Signs Pay2Fly is on the way out??
Educated Hillbilly
Thread Starter
Signs Pay2Fly is on the way out??
Just an observation but three adverts in recent months Farnair, Indonesian Air Transport and now Easyjet have been advertising for experienced First Officers, where as previously all three of these companies were involved in pay to fly schemes.
A sign that pay to fly is losing popularity? An indication that experience is getting recognised once again? Or just me being naively optimistic?
A sign that pay to fly is losing popularity? An indication that experience is getting recognised once again? Or just me being naively optimistic?
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 30th Mar 2013 at 11:00.
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credit drying up
Maybe it has something to do with the credit for flying training drying up, with so many pilots defaulting on their loan repayments. The banks are getting fed-up with this and are less willing to finance these programs as they don't lead to paid employment elsewhere.
Lets hope this trend continues.
Lets hope this trend continues.
Last edited by mdieker; 1st Apr 2013 at 21:18.
Mdieker,
Seemingly not, credit is not a problem as long as people have enough security (ie. the parents house). It would appear that just as many people are still signing up to various integrated courses. The change in recruitment policy appears to mainly stem from the need to balance experience levels, ensuring enough suitable command ready SFO's are available over the next few years.
Seemingly not, credit is not a problem as long as people have enough security (ie. the parents house). It would appear that just as many people are still signing up to various integrated courses. The change in recruitment policy appears to mainly stem from the need to balance experience levels, ensuring enough suitable command ready SFO's are available over the next few years.
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As far as I can see there has been an increase in people taking up training. I am beginning to wonder whether people are attracted to the price rather than flying itself.
Like the price they pay for the course is some sort of status symbol.
Like the price they pay for the course is some sort of status symbol.
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I don't know why everyone seems to think its young kids using their parents money to go to Pay2fly?
If you look at these schemes majority is done by guys and sometimes girls in their late 20's early 30's possibly 40's because they had to save the money or its a late career change.
If you consider CTC and OAA then I agree, majority is the parents money.
If you take Lion Air for example, they were expanding beyond there means and throwing money at planes which required crew. Not a lot of people can afford to be pilots in Indonesia and due to its corruption money could be made using p2f.
The plan was for expats to fill the seats till the holding pool of cadets grew enough.
The DGCA doesn't regulate a companies expandsure, unlike the EU, where if the company can not hold standards in the departments and hold enough reserve money in the bank then expandsure will come to a holt or slowed down.
The theory of p2f is eroding TC's is a bit ludicrous seeing as the terms and conditions in places like Indonesia are so low you wouldn't even consider it even if they were paying you.
P2f was a reflection of the economy and a gap in a desperate market and someone decided to capitalise it for their own gain. When the market picks up these schemes will die out.
If you look at these schemes majority is done by guys and sometimes girls in their late 20's early 30's possibly 40's because they had to save the money or its a late career change.
If you consider CTC and OAA then I agree, majority is the parents money.
If you take Lion Air for example, they were expanding beyond there means and throwing money at planes which required crew. Not a lot of people can afford to be pilots in Indonesia and due to its corruption money could be made using p2f.
The plan was for expats to fill the seats till the holding pool of cadets grew enough.
The DGCA doesn't regulate a companies expandsure, unlike the EU, where if the company can not hold standards in the departments and hold enough reserve money in the bank then expandsure will come to a holt or slowed down.
The theory of p2f is eroding TC's is a bit ludicrous seeing as the terms and conditions in places like Indonesia are so low you wouldn't even consider it even if they were paying you.
P2f was a reflection of the economy and a gap in a desperate market and someone decided to capitalise it for their own gain. When the market picks up these schemes will die out.
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Don't know how true it is but I read that some airlines don't want to hire those that have been on a P2F scheme. I have suspicions on the reasons but I should keep those to myself.
The point is, as long as other airlines are refusing those who finish a P2F course, then P2F will die. I think P2F was a period of madness during the recession, something that will eventually die.
The point is, as long as other airlines are refusing those who finish a P2F course, then P2F will die. I think P2F was a period of madness during the recession, something that will eventually die.
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HR are the ones who do the hiring not the pilots...So the statement of airlines refusin p2f pilots is a load of croc.
Scoot airlines (Singapore airlines) has 4 EU guys who went to Lion Air now flying their 777. Jet2.com has 4 pilots. HKE KAL QR also have p2f pilots.
Having the hours is one thing, passing any interview is an art of its own. FACT is no company will offer you an interview if they wasnt serious about hiring you.
Scoot airlines (Singapore airlines) has 4 EU guys who went to Lion Air now flying their 777. Jet2.com has 4 pilots. HKE KAL QR also have p2f pilots.
Having the hours is one thing, passing any interview is an art of its own. FACT is no company will offer you an interview if they wasnt serious about hiring you.
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I know its been done to death on here but I view paying for a TR as pay to fly as-well. If 10 candidates go for an interview with 5 places available, it would be the biggest coincidence in history if the 5 best candidates also happen to have 30000 euros to spare.
I reality some of the 5 who eventually get the job were probably outclassed in the interview/sim-assessment(but obviously still made a required minimum grade) by others, but the others had to admit their bank account balance has a minus in front of it and therefore are not able to take the job!
Thus HR move down the list to find someone who can pay.
If this happened(or starts to happen!) in any other industry, there would be riots on our streets.
Paying for a TR and hours might go but paying for a TR and job is not
I reality some of the 5 who eventually get the job were probably outclassed in the interview/sim-assessment(but obviously still made a required minimum grade) by others, but the others had to admit their bank account balance has a minus in front of it and therefore are not able to take the job!
Thus HR move down the list to find someone who can pay.If this happened(or starts to happen!) in any other industry, there would be riots on our streets.
Paying for a TR and hours might go but paying for a TR and job is not
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Looking from the outside SSTR are very much p2f.
If I don't pay, I don't fly. Kapeesh?
A. Good pilot, good personality, 1500hrs, no money, = No job.
B. Average pilot, bearable personality, 250-1500hrs, tons of money, = job.
If I don't pay, I don't fly. Kapeesh?
A. Good pilot, good personality, 1500hrs, no money, = No job.
B. Average pilot, bearable personality, 250-1500hrs, tons of money, = job.
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You can brand it whatever you want, if you have paid upwards of 100K (which is the amount to join easyjet through CTC) you have 'paid to fly', because no money equals no job! No money means no airline career anymore if you are just starting out, long gone are the days when full sponsorship's are available. Because if you don't have that 80 or 100K lying about, you can bet that somebody else has and they are willing to pay that to get a job, the airlines know this, why would they stop P2F/sstr when they know people are prepared to pay to get a job?
Last edited by BAe 146-100; 3rd Apr 2013 at 12:45.
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By that logic, if you've paid for any training for any job in your life (including paying for modular training, or an FI rating), you've "paid to fly."
Anyone who got a job with the aid of their degree? Whoops, they've "paid to fly" too apparently!
Anyone who got a job with the aid of their degree? Whoops, they've "paid to fly" too apparently!
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Er no, you pay for training in just about every discipline these days. That gets you a qualification and not a job.
When you are then looking for a job and the deciding factor of who gets a job between you and your Micro-biology, Dentistry, Architecture etc, classmates is how much money you can give your prospective employer, then that is paying for a job
Its a simplistic view as its a pretty simple concept.
When you are then looking for a job and the deciding factor of who gets a job between you and your Micro-biology, Dentistry, Architecture etc, classmates is how much money you can give your prospective employer, then that is paying for a job
Its a simplistic view as its a pretty simple concept.
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A type rating IS training. I think you're muddying the dishwater, TeaTowel.
If your problem is with incompetent pilots getting into airlines just because they have money, then you ought to present facts and figures to support your hypothesis.
The reality is that there are many good pilots who either saved the money or could access the funding to pay for a type rating in order to accept a job offer. Most probably do not want to work for the locos.
Amazingly, some of those same pilots are able to pass selection interviews and aptitude testing for the likes of BA, not because they have money but because they are Good Pilots with Good Personalities.
However, for example, as of 2012 BA only take cadets without flying experience who can afford to pay £84,000 for their training. Remember, whilst it is termed a 'bond' the money is take back from the newly qualified pilot in one way or another.
Talented experienced pilots do get a raw deal these days, but that is the fault of the airlines - all of them - tightening their belts and the Unions and Regulatory bodies doing absolutely nothing to slow the drain of experience from the cockpit in the face of airline expansion in the low cost sector.
However, for example, as of 2012 BA only take cadets without flying experience
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As training costs are tax
deductable ,airlines can reduce the
Amount they pay the taxman
So pretty naff that they ask people to pay
Seems like the rating income is a revenue
Generator
No other walk of life is quite as ridiculous
deductable ,airlines can reduce the
Amount they pay the taxman
So pretty naff that they ask people to pay
Seems like the rating income is a revenue
Generator
No other walk of life is quite as ridiculous
