A320 Rating, Low hours

[Merrey]

Hi all,

This is a shot in the dark and I am sure in a day or two this thread will of gone completely off topic and a debate will be going on about something else.

I have an A320 type rating, 170hrs on type an I was working for an airline until the contract was taken from underneath me and they decided that a job wasn't available any more. Oh the joy's of fine print.

I understand I am not in the worst position in the world but unless you have the magic 500 hours you can't really do anything........or can you? I am looking high and low so if anyone has any advice that might help I would really appreciated it.

I hope someone can offer me some advise, even if it is just a website I haven't yet tried.
Thanks,


how after 500 hours can they say your now experienced, isn't that like the view that when you wake up on your 25th birthday you are now a safe driver????

[Superpilot]

Unless you have contacts, the only way out will be to self fund the hours (yes P2F). Such places are difficult to secure as there is so much competition right now. A sad state of affairs but this is the way it is now (took me years to accept).

I don't mean to sound horrible, but the excuse you've put out for only managing to get 170 hours will not wash off with many who will view you as someone who was let go due to performance over 4 months of line flying. Especially if it's a large or expanding airline. Or you're telling porkies and it was really P2F that you did? It's unfortunate but people make these conclusions (and worse ones) and don't have the time to listen to excuses, genuine or not. I've seen it all in nearly 3 years of searching for an A320 job.

On the other side, if you network and network well with TRIs and the like (lets say a couple of sim hours every 3 or 4 months) then your chances of getting noticed will increase. Ultimately you'll meet someone in a position to do you a favour. All minimum hours rules can be bent to an extent and there are no insurance minimums for time on type that I know of within Western Europe. In fact it sounds like because it would imply that an airline pilot converting from one type at an airline to another would have no job at the end!

Good luck

[Merrey]

Thank you John_smith, my point was more on why and how they come about the number of 500 hrs? Why not 200, or an amount of time in months?

An super pilot, if you advise stands true I am guessing then that you are now in a job for an airline? Or are you still going down the road of your advise and looking for a way in?

So if anyone can give or offer real advise please PM me or put it up in here. I have been scanning Pprune for a few days to look for useful advice and it seems that most people who have a job are not offering up any, an for the most post people get berated or belittled for asking. Any constructive help would be welcome.

[usualguy]

I have over 2000h tt, A320, 2.5 years looking: still no flying job
a friend: 5000h, 320 rating, and never got a job on the 320.

I don't undertand the point to spend all these years of training and job looking and get nothing at the end.Please explain me?

I am looking somewhere else, another market, I think the airline industry is over for me and I am not 20 years old anymore.

So why looking? If i am lucky to get a job for 1-2 years, and lose my job for any reason , I will have a hard time to get a job back.

I am still thinking to not renew my 320, and give up totally aviation.
I don't think 170h on line will do much difference for you.Too much competition.

3 years ago, I had a friend (I lost contact), told me the same, 300h on the 320, 2000h total as a flight instructor , and he didnt' find a job.

[Dct_Mopas]

Thank you John_smith, my point was more on why and how they come about the number of 500 hrs? Why not 200, or an amount of time in months?

I'd take a guess that after 500 hours on type even the newest of new pilots have successfully completed line training and a recurrent 6 month simulator session as a minimum.

You mention why they don't use a time period but with such huge variations in yearly hours flown between airlines 500 hours could be gained anywhere between 5 - 12 months. So it isn't a consistent benchmark for experience.

It will be difficult for you to explain the reason why you only have 170 hours on type, it raises a significant number of questions which will need to be answered in depth to any recruiter. Unfortunately every A320 FO position I've come across requires more experience on type than what you have (even so the recent BA scheme required only 100 sectors or 500 hours in a jet aircraft as per the JAA zft training requirement).

[ElitePilot]

What is you're total time?
There are jobs out there unfortunately not in Europe though have you tried any of the Asian carriers as that is where all the expansion is?

[chimichanga]

Yes, you are not in a good position. I would try every A320 operator out there in the world now, before you go non-current and turn into a pumpkin. After that it is pretty much game over.

[usualguy]

yes,game over for all these pilots who have decided to pay them self a rating like me.I give another year, if nothing good, I give up.

I will never do it again even with a job promess.
You never know when the airline will be bust.
It happen to one guy I know, sent for his 320 type rating, when he arrived to the trto, the company told him not to come back anymore.they have been shut down.
It was kalifa.

There is simply not enough jobs for everyone, and it 's not worth the investment I think.I have been through 2 crisis and I am tired of it.
Sad but true.it would be very nice, if you pay for your rating, and 2-3 days later you get a job for life.But this is not the world where we live now.

This market has deeply changed since these last 3 years, and many pilots don't want see the reality. Even sending your CV is pointless. I am sorry for you ( and I am sorry for myself too). Let them pay, or fly just for fun with a PP.

Unless there is a big pilot shortage, like retirement, and a big expansion in europe, it would worth to continue, but I think this market is saturated from everywhere since 2006- 2007(the peak in employment of these last 30 years) and it' s now time to give up than spending more money in a system which put all of us down.The futur for the new pilots coming behind us will not be treated better.

[ElitePilot]

I agree the market in Europe is saturated but thats not factual of the airline industry as a whole.
The middle east has huge orders and seems to be attracting alot of the ryanair workforce to the likes of Emirates for example. This opens the doors if FR floats you're boat.
Then further east you have Air Asia taking over the world with huge orders along with Vietnam, HKA, Jetstar, Tiger etc etc...
If you have experience it is sure easier to get in if you're persistent and motivated.

[usualguy]

If you have experience it is sure easier to get in if you're persistent and motivated.

and how do you get experience?
I want explain you a few thing: China by exemple are hiring like crazy, they run cadet schemes, but don't take anyone from outside China.
They run their training program with flight schools in the USA(flight safety,...) and chinese are not good pilot due to their communist indoctrination.They don't care. They want chinese citizen.
You must be chinese. Pretty much if you don't get a job at Ryanair, your career is pretty much over.

Does it really worth to spend all this money just for a shot at Ryanair or finish with a small job on a single engine plane in a remote country paid less 1000$ a month with banks asking you how you will pay back?Not for me, now I would have prefer to invest my money in an house and persue a real career with real money and real people around me.

in Saudia,or Qatar, it's the same problem.they don't want EU pilots.
And same for south Asia, DCA doesn't allow expat copilot to get job.
Now I see more and more Cadets programs, when the world is already filled with unemployed pilots who are desperate for their first job and this industry stabs us.It's a digrace. an insult...(my last insult was we don't want you, you are over 37, nothing to discuss, good bye)

You must be extremly lucky to get a shot at ryanair, make a few years in Ireland, then move to Emirates.

Well, this is what I think, I hope I am wrong, but good luck to you. We will see in 3-5 years who was right.I will quit in 1 year if the situation doesn't improve.I can simply not stay at home all day, waiting for an interview.We are simply too many chasing for the same dream!

[japanam]

Hmm. Ok, so usualguy, you've stated your opinion and I just had to interject and state mine.

First, I understand your frustration toward the industry and it's quite obvious you're "pissed off" at this whole situation. However your negative attitude and resignation toward succeeding in a career you've invested so much time, effort and money in is just not going to help matters any.

What I can contribute to this thread is:

1.
China does hire foreign FOs. Obviously if you go through any contractors, they most likely will not forward your resume. However, if you actually do the research, and trust me if you look you will find, and contact them personally, there is a good chance of getting in IF you meet their requirements. I personally know of an Americans, French, Canadians, Singaporeans and Koreans that have been picked up by Chinese carriers without any jet time, just the type. I also know of a Japanese that has been picked up as a FO with type and some jet time (i.e. <500 hours).

Oh, and before you go ranting that they must have married a Chinese girl, NO, not all of them. Yes some have, but others have gotten in without marrying for a visa.

2.
I know of many "single engine" jobs that pay upwards of 3000 - 4000 USD ++ (as seniority and loyalty) increases. Again, you have to meet requirements, i.e. don't just get your commercial then go invest in a type rating in hopes of jumping the cue, but make your experience commensurate to certificates and ratings. By the way, let me add that the people that got hired in China, all they had was >2000 piston hours total with >500 on twins.

3.
I also know of a few pilots that have gotten hired onto the bus and other turboprops in SE Asia. Again, their experience was >2000 hours in pistons, but they go hired. Some bought type ratings, some did not. All I can say is NONE of them took the "line training" track.

So, I don't know where you get your information from, but opportunities do exist. I know for a fact. You just have to be persistent with open eyes I guess.

My OPINION is this; before you go out and make assumptions or write comments based on your intuitions, I would suggest you do a little more research. Like I said, and this comes from personal knowledge, opportunities are out there. My other recommendation is this, maybe if you took a moment and SPELL CHECKED, and EDITED your CONTENT for GRAMMAR, airlines and others will consider you even further?! It would also increase your credibility even on PPRune!

[cerealkiller]

I can simply not stay at home all day, waiting for an interview

I'm back to my previous job while waiting, there's no need to stay at home waiting.
Fortunately I built up a computer science career before going for the pilot dream, so I always had a safe "place" where to go back.

Giving up on it is not for me.

[ElitePilot]

Japanam great post couldnt agree more...

Usualguy. The original poster has time on type all be it 170hrs but nevertheless that is enough if like Japanam said is enough to get in with a bit of luck and determination. Also of course the networking and knowing people to pass you're cv to the right person can help hugely.
How do you get the experience? This has been done to death on other threads but as an example Susi Air in Indonesia are looking for lots of pilots... sure it's not a shiny jet but its a multicrew operation which certainly counts on the cv and in some states towards ATPL issue.
You say you will quit in 1 year if the situation doesn't improve like you're owed a job it doesn't work like that. Nor does "staying at home all day..." Nothing is stopping you carrying out another job or in the meantime banging down doors for interviews instead of blindly firing off cv's.

Cerialkiller great attitude to have. The time, sweat, money and effort to get licensed up is certainly not worth throwing away best of luck it will happen!

IMHO...

[airmiles]

Asia

@Japanam

You said "I know of many "single engine" jobs that pay upwards of 3000 - 4000 USD ++ (as seniority and loyalty) increases."

I have looked into the Asian market and I agree with you that there are many jobs there, but a lot of the companies want you to have the right to work there or able to speak Chinese. I do not have either of those requirements. Would you care to enlighten me about the SE jobs as I will apply to those, but I have not found those. May I ask, do you have a job in Asia? I guess you are from Japan considering your name.

[usualguy]

hello again,

Susi Air is not looking for lot of pilot, I sent my CV a few times and they told me I have too much experience for them .I bet if I call them, and ask them if they are desperate like you say , they will tell me it' s not true.

There is no shortage of pilots in this industry, pilots fall from the trees when I shake them and employers got ton of CV on their desk.They even keep them on their desk during the interview(happened to me 3 times) to show us they can do whatever they want with us.
I will look for smaller planes because I think too many pilots want fly the big jets and willing to work for free which is not my cup of tea, not at 40.
By chance I got JAR and FAA, and I am thinking to give up my JAA ticket and stay with my never expired 30'000$ FAA certif .
Converting to JAA was a big pain and now I regret it.I should have stick with the FAA.

As for asian jobs like in malaysia, it's a no go for low hours expats, it 's a requirement from their DCA. The only jobs you can get is as a flight instructor, but again, you must have hours and experience.
You can still try China, I think the schools there are closed, like bejing panam. I have been invited a few years ago to go there.The rest of jobs are for 320 captain mainly and the only jobs remainng are pay to fly job like in Indonesia.

I have tried everywhere like this guy who use Kash as a pseudo, this guy has no flying job, and he has really looked everywhere. No need to look too hard in this bad economical climate. This industry is very cyclic, but since 2008, I see things are not really improving except for the new BA schemes.
a few years ago there were jobs , but now I see many companies are out of business, and the pilot requirement is not like 2006-2007.Immigration is harder on us. We are not welcomed in foreign countries.

and about spell mistake on this forum, people don't really care, I got jobs just by showing my face to recruiter with my CV in my hand or sending my CV by email.Nobody care if I write good in english.

find a chick, go cinema,and enjoy life...

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