plus to be able to speak the local Lingo, BUT if they are going to offer you a sensible contract, they will also send you to a good language school.
If the interview or web site is in Jalonese, it's just another P2F or P2type scam anyway.
I worked for a year in Germany and never said a word in German to the crew, as a true Brit should only speak two languages:
NORMAL ENGLISH and SLOW LOUD ENGLISH TO THE NATIVES!
PS: We did have one serious incident where are few simple words to the ground crew were shouted by yours truly when two plonkers with a refuel truck made a very serious mistake (Both fuel pumps on with a closed valve), so I just shouted, "ALARM" at max volume over the external PA speaker. The fuel feed hose blew out seconds after he woke up covering the offender in Avgas, but unfortunately he was not smoking on the job.
It might be a plus to be able to speak the local Lingo, BUT if they are going to offer you a sensible contract, they will also send you to a good language school.
If the interview or web site is in Jalonese, it's just another P2F or P2type scam anyway.
I worked for a year in Germany and never said a word in German to the crew, as a true Brit should only speak two languages:
NORMAL ENGLISH and SLOW LOUD ENGLISH TO THE NATIVES!
PS: We did have one serious incident where are few simple words to the ground crew were shouted by yours truly when two plonkers with a refuel truck made a very serious mistake (Both fuel pumps on with a closed valve), so I just shouted, "ALARM" at max volume over the external PA speaker. The fuel feed hose blew out seconds after he woke up covering the offender in Avgas, but unfortunately he was not smoking on the job.
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Covec, you are absolutely right. Me, i am coming from europe mainland and sometimes very frustrated with this issue. Europe should be one.....except if it concerns pilot jobs. Every country is mainteining this rule ( germany is number 1). This protective rule is really 
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I flew as a pax from mainland EU to the UK and the FO was non UK with a heavy foreign accent that did not come across very well on the PA.
So as a non-british pilot, I shouldn't be allowed to make a PA when we'll fly to or from UK, is that what you're saying?
I am just one of thousand of pilots around the world that had to STUDY ENGLISH along with my ATPL in order to get a seat on a liner.
This thread is just ridiculous and offending.
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Pilot-controller comms & ICAO documents is one thing, but language in the cabin?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers
In the UK, the 3rd & 4th rank seems appropriate.
In the case of Europe, should it be Spanish then?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers
In the UK, the 3rd & 4th rank seems appropriate.
In the case of Europe, should it be Spanish then?
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English abroad
If the only people that you ever had to talk to were other company pilots then speaking only English would not be a huge problem. Unfortunately you will have to speak to local hr, ops, crewing, engineers etc who may or may not speak English.
Also you will be expected to live and survive in the country where you are based so you will need a reasonable understanding of the local language just to be able to arrange accommodation, buy food etc etc.
The airlines require all applicants to have an understanding of their language (not just UK applicants) so a Polish pilot applying to a French airline would have to speak French so it's not UK nationals that are being discriminated against.
Also you will be expected to live and survive in the country where you are based so you will need a reasonable understanding of the local language just to be able to arrange accommodation, buy food etc etc.
The airlines require all applicants to have an understanding of their language (not just UK applicants) so a Polish pilot applying to a French airline would have to speak French so it's not UK nationals that are being discriminated against.
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Why would you be discriminated against EU nationals when YOUR mother tongue is being used as an international language/language in aviation instead of many others?
No effort needed from you to learn another language. It is an (unfair?) gift. Many EU nationals (except maybe people from the Netherlands and the North) spend years learning English.
Why would you be discriminated? Have you thought about learning another language? Surely if a EU national can learn English you could learn, I don't know, Spanish? I personally know a few Brits flying in Spain, but obviously they bothered about learning a second language. That is what EU nationals do.
If tomorrow French was to become the new international language again and you were forced to speak French in the radio even in the UK, I am sure you would change your mind about discrimination. I am sure that after your first PA in French you would go to bed and think again about what you have just said here about a EU national doing PAs in English.
Regards
A EU national flying for a British airline
No effort needed from you to learn another language. It is an (unfair?) gift. Many EU nationals (except maybe people from the Netherlands and the North) spend years learning English.
Why would you be discriminated? Have you thought about learning another language? Surely if a EU national can learn English you could learn, I don't know, Spanish? I personally know a few Brits flying in Spain, but obviously they bothered about learning a second language. That is what EU nationals do.
If tomorrow French was to become the new international language again and you were forced to speak French in the radio even in the UK, I am sure you would change your mind about discrimination. I am sure that after your first PA in French you would go to bed and think again about what you have just said here about a EU national doing PAs in English.
Regards
A EU national flying for a British airline
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Doh!
How many languages am I expected to learn?
A ridculous argument.
Almost everyone in the world already speaks English because it is the lingua franca of the world.
So they have the advantage. No doubt about it that it is easier for a Dutch, German or French person to get a job with a British airline than it is for me to get a job in Europe as a pilot.
That's why so many Brits go to the Middle East, where they don't insist we speak Arabic!!!. Because they are reasonable about these things.
A ridculous argument.
Almost everyone in the world already speaks English because it is the lingua franca of the world.
So they have the advantage. No doubt about it that it is easier for a Dutch, German or French person to get a job with a British airline than it is for me to get a job in Europe as a pilot.
That's why so many Brits go to the Middle East, where they don't insist we speak Arabic!!!. Because they are reasonable about these things.
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One of the reasons why English is so widely spoken is that we used to have a massive empire that covered much of the world, those days are sadly no more.
The more languages you learn to a reasonable standard, the more chances you have. There are plenty of British people (not just pilots) who are fluent in several languages, personally I’m only fluent in English (as much as anyone from Somerset can be) but I have a reasonable grasp of French and that’s my own fault for not getting off my backside and learning more when I was younger, no-one to blame but myself.
The simple fact remains that if you wish to live and work in country where English is not spoken as a 1st language you are going to have to get a grasp of the local language just to survive rather than expecting every national of that country to speak your language.
The more languages you learn to a reasonable standard, the more chances you have. There are plenty of British people (not just pilots) who are fluent in several languages, personally I’m only fluent in English (as much as anyone from Somerset can be) but I have a reasonable grasp of French and that’s my own fault for not getting off my backside and learning more when I was younger, no-one to blame but myself.
The simple fact remains that if you wish to live and work in country where English is not spoken as a 1st language you are going to have to get a grasp of the local language just to survive rather than expecting every national of that country to speak your language.
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By fortunate accident of birth I am a native English speaker.
By fortunate or unfortunate accident of history the Brits were expansionist Empire Builders resulting in the spread of English to nations with a more air minded approach than others. E.g. I note that on some aviation job sites the UK is disproportionately represented as having more operators.
I admit to being somewhat bitter as whilst on a train to start my MCC having been accepted for that coveted first FO slot I was telephoned and given the news that the Danish operator flying UK and Danish registered aircraft within the UK for a UK business was to go to a Dane. I hope he pays our taxes.
With the refugee crisis in mind I remember being aghast at a young chap wanting to come to the UK to train to be a pilot once his Asylum Status had been confirmed. I would bet a month of Happy Hours that he will get funding help from us Brits.
The airline that I flew as a pax with I will be avoiding now if I can. Having come up the old BCPL UK Modular route I am surprised that this well known UK airline has taken on foreigners when we in the UK have UK born wannabees.
By fortunate or unfortunate accident of history the Brits were expansionist Empire Builders resulting in the spread of English to nations with a more air minded approach than others. E.g. I note that on some aviation job sites the UK is disproportionately represented as having more operators.
I admit to being somewhat bitter as whilst on a train to start my MCC having been accepted for that coveted first FO slot I was telephoned and given the news that the Danish operator flying UK and Danish registered aircraft within the UK for a UK business was to go to a Dane. I hope he pays our taxes.
With the refugee crisis in mind I remember being aghast at a young chap wanting to come to the UK to train to be a pilot once his Asylum Status had been confirmed. I would bet a month of Happy Hours that he will get funding help from us Brits.
The airline that I flew as a pax with I will be avoiding now if I can. Having come up the old BCPL UK Modular route I am surprised that this well known UK airline has taken on foreigners when we in the UK have UK born wannabees.
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I can understand your frustration, however thanks to European employment law the UK airline that you flew with has no choice but to accept non Brit EU applicants if they speak British to an appropriate standard and have the correct licence/ ratings, they have to be treated the same as you and I.
Equally if we learn a non Brit EU language to an appropriate level and we have the correct licence/ ratings we have to be treated in the same manner by non Brit airlines.
Equally if we learn a non Brit EU language to an appropriate level and we have the correct licence/ ratings we have to be treated in the same manner by non Brit airlines.
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Is this discrimination or not?
1) You part of the EU ans the standard Language in Aviation is English and your prof is 6.
You apply to any Scandanavian, German, Danish, Spain etc - there is a direct requirement for you to speak their language. If you are not able to then you cannot apply. However, they are able to apply to jobs in the UK?
Grossly unfair to be fair.
2) Age - is totally unfair and illegal - yet everyone uses it. It is generally said to be used for identification purposes, but any really average person would see the sense of using license numbers as a means for identification.
just my 2p worth
1) You part of the EU ans the standard Language in Aviation is English and your prof is 6.
You apply to any Scandanavian, German, Danish, Spain etc - there is a direct requirement for you to speak their language. If you are not able to then you cannot apply. However, they are able to apply to jobs in the UK?
Grossly unfair to be fair.
2) Age - is totally unfair and illegal - yet everyone uses it. It is generally said to be used for identification purposes, but any really average person would see the sense of using license numbers as a means for identification.
just my 2p worth
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magicmick; I presume its got to be other issues in between that vet their frustration and not this "English language discrimination" issue. I would hold onto my competitiveness and sharpen my skills that sort of thing.
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I don't think its discrimination against UK nationals.
If German airline A is hiring and requires you to speak German, it is likely that they are 'discrimination' against the Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italians etc too - if you see where I am going?
It IS a way of giving preference or advantage to natives, but the ONLY reason that the UK or other English native countries don't (can't) 'discriminate' or 'favour' in this way is because anyone with a commercial licence in Europe should be able to speak English anyway.
If German airline A is hiring and requires you to speak German, it is likely that they are 'discrimination' against the Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italians etc too - if you see where I am going?
It IS a way of giving preference or advantage to natives, but the ONLY reason that the UK or other English native countries don't (can't) 'discriminate' or 'favour' in this way is because anyone with a commercial licence in Europe should be able to speak English anyway.
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It might not be discrimination. It could be that the Dane was judged to be a better pilot for the job in question.
It is not that difficult to learn a foreign language and if you want to work in another country you'll most likely have to learn one.
If EU pilots manage to learn English, why is covec unable to learn another language?
Also why is it a problem for covec if a desperate refugee has dreams and aspirations? Or should anyone fleeing a war or famine just be grateful for a job cleaning toilets?
It's a bummer being passed over for a job but I'd suggest covec takes a look at himself first before blaming foreigners for his situation.
It is not that difficult to learn a foreign language and if you want to work in another country you'll most likely have to learn one.
If EU pilots manage to learn English, why is covec unable to learn another language?
Also why is it a problem for covec if a desperate refugee has dreams and aspirations? Or should anyone fleeing a war or famine just be grateful for a job cleaning toilets?
It's a bummer being passed over for a job but I'd suggest covec takes a look at himself first before blaming foreigners for his situation.
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Level 6
You make the assumption that every pilot in Europe is somehow Level 6 in English and able to dispute you a seat in a UK airliner.
That is far from true, there is a big percentage that would be unable to pass a screening/interview precissely because of the language.
Lots have level 4 or 5 ON PAPER ONLY, when it comes to the real thing probably less.
The only ones that are in big numbers able to dispute you a seat would be as some ppruner pointed out, Dutch or Scandi, which I believe learn English from a very early age, and even then, they would, in my opinion, be at disadvantage because although they have a good level of English, it is not their mother tongue, and that shows on a selection process and interview.
As for being discriminated, as somebody else pointed out, all non local lingo speakers are affected, not only you, and although not too convenient for me personally, or for you, I guess it makes sense to be able to speak it for all the reasons our colleague pointed out.
If I go to UK to work in a Uk airline I am required to speak the local lingo too, which happens to be also the aeronautical/operational language.
2006
That is far from true, there is a big percentage that would be unable to pass a screening/interview precissely because of the language.
Lots have level 4 or 5 ON PAPER ONLY, when it comes to the real thing probably less.
The only ones that are in big numbers able to dispute you a seat would be as some ppruner pointed out, Dutch or Scandi, which I believe learn English from a very early age, and even then, they would, in my opinion, be at disadvantage because although they have a good level of English, it is not their mother tongue, and that shows on a selection process and interview.
As for being discriminated, as somebody else pointed out, all non local lingo speakers are affected, not only you, and although not too convenient for me personally, or for you, I guess it makes sense to be able to speak it for all the reasons our colleague pointed out.
If I go to UK to work in a Uk airline I am required to speak the local lingo too, which happens to be also the aeronautical/operational language.
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It's hardly directly specifically at Britons since it would be a limitation on anyone who wasn't from that particular country. I would imagine that it is simply because it's a lot easier for general operations in the airport if you speak the local language. For example if you need to say something to the refuelling guy or baggage handlers it's a lot better if you can just talk to them directly rather than having to find someone to translate for you.
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I take the (well made) point that say, a Portuguese pilot would need to say learn German in order to fly in Germany - as well as English of course.
Perhaps my contention is more of a suspicion that once again the Brits are alone in applying the spirit of Equal Opportunity - unless someone corrects me I just do not believe that it is an entirely level playing field e.g. even if I learnt French I am not certain that that would "cut the mustard" with the French.
Re the lost FO slot - sure, the guy was far better qualified. His Danish Captain slot had gone & the Danes moved him to the UK to take up an FO slot that I was already preparing for i.e. MCC & awaiting the Type Rating course notes.
With 28 years flying as non-pilot aircrew (but incl. 25 hours RHS on HS125) in the Royal Air Force & 9 years GA instructing I feel comfortable with my Airmanship & flying abilities.
Having received both a Joint Aviation Professionalism Award post Desert Storm & a Queen's New Year Honours Award for Meritorious Service I guess that someone else feels the same?!
No matter. Thank you all for your input! Just a contentious thought that I wanted to get off the ground - this is a Flying Forum after all!!!
Bon vol! Volo securo! Vuelo seguro! Sikkur flyvetur!
Safe flight!
Perhaps my contention is more of a suspicion that once again the Brits are alone in applying the spirit of Equal Opportunity - unless someone corrects me I just do not believe that it is an entirely level playing field e.g. even if I learnt French I am not certain that that would "cut the mustard" with the French.
Re the lost FO slot - sure, the guy was far better qualified. His Danish Captain slot had gone & the Danes moved him to the UK to take up an FO slot that I was already preparing for i.e. MCC & awaiting the Type Rating course notes.
With 28 years flying as non-pilot aircrew (but incl. 25 hours RHS on HS125) in the Royal Air Force & 9 years GA instructing I feel comfortable with my Airmanship & flying abilities.
Having received both a Joint Aviation Professionalism Award post Desert Storm & a Queen's New Year Honours Award for Meritorious Service I guess that someone else feels the same?!
No matter. Thank you all for your input! Just a contentious thought that I wanted to get off the ground - this is a Flying Forum after all!!!
Bon vol! Volo securo! Vuelo seguro! Sikkur flyvetur!
Safe flight!