The next decision to be made . . . .
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 36
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The next decision to be made . . . .
Hi guys,
I have a Frozen ATPL and 240 flying hours. I'm 24.
Like that of so many others my ultimate ambition is to fly public transport. Since completing my MCC and JOC a few months ago I have satisfied myself that I have applied for every widely known opening that I am eligible for. I could probably get the money for a type rating; I am not willing to join a 'pay to fly' scheme.
Would I be putting myself at a disadvantage by becoming a flying instructor? This may appear to be a stupid question but my concerns are as follows:
I'd be grateful for any advice or any response at all.
Many thanks.
I have a Frozen ATPL and 240 flying hours. I'm 24.
Like that of so many others my ultimate ambition is to fly public transport. Since completing my MCC and JOC a few months ago I have satisfied myself that I have applied for every widely known opening that I am eligible for. I could probably get the money for a type rating; I am not willing to join a 'pay to fly' scheme.
Would I be putting myself at a disadvantage by becoming a flying instructor? This may appear to be a stupid question but my concerns are as follows:
- It would take years to gain enough hours (were I unable to secure a full-time instructing role) to become a more attractive candidate for a FO job than a fresh-faced integrated graduate.
- By building time this way I'd put myself in the awkward experience bracket whereby I'd no longer be 'straight out of training' as some airlines apparently prefer.
- A former airline recruiter once told me that his company was put off by applicants that had extensive SEP experience as they 'would find it difficult to adapt to jets'.
I'd be grateful for any advice or any response at all.
Many thanks.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am afraid that this level of experience isn't, and never has been sufficient for most airlines direct recruitment needs. The exception is those airlines that run cadet schemes usually in conjunction with one of the "big 3" training providers. Beyond those, there are a few companies that may give consideration to low houred candidates. Ryanair is perhaps the most notable, and somebody on these forums suggested that Jet2 may also fall into that category.
Beyond the recognised cadet schemes it is usually a case of "experience" and often that experience needs to comprise more than one part of the possible spectrum.
Instruction (if you can secure a job) is a useful way of building up hours quite rapidly, and whilst it is only one part of the spectrum, it has the dormant benefit of being useful within an airline career (training) many years later.
If you group "public transport" into a number of levels, at the top you have the prime (most coveted) employment opportunities. Below that you have your second and third tier airlines. Many succesful career climbers will have made their way up through these tiers over a number of years.
There are a very limited number of "fast track" routes into first or second or even third tier employment, but they are nearly always tied cadet programmes.
Far too many people have either convinced themselves, or been allowed to be convinced that a CPL/IR and a couple of hundred hours places them on the beauty pageant stage for airlines seeking First officers. It just isn't the case for the overwhelming majority of aspirants.
It is hard to see how a flying instructors job would in any way disadvantage you. It wouldn't prevent you from applying for anything else that might arise.
It would also provide experience, currency, and some income based on the profession you have broadly chosen. The alternative is sitting around as that "fresh training" rots like an apple in a bowl. Instrument ratings need to be renewed on an annual basis, and applications need a currency to keep them fresh.
It might well "take years" to get where you want to be via this route, but there may not be enough years in a lifetime to simply sit around in the vain hope that "straight out of training" wont become very stale very very quickly.
Airline recruiters are not "put off by extensive SEP experience" as many of them and the pilots they employ will already posess it. However going back to my "spectrum" comment, that isn't all that they are usually looking for. They want to see a progression through multi-engine experience and often a reasonable chunk of turbine time as well, depending on the current requirements at the particular tier you are applying to.
The best advice I can give you, is that experience (at any level) can only be a good thing. You then have the opportunity to move up to the next level. It may take more time than you originally envisaged, but sitting around waiting for the top slot, might be a very long wait indeed.
Beyond the recognised cadet schemes it is usually a case of "experience" and often that experience needs to comprise more than one part of the possible spectrum.
Instruction (if you can secure a job) is a useful way of building up hours quite rapidly, and whilst it is only one part of the spectrum, it has the dormant benefit of being useful within an airline career (training) many years later.
If you group "public transport" into a number of levels, at the top you have the prime (most coveted) employment opportunities. Below that you have your second and third tier airlines. Many succesful career climbers will have made their way up through these tiers over a number of years.
There are a very limited number of "fast track" routes into first or second or even third tier employment, but they are nearly always tied cadet programmes.
Far too many people have either convinced themselves, or been allowed to be convinced that a CPL/IR and a couple of hundred hours places them on the beauty pageant stage for airlines seeking First officers. It just isn't the case for the overwhelming majority of aspirants.
It is hard to see how a flying instructors job would in any way disadvantage you. It wouldn't prevent you from applying for anything else that might arise.
It would also provide experience, currency, and some income based on the profession you have broadly chosen. The alternative is sitting around as that "fresh training" rots like an apple in a bowl. Instrument ratings need to be renewed on an annual basis, and applications need a currency to keep them fresh.
It might well "take years" to get where you want to be via this route, but there may not be enough years in a lifetime to simply sit around in the vain hope that "straight out of training" wont become very stale very very quickly.
Airline recruiters are not "put off by extensive SEP experience" as many of them and the pilots they employ will already posess it. However going back to my "spectrum" comment, that isn't all that they are usually looking for. They want to see a progression through multi-engine experience and often a reasonable chunk of turbine time as well, depending on the current requirements at the particular tier you are applying to.
The best advice I can give you, is that experience (at any level) can only be a good thing. You then have the opportunity to move up to the next level. It may take more time than you originally envisaged, but sitting around waiting for the top slot, might be a very long wait indeed.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 36
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Bealzebub, I appreciate your advice.
Someone that I know recently secured a 737 job with 230 hours and a three week-old MCC certificate. This development made me question whether or not I'd be doing myself more harm than good by getting into instruction. It's not that I don't want to or that I'm desperate to do fly a nice shiny jet without having to wait for it - as long as it's not to my detriment I'm very keen to instruct.
Someone that I know recently secured a 737 job with 230 hours and a three week-old MCC certificate. This development made me question whether or not I'd be doing myself more harm than good by getting into instruction. It's not that I don't want to or that I'm desperate to do fly a nice shiny jet without having to wait for it - as long as it's not to my detriment I'm very keen to instruct.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: In the SIM
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
applicants that had extensive SEP experience as they 'would find it difficult to adapt to jets'
Flying jets is simply different to flying light aircraft, and once you have secured your first job the airline will give you all the correct tools to be able to be a competent first officer.
There is no doubt that the whole system of sliding into the right hand seat of an airliner has changed, and self improvers are a dying breed, however, you will do yourself no harm from instructing.
All the best with it mate.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am always amazed to see this kind of question popping after a maybe expensive CPL-IR and expensive and most of the times useless MCC/JOC/TR...
This question should have been a concerned at the PPL level. You have trained to be a first officer, now getting an instructor rating with the hope to get a C150 job is a bit weird.
If you want to be a flight instructor here is the route: become a glider or ultra light instructor, make some contacts, then get a cheap CPL and instructor rating, get an instructor job thanks to your contacts and your instructor experience, at around 2000 hours get your multi, IR and theory ATPL, instruct multi IFR, at around 3000 hours get a MCC, you should be able to secure a first officer job on small turboprop and continue to climb the ladder from there.
This path is progressive, unexpensive, almost risk free career wise.
You haven't choosen this path and started to get ready to be trained as a non experienced first officer by spending huge amount of cash already. I would say be logic and continue. Maybe buy a type rating, you have entered the lottery system where essentially money and luck makes the difference.
Going for instructor on small airplanes and its low wage now after all the monney you have already spent might make you a frustrated worker for YEARS. In addition the instructor path is not an easy one, if it happens you don't like it and become a bad instructor, it will be hard to make contacts and progress to the multi/IFR instruction that opens many doors.
Spend some more in a type, go abroad maybe to improve you chance at this lottery mad game you have accepted to participate, there is some hiring, who knows...
This question should have been a concerned at the PPL level. You have trained to be a first officer, now getting an instructor rating with the hope to get a C150 job is a bit weird.
If you want to be a flight instructor here is the route: become a glider or ultra light instructor, make some contacts, then get a cheap CPL and instructor rating, get an instructor job thanks to your contacts and your instructor experience, at around 2000 hours get your multi, IR and theory ATPL, instruct multi IFR, at around 3000 hours get a MCC, you should be able to secure a first officer job on small turboprop and continue to climb the ladder from there.
This path is progressive, unexpensive, almost risk free career wise.
You haven't choosen this path and started to get ready to be trained as a non experienced first officer by spending huge amount of cash already. I would say be logic and continue. Maybe buy a type rating, you have entered the lottery system where essentially money and luck makes the difference.
Going for instructor on small airplanes and its low wage now after all the monney you have already spent might make you a frustrated worker for YEARS. In addition the instructor path is not an easy one, if it happens you don't like it and become a bad instructor, it will be hard to make contacts and progress to the multi/IFR instruction that opens many doors.
Spend some more in a type, go abroad maybe to improve you chance at this lottery mad game you have accepted to participate, there is some hiring, who knows...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 36
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CAT3C, thanks for your input and support.
KAG, thanks for responding. You're right in the sense that I haven't spent all of this money with the intention of ending up in a Cessna 150 (as much as I like them) but I'd rather fly something and be of some use to somebody in an aviation capacity than hang on for an unlikely break. You mention buying a type rating; it seems to me that buying a type rating without a concrete offer of employment is akin to putting all of your eggs in one basket.
KAG, thanks for responding. You're right in the sense that I haven't spent all of this money with the intention of ending up in a Cessna 150 (as much as I like them) but I'd rather fly something and be of some use to somebody in an aviation capacity than hang on for an unlikely break. You mention buying a type rating; it seems to me that buying a type rating without a concrete offer of employment is akin to putting all of your eggs in one basket.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bristol
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You need to fly
Hi
I would very much recommend that you instruct otherwise you'll likely be asking yourself in a years time why you didn't do it... Not only do the Airlines(mostly)like people who've come from a teaching background but also you will become a more accomplished and confident flyer as a result...
This choice is a no brainer as long as you have 6k for the rating...
I would very much recommend that you instruct otherwise you'll likely be asking yourself in a years time why you didn't do it... Not only do the Airlines(mostly)like people who've come from a teaching background but also you will become a more accomplished and confident flyer as a result...
This choice is a no brainer as long as you have 6k for the rating...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 36
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your advice about keeping flying is, I'm sure, very sound indeed Ramshorn. Whatever my course of action I'll endeavour to maintain flying currency, even if doing so results in nothing more than me having a good time. As far as my decision about instructing goes I suspect it might all come down to whether or not I could realistically expect to get a reasonable amount of work. If I could only pick up an hour or so per week in the medium term then I'd have to question the worth.
I should probably try to get a better understanding of the instruction market at this point!
Thanks for posting.
I should probably try to get a better understanding of the instruction market at this point!
Thanks for posting.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Instruction is a real job with huge responsabilities, not a market to be studied by a jobless new CPL holder.
So how to deal with new jobless CPL holders? Make them train some new CPL holders. How much sense does it make? It looks like a pyramid scheme scam.
There is a time to think, and a time for action. You already have your CPL, ATPL theory, and MCC, time for action now. Focus, and maintain your heading while you are in the game and your fresh CPL skills are still with you. Aviation that's not philosophy and thinking about theories, and you already have spent the big bucks anyway: ACTION, go and fly, meet some people, change country. You should be able to deal with an engine fire and land with part of your airplane burning (it has happened, it could be part of the job), so it's time for you to deal with you career even without the structure of the training environment you just got out from.
Go fly a glider, get a caravan F/O position with susi air, find a crappy C210 job in Africa, keep some money for a rating (it has almost became the rule to pay for a type for some companies, pilot is a slave worker), go work at the dispatch of a small company, move your ass be a pilot.
Now that you realized the nice airlines were not waiting for you, go and get some flying experience and enjoy. Next step will come on time if there is enough oil available and if we are not back in a recession by then...
So how to deal with new jobless CPL holders? Make them train some new CPL holders. How much sense does it make? It looks like a pyramid scheme scam.
There is a time to think, and a time for action. You already have your CPL, ATPL theory, and MCC, time for action now. Focus, and maintain your heading while you are in the game and your fresh CPL skills are still with you. Aviation that's not philosophy and thinking about theories, and you already have spent the big bucks anyway: ACTION, go and fly, meet some people, change country. You should be able to deal with an engine fire and land with part of your airplane burning (it has happened, it could be part of the job), so it's time for you to deal with you career even without the structure of the training environment you just got out from.
Go fly a glider, get a caravan F/O position with susi air, find a crappy C210 job in Africa, keep some money for a rating (it has almost became the rule to pay for a type for some companies, pilot is a slave worker), go work at the dispatch of a small company, move your ass be a pilot.
Now that you realized the nice airlines were not waiting for you, go and get some flying experience and enjoy. Next step will come on time if there is enough oil available and if we are not back in a recession by then...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 36
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KAG, I completely agree with you on your points about responsibility and I'm struggling to find anything that I've written in this thread that shows a disregard for your sentiment.
With regards to your suggestion about working in dispatch all I can say is that I have worked in the operations departments of two airlines and that by having a discussion on this topic we are digressing.
With regards to your suggestion about working in dispatch all I can say is that I have worked in the operations departments of two airlines and that by having a discussion on this topic we are digressing.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't take it too personal.
I should write a bit nicer, I admit it. I am a former paratrooper and ve never hesitated to go anywhere around the world several times to get the next pilot job. So reading somebody who is asking question about time building with instruction and who probabely never worked passed a perimeter around his place of birth makes me want to boost him a bit. Nothing against you.
An other thing, when I saved enough money to get my training, I looked anywhere to find an operation that might hire me after training. I found it and had to change continent for my training. It was in a nice country hopefully, but it could have been on the north pole or Siberia I would have gone the same.
Seing people going to any flight school in order to get a CPL and no job behind makes me wonder...
Cheers.
I should write a bit nicer, I admit it. I am a former paratrooper and ve never hesitated to go anywhere around the world several times to get the next pilot job. So reading somebody who is asking question about time building with instruction and who probabely never worked passed a perimeter around his place of birth makes me want to boost him a bit. Nothing against you.
An other thing, when I saved enough money to get my training, I looked anywhere to find an operation that might hire me after training. I found it and had to change continent for my training. It was in a nice country hopefully, but it could have been on the north pole or Siberia I would have gone the same.
Seing people going to any flight school in order to get a CPL and no job behind makes me wonder...
Cheers.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: ?
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bravobravo,
ANY additional experience to your initial training is a good thing. Why on earth could someone possibly think it's not? There's a FI sponsorship in the UK, did you know? Try! You might get lucky.
An another note, you're in your early 20s, young man, supposedly you managed to secure yourself that 737/320 job now. What then? You will have - assuming you keep your medical - 35 years of flying ahead of you. You will make it to captain within say ten years, what then? 25 years of doing the same thing day in day out? All novelty of flying a new aircraft will have worn off after I would say 1-2 years. Nothing new then. Day in, day out, same sh**.
Progressing up the latter is a damn good thing. Teaches you A LOT. And: you will appreciate all the goodies your colleagues take for granted and chances are you'll be one of the few happy pilotos in the company.
Also, climbing the ladder will earn you respect, as people know how hard your way up there has been!
I myself am flying a light twin. You know what, you're going to laugh but even if offered a jet job now, I would not want to take it. I really enjoy the type of flying I do and I am learning A LOT. Next step has to be a TP, do that a couple years, maybe gain a command, who knows. Bottom line is, it's exciting, always something to look forward to, to work towards.
And on a last note, a couple years ago, I was offered a job on another light twin. My first contact was a mere phone call to the company and I happened to get the owner on the phone right away. I had about 400h TT by then, most accrued on SE work (my first flying job was SE but no FI work). I was asked to submit my CV then invited for interview a few weeks later. They were not really looking but the guy was interested I could tell. A months later another interview, going up with him showing him that I could maintain a track, etc. Another six months later and I was finally offered the job. So it took me nearly a year to get that offer. But you know what? Did I take it? No. Got some other offer and went for that...
All the best mate! You'll be fine. Just keep flying, keep flying! If I were you, don't just fork out the money for a FI rating. Go join a gliding club first and go flying and meet people and try to find a flying job without spending an extra 7k. Many GA / airline pilots are also glider / ultra light pilots. Go find and meet them. That's the only way. But doable.
ANY additional experience to your initial training is a good thing. Why on earth could someone possibly think it's not? There's a FI sponsorship in the UK, did you know? Try! You might get lucky.
An another note, you're in your early 20s, young man, supposedly you managed to secure yourself that 737/320 job now. What then? You will have - assuming you keep your medical - 35 years of flying ahead of you. You will make it to captain within say ten years, what then? 25 years of doing the same thing day in day out? All novelty of flying a new aircraft will have worn off after I would say 1-2 years. Nothing new then. Day in, day out, same sh**.
Progressing up the latter is a damn good thing. Teaches you A LOT. And: you will appreciate all the goodies your colleagues take for granted and chances are you'll be one of the few happy pilotos in the company.
Also, climbing the ladder will earn you respect, as people know how hard your way up there has been! I myself am flying a light twin. You know what, you're going to laugh but even if offered a jet job now, I would not want to take it. I really enjoy the type of flying I do and I am learning A LOT. Next step has to be a TP, do that a couple years, maybe gain a command, who knows. Bottom line is, it's exciting, always something to look forward to, to work towards.
And on a last note, a couple years ago, I was offered a job on another light twin. My first contact was a mere phone call to the company and I happened to get the owner on the phone right away. I had about 400h TT by then, most accrued on SE work (my first flying job was SE but no FI work). I was asked to submit my CV then invited for interview a few weeks later. They were not really looking but the guy was interested I could tell. A months later another interview, going up with him showing him that I could maintain a track, etc. Another six months later and I was finally offered the job. So it took me nearly a year to get that offer. But you know what? Did I take it? No. Got some other offer and went for that...
All the best mate! You'll be fine. Just keep flying, keep flying! If I were you, don't just fork out the money for a FI rating. Go join a gliding club first and go flying and meet people and try to find a flying job without spending an extra 7k. Many GA / airline pilots are also glider / ultra light pilots. Go find and meet them. That's the only way. But doable.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 36
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No problem KAG and thanks for your continued input.
Piloto2011, thanks very much for posting and for your words of encouragement. I'm aware of the GAPAN FI sponsorship if that's what you're referring to - I'll go for that one if/when it re-opens. On another note it's nice to hear from a pilot who's completely satisfied with what they're doing - fair play to you.
Piloto2011, thanks very much for posting and for your words of encouragement. I'm aware of the GAPAN FI sponsorship if that's what you're referring to - I'll go for that one if/when it re-opens. On another note it's nice to hear from a pilot who's completely satisfied with what they're doing - fair play to you.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: ?
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No worries. Your welcome.
Just one last line. Try avoiding to post leads to jobs on here as you're competing with hundreds, if not thousands, others out there, most of which keenly monitoring, ready to jump at any opportunity. Rest assured I'd love to see everyone out there get in but unfortunately that's not what the world is like. You might have recognized, I did not give away the name of that sponsorship scheme as you will now have ever so many more people applying. So, in short: Be creative. Quick. And smart.
Good luck!
Just one last line. Try avoiding to post leads to jobs on here as you're competing with hundreds, if not thousands, others out there, most of which keenly monitoring, ready to jump at any opportunity. Rest assured I'd love to see everyone out there get in but unfortunately that's not what the world is like. You might have recognized, I did not give away the name of that sponsorship scheme as you will now have ever so many more people applying. So, in short: Be creative. Quick. And smart.
Good luck!
