Have you given up?
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The quaint notion that things will somehow revert back to where they were two decades ago, is simply nonsense. They can't because the fundamentals have changed. The mask that this current economic downturn provides, is a set of hoardings. If you find a crack and peek behind those hoardings, you will see investment and reorganisation going on at many of these large FTO's in preparation for the expansion that they intend to profit from.
I suppose the hope for those of us who cannot go through the traditional 'integrated' route, for whatever reason, is that the upturn will give rise to additional opportunities for low hours pilots: whether these be opportunities to enter airlines directly as with the Ryanair and the CTC takeoff scheme; or just more and better opportunities for 'experience building' GA jobs of the type Bealzebub mentions.
At the moment for those who are not on integrated airline cadetships, it really does just seem to be Ryanair, instructing, or nothing and I can well imagine that life gets in the way and forces people to give up.
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Taxistanding - your last paragraph unfortunately is all too true.
Bealzebub - What does a flexicrew cadet make in their first 8 month contract? I've heard its something like £1200 per month but wondered if this depends on the size of your loan? And how many 8 month flexicrew contracts can someone expect with potential 'winter breaks', before they stand a chance of getting a permanent contract? Apologies for the direct questions but the info doesn't seem to be very forthcoming on the CTC threads? Probably as both can very depending upon circumstances I guess? Thanks.
Bealzebub - What does a flexicrew cadet make in their first 8 month contract? I've heard its something like £1200 per month but wondered if this depends on the size of your loan? And how many 8 month flexicrew contracts can someone expect with potential 'winter breaks', before they stand a chance of getting a permanent contract? Apologies for the direct questions but the info doesn't seem to be very forthcoming on the CTC threads? Probably as both can very depending upon circumstances I guess? Thanks.
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Sorry, I don't know! The cadets who came to us cleared in the region of £2500 a month for their placement period, and are all now on full time permanent contracts. There are plenty of people who can give you better specific information in answer to your question. I am sure someone will be along shortly to do just that.
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The reason why some end up bankrupt or in mountains of debt with nothing to show for it is because some give up while the others dont.
A friend of mine went the instructor way in the US ,worked there for a small C 402 company(sponsored) and when he ahd a good amount of hours and experience went back to the UK (not a uk national..but european) to work as a post man and studying at night for his ATPL.
He passed all exams (95% average) long distance in a year and got a job flying turbo props in the UK.
He had ZERO debt and got a commercial job!!
Brain,work and perseverance pays off at the end.
Last edited by de facto; 4th Jan 2013 at 06:23.
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Regretably I fall into the gave up category. Finished training a long time ago and although interviewed with BA, Aer Lingus and DHL things did not work out. Age was not on my side and I reached a point where, although I did not owe any money I was barely making enough to live let alone recover the lost financial ground of the self improver route.
I sat down one day and thought it all through and decided that I wanted my life back, to no longer be sitting in limbo wondering whether the networking was going to pay off, not being able to commit to trying to re-establish myself in my previous career and spending good money keeping licences etc valid.
Having evaluated all the options, which is what we pilots do, yes I am a pilot just not one that exercised the privileges of the Commercial ticket, I made the decision to commit to rebuilding my life and finances. I have been lucky, right place at the right time and took up some opportunities and now 12 years later just about paid off my mortgage have some money invested although not enough to retire on but in a lot better shape than I thought I would be.
To the OP, it is tough to be where you are right now, the dream, all the hard work, stressing through exams and checkrides for what? The way I see it is better to call it a day rather than bury yourself deeper in debt, it shows sound decision making and for that you have my respect.
I sat down one day and thought it all through and decided that I wanted my life back, to no longer be sitting in limbo wondering whether the networking was going to pay off, not being able to commit to trying to re-establish myself in my previous career and spending good money keeping licences etc valid.
Having evaluated all the options, which is what we pilots do, yes I am a pilot just not one that exercised the privileges of the Commercial ticket, I made the decision to commit to rebuilding my life and finances. I have been lucky, right place at the right time and took up some opportunities and now 12 years later just about paid off my mortgage have some money invested although not enough to retire on but in a lot better shape than I thought I would be.
To the OP, it is tough to be where you are right now, the dream, all the hard work, stressing through exams and checkrides for what? The way I see it is better to call it a day rather than bury yourself deeper in debt, it shows sound decision making and for that you have my respect.
de facto,
Many people have done their training without taking on loans, myself included so far. I am talking about training up to fATPL though and I presume this is what your friend did.
Once we start moving into paying tens of thousands for type ratings and integrated airline schemes plus having to fly for next to no pay for a period of time, the chances of this being viable decrease.
How long would it take to put enough aside for not only the fATPL but also any TR that may be required? If there is a period of working on very low income whilst line training then this would also need to be provided for.
What I am trying to say is not that it could not be done in the past without taking on debt but that it will become increasingly difficult in the future.
Either the supply of people both able and willing to finance the training themselves will dry up or it will continue. Supply and Demand will dictate how far it goes as is usually the case.
Many people have done their training without taking on loans, myself included so far. I am talking about training up to fATPL though and I presume this is what your friend did.
Once we start moving into paying tens of thousands for type ratings and integrated airline schemes plus having to fly for next to no pay for a period of time, the chances of this being viable decrease.
How long would it take to put enough aside for not only the fATPL but also any TR that may be required? If there is a period of working on very low income whilst line training then this would also need to be provided for.
What I am trying to say is not that it could not be done in the past without taking on debt but that it will become increasingly difficult in the future.
Either the supply of people both able and willing to finance the training themselves will dry up or it will continue. Supply and Demand will dictate how far it goes as is usually the case.
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@ felixflyer
Spot on felixflyer. Personally i think that the supply for new -indebted- pilots
will not end anytime soon.
A young cadet can always hope that after 15 or so years will be able to be hired by companies like BA or Virgin. Having managed that then the cost of training, TR etc will be long forgotten and the whole pilot thing will look like a good investment.
Always the aspiring cadets will have as an example those lucky few, who managed to be hired by the legacy carriers.
Thats where lies the secret. If legacy carriers were willing to hire people who managed to acquire all those ratings through modular route debt - free, although at a certain age, then it would be a strong message to aviation community.
Not a right-here right-now mentality which entails a certain amount of debt.
I may be wrong but these are my thoughts for the current enviroment.
will not end anytime soon.
A young cadet can always hope that after 15 or so years will be able to be hired by companies like BA or Virgin. Having managed that then the cost of training, TR etc will be long forgotten and the whole pilot thing will look like a good investment.
Always the aspiring cadets will have as an example those lucky few, who managed to be hired by the legacy carriers.
Thats where lies the secret. If legacy carriers were willing to hire people who managed to acquire all those ratings through modular route debt - free, although at a certain age, then it would be a strong message to aviation community.
Not a right-here right-now mentality which entails a certain amount of debt.
I may be wrong but these are my thoughts for the current enviroment.
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May I recomend the book The Dip by Seth Godin
A Little Book That Teaches You When to Quit (and When to Stick)
An easily digestible social marketplace commentary from the blogger/author who penned Purple Cow and Small is the New Big, Godin prescribes a cleverly counter-intuitive way to approach one's potential for success. Smart, honest, and refreshingly free of self-help posturing, this primer on winning-through-quitting is at once motivational and comically indifferent, making the lofty goal of "becoming the best in the world" an achievable proposition-all you need is to "start doing some quitting." The secret to "strategic quitting" is seeking, understanding and embracing "the Dip," "the long slog between starting and mastery" in which those without the determination or will find themselves burning out. As such, Godin demonstrates how to identify and quit your "Cul-de-Sac" and "Cliff" situations, in which no amount of work will lead to success. Godin provides tips for finding your Dip, taking advantage of it and becoming one of the few (inevitably valuable) players to emerge on the other side; he also provides guidelines for quitting with confidence. Quick, hilarious and happily irreverent, Godin's truth-that "we fail when we get distracted by tasks we don't have the guts to quit"-makes excellent sense of an often-difficult career move.
A Little Book That Teaches You When to Quit (and When to Stick)
An easily digestible social marketplace commentary from the blogger/author who penned Purple Cow and Small is the New Big, Godin prescribes a cleverly counter-intuitive way to approach one's potential for success. Smart, honest, and refreshingly free of self-help posturing, this primer on winning-through-quitting is at once motivational and comically indifferent, making the lofty goal of "becoming the best in the world" an achievable proposition-all you need is to "start doing some quitting." The secret to "strategic quitting" is seeking, understanding and embracing "the Dip," "the long slog between starting and mastery" in which those without the determination or will find themselves burning out. As such, Godin demonstrates how to identify and quit your "Cul-de-Sac" and "Cliff" situations, in which no amount of work will lead to success. Godin provides tips for finding your Dip, taking advantage of it and becoming one of the few (inevitably valuable) players to emerge on the other side; he also provides guidelines for quitting with confidence. Quick, hilarious and happily irreverent, Godin's truth-that "we fail when we get distracted by tasks we don't have the guts to quit"-makes excellent sense of an often-difficult career move.
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If legacy carriers were willing to hire people who managed to acquire all those ratings through modular route debt - free, although at a certain age, then it would be a strong message to aviation community.
As it has already been established, that you do not have to have a college degree to fly an airplane (it is preferable if you're a fitness instructor, as you probably have more money), sell the job to the highest bidder. And let's keep it real: 99,9 percent of the time flying is pure routine, so you do not have to be a brain surgeon. That 0,1 percent is collateral damage.
Exactly, the mystery has gone out of flying and its not coming back, anyone that has played about with flight sim knows whats involved and pilots are no longer looked upon as they once were. Yes there will be tales of crosswind landings at night in rough weather but the everyday routine is pretty mundane nowadays and people know this.
I think the above is good in terms of recruitment and the more mundane the job becomes the less glory hunters there will be and people that genuinely want to fly for a living will have more chance.
The job of train driver used to be many peoples dream years ago, can you imagine anybody paying tens of thousands of their own money to drive a train now?
I think the above is good in terms of recruitment and the more mundane the job becomes the less glory hunters there will be and people that genuinely want to fly for a living will have more chance.
The job of train driver used to be many peoples dream years ago, can you imagine anybody paying tens of thousands of their own money to drive a train now?
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I have been flying for a living for nearly 10 years and feel lucky to have done so. However, I don't see myself doing it for much longer and would not advise anyone to undertake flight training. If you already have completed training, don't dig yourself deeper into debt by paying for more training. You can't win by paying for ratings, accepting dock labour style contracts and investing £00000's on maybe's. If you are willing and able to undercut somebody else then another person will do the same to you. The UK pilot jobs market has many things going against it right now and if I lost my job, I know that I would not get another flying job.
UK airlines are quite stagnant and the low cost expansion has probably finished. If you are an experienced pilot, even with an A320/B737 rating, it is very unlikely you will get a job in the UK and will need to look abroad. Yes, there are jobs abroad, if you can get one, but you are going into exile and have little chance of getting back into the UK market. I also expect to see another UK airline in deep financial trouble in the next 12-18 months. A few seem to have overly ambitious expansion plans that could backfire and put pilots out of work. The recent thirst has mostly been for cadets, with many slitting their throats, fighting it out to take dire deals. If you do manage to get a cadet placement, what is your future? Working as casual labour, trying to pay huge debts with an unpredictable income whilst management and new joiners undermine you and your possible career paths? That is a future so dark that you'll need to munch more carrots than Bugs Bunny, to see the way forward.
I know that many of you will have trained when times were better, as did I. But, the game has changed and getting a good flying job has never been harder. If you have another, viable career option take it. Buy a decent computer flight simulator setup and keep your skills sharp. Things can change but for now, put your ambitions on ice.
UK airlines are quite stagnant and the low cost expansion has probably finished. If you are an experienced pilot, even with an A320/B737 rating, it is very unlikely you will get a job in the UK and will need to look abroad. Yes, there are jobs abroad, if you can get one, but you are going into exile and have little chance of getting back into the UK market. I also expect to see another UK airline in deep financial trouble in the next 12-18 months. A few seem to have overly ambitious expansion plans that could backfire and put pilots out of work. The recent thirst has mostly been for cadets, with many slitting their throats, fighting it out to take dire deals. If you do manage to get a cadet placement, what is your future? Working as casual labour, trying to pay huge debts with an unpredictable income whilst management and new joiners undermine you and your possible career paths? That is a future so dark that you'll need to munch more carrots than Bugs Bunny, to see the way forward.
I know that many of you will have trained when times were better, as did I. But, the game has changed and getting a good flying job has never been harder. If you have another, viable career option take it. Buy a decent computer flight simulator setup and keep your skills sharp. Things can change but for now, put your ambitions on ice.
Last edited by Fair_Weather_Flyer; 5th Jan 2013 at 14:00.
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Flight sim
---Exactly, the mystery has gone out of flying and its not coming back, anyone that has played about with flight sim knows whats involved and pilots are no longer looked upon as they once were----
Flexi flyer not sure what your experience is but anyone who thinks a couple of hours 'playing flight sim' gives you a good idea about the role of a pilot is way short of the mark..
I do agree with some of the other stuff you mentioned though.
Flexi flyer not sure what your experience is but anyone who thinks a couple of hours 'playing flight sim' gives you a good idea about the role of a pilot is way short of the mark..
I do agree with some of the other stuff you mentioned though.
Last edited by Cabair351; 5th Jan 2013 at 14:14.
Hi
With the latest add-on for flight sim people are aware of how much of the flight is managed by the FMC and how much is hand flown.
I guess what I am trying to say is whereas years ago people assumed the pilots were flying the aircraft with help from the autopilot, now they presume the opposite, whether this is true or not.
How many times have you heard people say things like 'They fly themselves nowadays dont they?'
With the latest add-on for flight sim people are aware of how much of the flight is managed by the FMC and how much is hand flown.
I guess what I am trying to say is whereas years ago people assumed the pilots were flying the aircraft with help from the autopilot, now they presume the opposite, whether this is true or not.
How many times have you heard people say things like 'They fly themselves nowadays dont they?'
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When I get cornered into talking about my job, I find that people TELL ME that the aircraft takes off and lands itself and they all believe that the aircraft has "a pliot" who is the one who can fly and a "co pilot" which is sort of like a drivers mate who is mostly there to make tea and do the filing. It's just like a transit van with wings, press the go button.... Tickets are purchased as a commodity and piloting skill is taken as a given, as is safety. Accountants think like that like that too and they run the show. Only after an accident will the public and accountants start questioning whether trying to hire the person who will do it the cheapest is the best idea. This has happened recently in the US with a series of accidents meaning changes have been made. One major accident would be devastating to any airline. Until that happens the accountants will just keep cutting deeper and make it a less viable career.
Flexi flyer not sure what your experience is but anyone who thinks a couple of hours 'playing flight sim' gives you a good idea about the role of a pilot is way short of the mark..
Flight Sims may be (in some peoples' opinion ) a useful tool for keeping the scan sharp and/or practicing basic procedures but that's about it.
Even chucking in a few random failures isn't replicating what goes on on the line on an average day, indeed it doesn't even replicate the pressure of an average a sim ride (though I guess you might be getting close if you could get a friendly TRE/IRE to sit behind you
).
With the latest add-on for flight sim people are aware of how much of the flight is managed by the FMC and how much is hand flown.
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Almostgivenup......... I feel for you. I qualified in 2008, having worked as a dispatcher since 2001, and had researched industry, made contacts etc.... and assumed I would land SOME job SOMEWHERE...... A full 5 years on, no closer to that elusive 1st job. £60K, 5 years of modular training, forgone holidays, parties, BBQs, new clothes, cars etc. Delayed having children. Now my wife cannot conceive. Put 110% effort into journey. Just home from 8 hours in a bank earning minimum wage. Sit there thinking "What the @#&% have I done wrong?????" I keep current as my wife states "After all the £%"& you have put us through you are not letting it go...." Answer? I don't know, but you are not alone. My sanity is hanging on by a thin thin thread. Unfortunately being a good person, and an average pilot is not even remotely good enough to help get a job. But I will keep trying, otherwise I will totally crack..... Hope you find the right direction for you.
P.S. Shame about the typical thread creep from others.....
P.S. Shame about the typical thread creep from others.....
Last edited by Flieslikeabrick; 5th Jan 2013 at 17:26.
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my tuppence worth. Done the modular route and in 2006 got my first jet job. have worked for 3 different companys in three different countrys since then. First job was great fun but badly paid in central europe, left after a year to join a company in UK which was excellent but it collapsed after 2.5 years. My third job was in the middle east, very well paid but no life, no time off and minimum rest all the time. I done that for 2.5 years when I decided that being a pilot was not so good for me and the family and packed it in. Of course i enjoyed it as a whole, but it was getting worse and I wanted a life that I could choose where to live and how to live it. I now have gone back to my old job which gives me much better quality of life, can live anywhere i choose (rotational position) its very well paid and theres no Bollsht. My family are happier, I dont suffer from headaches due to minimum rest and constant day/night/day rotations, I have a good pension that I can rely on, my job will not disappear and I have a better life overall. the best thing is I dont spend every spare minute looking for better pilot jobs that dont exist, I now just occasionally keep up to date with avaition.
Being a pilot nowadays means committing everything you ( and everything those around you) have and living out of a suitcase. As much fun as it was, the sacrifice is now too great and its only going to get worse. Except for my second job - a large number of captains I flew with on the other jobs were so numb to flying and so disappointed in the way it has worked out for them that they spend their lives planning what else they can do to get out of it. I wouldnt despair about not living the dream cos the dream turned to a nightmare along time ago, but if your still not convinced then at least have a back up plan cos you will need it. The best thing about flying for me is that I had a choice to get out, make sure you have that choice too.
As my wife says, they could train a monkey to fly these days and they will fly for peanuts. so true.
for sale 4400hrs B737 jet time for what its worth
!!
Being a pilot nowadays means committing everything you ( and everything those around you) have and living out of a suitcase. As much fun as it was, the sacrifice is now too great and its only going to get worse. Except for my second job - a large number of captains I flew with on the other jobs were so numb to flying and so disappointed in the way it has worked out for them that they spend their lives planning what else they can do to get out of it. I wouldnt despair about not living the dream cos the dream turned to a nightmare along time ago, but if your still not convinced then at least have a back up plan cos you will need it. The best thing about flying for me is that I had a choice to get out, make sure you have that choice too.
As my wife says, they could train a monkey to fly these days and they will fly for peanuts. so true.
for sale 4400hrs B737 jet time for what its worth
!!
Last edited by avtur007; 5th Jan 2013 at 20:46.
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avtur007 you could have got a job at monarch and have everything you have now but in the aviation industry ! Opinions are all relative to ones circumstances ! Enjoy that rush hour commute ! Ohhhhh !!!
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I have the same dilema. I don't know if it is better to give up, or trying to work the next ten years like a slave in any job to save the 80.000 euros that I would need to have a minimum chance of geting a job one day.
I can't imagine spending the rest of my life doing something that I don't like. But job oppotunintes are quite few, and specially in my country where the only way of getting a job as an instructor, an airline or crop dusting is with contacts. Companies like Vueling eliminate all CV's of people without a contact in an Airline.
Out of my contry things seems better, and selection proceses look cleaner, but they require a high amount of flight hours, or the local language.
I can't imagine spending the rest of my life doing something that I don't like. But job oppotunintes are quite few, and specially in my country where the only way of getting a job as an instructor, an airline or crop dusting is with contacts. Companies like Vueling eliminate all CV's of people without a contact in an Airline.
Out of my contry things seems better, and selection proceses look cleaner, but they require a high amount of flight hours, or the local language.
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shaun ryder
Probably because you are very disrespectful.
My take on all this is simply to pass a law that states 'ATPL holders need to have a college degree.' Since getting flying experience today is practically impossible, money is the only factor that makes you eligible to fly. So you would make a nice early selection with the education factor plus you would thus insure, that inteligent people are flying the planes.
Probably because you are very disrespectful.
My take on all this is simply to pass a law that states 'ATPL holders need to have a college degree.' Since getting flying experience today is practically impossible, money is the only factor that makes you eligible to fly. So you would make a nice early selection with the education factor plus you would thus insure, that inteligent people are flying the planes.
Last edited by cowhorse; 7th Jan 2013 at 11:33.