Advice for new female pilot

[Lady_Jennifer]

Hey everyone,

I am looking to get a bit of advice on employment and moving forward with my aviation career.

firstly let me introduce myself, I am a 23 years old, female pilot from the south of England, my mother & father were both commercial pilots & my grandfather flew in WWII & for Dan air on the comet & 707

I have always had a keen interest in aviation to say the least!

I did my initial pilot training in the UK & got a CPL,ME,IR & Frozen ATPL my total time is around 300 hours.

I finished flight school 6 months ago and have applied to literally hundreds of jobs, knocking on doors, waiting for hours just to have 2 mins with the CP, only to be told you need to have experience on our aircraft type.

now..my question is

I have seen opportunities on the internet to buy Type ratings plus 500 hours line training, these are very expensive, however I can afford them, should I go for one?

when I was traveling up and down the country knocking on doors it would appear that if I had a type rating plus 500 hours I may have had a chance at interview and possible first job!

if I did go ahead I would be left with 800 hours TT

the other question is which program would be best?

so far I have seen
500 hours on A320 £63,000 (including TR)
500 hours on B737NG $49,000
500 hours on B737CL £58,000 (including TR)
500 hours on Metro III/B1900D/Shorts $26,500
500 hours on Learjet $33,000
500 hours on Challenger $66,000

a lot of options but which would be best? my goal is to fly short to medium haul flights within a charter or airline.

also I have read a few of the forums and there are some negative post's about paying to gain experience, but how do I know these comments are valid? are these just other pilots that perhaps could not afford to do these programs worried about new pilots overtaking them in the job market?

well thanks for reading, I am happy to be part of this new community and will respect and listen to all advice good or bad.

also please note that my family have given me good advice but they say the job markets have changed drastically over the last 20 years and are not up to date with how things are done these days. ( they are both retired)

[IrishJason]

Well pay to fly is as everyone says killing the industry. I see the passion for flight in your post, But even I, only been a humble ppl holder can see that at the moment things are bad. Alot of people will tell you not to buy a tr but if you have the cash its up to you. The best of luck

[TeaTowel]

also I have read a few of the forums and there are some negative post's about paying to gain experience, but how do I know these comments are valid? are these just other pilots that perhaps could not afford to do these programs worried about new pilots overtaking them in the job market?

Its obviously a troll account.

[Torque Tonight]

Don't pay for a type rating unless you have a rock solid job contract in place.

'You don't have 500hr on type' is the inoffensive way of saying we don't have a job for you. If you the speculate 50 grand on a rating independently, when you go back to them the answer will likely still be no, but now you're 50k lighter and locked into one aircraft type. If they were serious they would interview you now and offer you a contract subject to completion of a rating and hours. But they won' do that, will they. There's your answer.

PS There have been approximately 100,000 threads on this very subject.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well I aint worried about you overtaking me in the job queue (since I have a great little long haul job and a few thousand hours on the A330), but I say you're mad if you even consider paying for line time at all, let alone the £50 and £60 grand figures you're tossing around in such a care free fashion.

Both myself and my wife (since you're looking for advice from a female pilot) worked up from the bottom, me as a flying instructor / air ambulance pilot, and her as a flight ops / dispatch person who moved into the turboprop RHS after a year working in the office. Both are still valid paths to get to the shiny jets, and both are jobs that actually pay you while you're working towards your goals.

Believe it or not, a lot (I'd say the majority) of the people who post on here slagging off at P2F aren't competing wannabes, they are airline people who are concerned about the slickly packaged rip off merchants who are absolutely ravaging you guys who are so desperate to get into this industry, and the eye watering sums of debt you are prepared to take on to get a foot in the door.

The lie these guys are selling, is that somehow having 500 on type will make the jobs mysteriously appear, but the problem at the moment is a more simple one - the "good" airlines just aren't hiring, and haven't done so for several years. Having all the time in the world won't make an airline hire you, if they don't want or need any more pilots at the moment.

Rest assured the decent airlines WILL start hiring again at some stage, probably not until this stupid economic recession is over. Rest assured that when they do, they will be looking for the "right" people. The "right" people aren't going to be the hot headed young who have a two-years-uncurrent B737 rating and 500 hours of cowboy ops with Lion Air, and who've been doing nothing but flipping burgers ever since while they try to service their £120,000 debts. The "right" people will be the ones who have been biding their time in flight instructing and turboprops, staying current, staying positive and doing the networking.

If you have a specific and genuine job offer that requires you to go fund a type rating, and if the economics of doing so make it worthwhile, that's generally ok, but it is utter lunacy to go and drop £50,000+ on some speculative jet time with a crummy operator. Refer to the Lion Air and Eastern Skyjets threads running on these forums at the moment and get a feel for the people who are actually selling these right hand seats, they're bottom-of-the-food-chain airlines in third world countries as a rule. For every chief pilot who might keep your CV when he saw your time on type with these airlines, there's two other chief pilots who'll throw it in the trash even faster.

[Eastern_Skyjets]

just a word of warning regarding sky toddler, he slags ESJ off without even knowing anyone or anything about our airline, the only knowledge he has is from the disgruntled ex-employees who post negative comments on the Pprune forums and some how thinks he is some kind of expert on ESJ

he is right about Lion air though, look at all the incidents and hull losses, and they do have low standards

not the case with ESJ, never had an accident ever!! and our business is booming with 2 new B734 coming at the end of the year

Good luck

[Luke SkyToddler]

Jeez what was that, 12 minutes from my post to yours? If you were as fast as that with paying your employees their (pathetically low) salaries, then maybe people wouldn't make jokes about your joke airline

Anyway Jennifer it's tough enough for the guys, but I really don't advise a young British woman to spend too much time on the ground in Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan which is where you'd be doing most of your flying should you take up ESJ on their wonderful P2F deal

Thanks for "warning" everyone about me again ESJ mate you're getting quite good at that! I've been flying and ppruning for the last 20 years and I think my history speaks for itself. I don't need to tell any stories, anyone who's interested can read this guy (Eastern Skyjets) post history and come to their own conclusions about him and the airline he claims to represent. And whether you'd trust him with £60,000 of your money

[Propellers]

Lady-Jen, I am a P2F pilot, i'm not proud of it but it does work, I joined a company called Hermes who operate A320 done 500 hours and was taken on with them thereafter, So it does work

I would advise looking at the A320 as I feel there is more opportunity on this type

PM me if you need any details

[Eastern_Skyjets]

20 years!! and it seems you haven't learnt anythin! anythin!!

how dare you call our cadetship a P2F scam you know nothing about it skytodller, we have to charge our cadets a fee as there are costs to be covered!! simulators,fuel,safety pilots, uniforms, visas the list is endless and no we will not provide this to pilots for free!

ESJ pays salaries not too dissimilar to fly dubai so give it a rest mate

[TeaTowel]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

See that everyone, by p2f or sstr you are propping these companies up.

Don't pay and leave them die off naturally.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Everyone that saw the Hermes Airbus at Lyon sitting on the grass full of mud can testify on that

I can't stand P2F as much as the next guy but in the interest of balance how many aircraft have been binned by non P2F pilots?

[redsnail]

Lady Jennifer, firstly, your gender is not an issue so don't worry about it.
I am "old school" and not from Europe but currently working in Europe on a bizjet.
I don't believe in paying for a speculative type rating for the above reasons.
I am a believer in working your way up and gaining experience and contacts.
As you already hold a CPL, then the pro's and cons' of modular v integrated are moot.
Therefore, right now, you have a couple of choices.

You can look around and find out what school may hire you post instructor rating should you go that path. Look for decent jobs etc. It's good for actually teaching you how to fly, understand the principles a lot better and it's not a bad ticket to have for future work as a line trainer etc. However, you must want to teach, not just "hour build" and work can be sporadic.

Other option is to pack a bag, head to Africa or the Caribbean and try your luck as a s/e charter pilot. That requires a fair bit of planning and luck, but it's worth it for the life experience alone.

Final option is to get yourself a job in an FBO (ideally with it's own aircraft) and make yourself utterly indispensable to them. Make contacts, show willing, learn and you just may get yourself a job on a bizjet/Kingair. Downsides is the hour accrual rate is low, 300 a year or so.

[Torque Tonight]

there are costs to be covered!! simulators,fuel,safety pilots, uniforms, visas the list is endless and no we will not provide this to pilots for free!

These are revenue flights you are are operating, and those are pretty standard operating expenses for an airline. It's not like you're a flying club, flying these jets around empty for the benefit of the pilot. Perhaps you should tell the pilots to purchase and bring with them to work each day a can of hydraulic fluid, a toner cartridge, some engine parts and a loo roll for the heads.

If the absurdity of Eastern's comments are not immediately obvious to you, then frankly you are made for each other.

[beadgalaxy]

As stated, your commitment will show a lot more than what you did compared to buying type ratings and just following the p2f schemes.

Something will come, most of the senior working pilots today from my understanding never bought ratings and worked their way up based on their character and commitment as well as their passion for flying.

I dont see much security and business ethics from a company if they cant offer you employment unless you dont have a type rating.

In South Africa, I dont know of one airline that has any type rating requirements, have you done the time? If yes and your experience is applicable to their hour requirements you can move forward.

[Lady_Jennifer]

Hey Guys,

Thank you all for making the effort to help me out, I appreciate it

the last thing I would want is to go ahead with a program and then find it difficult to gain employment because of the program!! I just don't understand why some pilots would put themselves in front of the train like that.

well there is some really useful information, I have taken it all onboard

I may well plan a trip down to Africa and see if that could open any doors of opportunity, not definite but it sounds appealing

I am slightly guilty of having tunnel vision, with my family having all flown commercial airliners I wanted to follow in there path, but things sure have changed since there time (they did not pay a penny for any of there training) and I must look at the bigger picture.

well wish me luck!! I am going to start drawing up an action plan, however I am fairly confident that the hour building programs are not for me as my long term goal is a major carrier.

Thank you once again

[Bearcat F8F]

redsnail,

Caribbean? Really? Never heard. Do you care to elaborate? I was under the impression they only want their own residents down there.

And another question to you. I am interested in finding work with a (bizjet preferably) FBO, and making myself indispensable to them as you say, but what is the best way of getting into an FBO in the 1st place? I heard about things like ground dispatch which I assume requires you to have a CPL beforehand? Any other jobs someone without any experience could get in an FBO?

Thanks!

[redsnail]

Bearcat, in the past, Brits et al have gone to the Caribbean to fly. Just as some Aussies have gone to the Pacific Islands to fly too.
It's hard work finding the opportunity, but what I would do is find out where in the world "scenic" flights take place. Then do the research to find out what the operators want. Then see if your qualifications and visas match (or can get close to it).

yes, the world has changed and it will continue to change. With the internet and a few handy search words, you can find out a lot.

As for the FBOs? No, you don't need a CPL to be a dispatcher in the UK/Europe. Just keen and a willingness to learn and crack on. Best way to get a job at an FBO, once again, the internet is your friend.
Where do most bizjets operate? Look up the directories and see if you can find them. It is getting increasingly more difficult to get onto the airfields these days.

[Bealzebub]

I know it is deviating from the topic, and probably quite rude to mention, but Lady_Jennifer and Eastern_skyjets do seem to have the slightly strange habit of alternating between starting a sentence with a capital letter and then not doing. They should take the same care that Propellers does. Must be the education that his "millionaire" parents provided?

Come on ESJ. Luke has hit the nail on the head. Do you really need to create these troll persona's simply to advocate yourself? Tell me Lady_Jennifer and Propellers aren't simply you or somebody sharing your computer?

[Bernoulli11]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what does your being female have to do with your question? Are you after a pat on the back? Because that's how it comes across.

[davidbrent]

The female thing i think is interesting, as it has no bearing on the questions at hand, (no man vs woman banter type questions).

My guess, i think its to dupe people (typical lads) into repsonding....

.... troll i think.