To fly, or not to fly?
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To fly, or not to fly?
Firstly, thank you to anyone who has initially taken the time to read this post!
I'm a first-time poster who has been reading around the forums for a while, and now really want to get my own answers and specific advice instead of just picking up tips and advice from other posts.
I'm 17 years-old, shortly turning 18, and have dreamed of flying for many years. I had a short spell in the ATC before the intense revision for GCSEs started, and have several relatives already working in aviation (Most likely where I got the aviation bug from, thanks Mum!).
I'm hoping to start training for an integrated ATPL at OAA in January 2012 (leaving me enough time to turn 18, and also enjoy my Christmas!), and genuinely will work as hard as possible to achieve the highest pass rate's and exam results in ground school and rating training to make sure I can end up near(ish) at the top of my class.
I've done my research - I know the current state of the global, european and British economies are all pretty awful and even our attempts to 'repair' it are being built on unstable foundations, but this hits every occupation, not just airline pilots.
Things are starting to brighten up though, right? BA and Virgin have opened up there Direct Entry Pilot Schemes, several airlines are bringing out their cadet schemes, and of course airlines are starting to look ahead to their 78's and 380's which will soon be joining their fleets. Isn't all this enough to kick-start aviation employment for airlines?
I mean, it's a cycle really. With BA and Virgin hiring, they're going to be taking F/O's and captains from the likes of Easyjet, Flybe, Bmi etc., which then leaves the spaces in these airlines for new recruits straight out of training - and then of course there's the practicality of major airlines such as BA and Virgin training experienced captains in their 40's and 50's to get TR's on the 78's and 380's - it's really not a long-term solution, and surely they'd much rather have younger pilots in who in the long run will be more efficient after the expensive TR training?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I expect airlines to be knocking on everyone with a fATPL's door and getting them to dot the i's and cross the t's, but surely it makes it a more open, opportunistic market?
And really, other jobs aren't much better - you spend a minimum of 3/4 years at uni on about £12,000 a year working for a degree, and at the end of that you leave uni (with a slightly excessive alcohol intake!) joining the queues of hundreds and thousands of unemployed people fighting for the same job as you, with the same qualifications too!
I was wondering if any current airline pilots (especially if you are involved in recruitment!), airline training pilots, students etc. etc. , could give me some advice on what i should be doing while I'm at Oxford?(hopefully), what I should expect when I graduate from Oxford?(albeit if it is in Spring 2013!), and what I can do to make sure I have a better, or equal chance as every other pilot fighting for jobs with low-cost airlines to get their foot in the flight deck door.
Any advice is greatly appreciated,
Thanks.
I'm a first-time poster who has been reading around the forums for a while, and now really want to get my own answers and specific advice instead of just picking up tips and advice from other posts.
I'm 17 years-old, shortly turning 18, and have dreamed of flying for many years. I had a short spell in the ATC before the intense revision for GCSEs started, and have several relatives already working in aviation (Most likely where I got the aviation bug from, thanks Mum!).
I'm hoping to start training for an integrated ATPL at OAA in January 2012 (leaving me enough time to turn 18, and also enjoy my Christmas!), and genuinely will work as hard as possible to achieve the highest pass rate's and exam results in ground school and rating training to make sure I can end up near(ish) at the top of my class.
I've done my research - I know the current state of the global, european and British economies are all pretty awful and even our attempts to 'repair' it are being built on unstable foundations, but this hits every occupation, not just airline pilots.
Things are starting to brighten up though, right? BA and Virgin have opened up there Direct Entry Pilot Schemes, several airlines are bringing out their cadet schemes, and of course airlines are starting to look ahead to their 78's and 380's which will soon be joining their fleets. Isn't all this enough to kick-start aviation employment for airlines?
I mean, it's a cycle really. With BA and Virgin hiring, they're going to be taking F/O's and captains from the likes of Easyjet, Flybe, Bmi etc., which then leaves the spaces in these airlines for new recruits straight out of training - and then of course there's the practicality of major airlines such as BA and Virgin training experienced captains in their 40's and 50's to get TR's on the 78's and 380's - it's really not a long-term solution, and surely they'd much rather have younger pilots in who in the long run will be more efficient after the expensive TR training?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I expect airlines to be knocking on everyone with a fATPL's door and getting them to dot the i's and cross the t's, but surely it makes it a more open, opportunistic market?
And really, other jobs aren't much better - you spend a minimum of 3/4 years at uni on about £12,000 a year working for a degree, and at the end of that you leave uni (with a slightly excessive alcohol intake!) joining the queues of hundreds and thousands of unemployed people fighting for the same job as you, with the same qualifications too!
I was wondering if any current airline pilots (especially if you are involved in recruitment!), airline training pilots, students etc. etc. , could give me some advice on what i should be doing while I'm at Oxford?(hopefully), what I should expect when I graduate from Oxford?(albeit if it is in Spring 2013!), and what I can do to make sure I have a better, or equal chance as every other pilot fighting for jobs with low-cost airlines to get their foot in the flight deck door.
Any advice is greatly appreciated,
Thanks.
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and then of course there's the practicality of major airlines such as BA and Virgin training experienced captains in their 40's and 50's to get TR's on the 78's and 380's - it's really not a long-term solution, and surely they'd much rather have younger pilots in who in the long run will be more efficient after the expensive TR training?
The great thing with being 40 or 50, is that you potentially have 15-25 years of employment ahead of you (you will be 42 then!) There are no end of replacement people advancing into this age range. Much as we all look forward to the "planet of the teenagers" it is still only a frightening scenario at this point.
Before you are too quick to write off the 40 and 50 year "oldies" take a look at the age of the people who will be potentially be training you. Look at the ages of the airline interview panels. Look at the ages of mum and dad who will no doubt be expected to finance all of this.
When you graduate from Oxford and are "fighting for those jobs" I suggest you take a slightly broader outlook on the real world. Of course, you could suggest these ideas to those who train and recruit and then train and promote. Maybe they will agree with you?
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First, I agree with previous answer.
Now, I spent part of my life looking for a way to fly. I am 41 and I am flying, now. But it took me some time. I guess that you have two possibilities: either you join a major as a cadet. Then, you don't have to pay anything, you have a good salary and you fly nice aircraft. At the end of your career (not at the beginning), you may even fly the A380.
Some additional info, at this point: the price of a TR is not proportional to the size of the A/C. An A320 simulator is as expensive as an A380 one, more or less. ANd if you have to train on a lighter aircraft (corporate) for which no sim exists, then you will have to train on real A/C and this may exceed the price of an A380 TR.
Second option: you cannot join a major. Then, all routes are possible, from never flying at all, to direct entry on A320 with a self sponsored TR... The route I followed is not the one you will follow, and what's working today may not work tomorrow.
You may hear (read) older pilots telling you that flying directly on jet A/C is a non-sense. They are probably right. BUT. In the past, most of them had the opportunity to start on propeller A/C, then to move on turboprop then jet. Perfect. Today, if you start on propeller and you want to fly something else, they will ask you "How many hours on Turboprop ?". If you decide to self sponsor a B1900 TR, you may fly, but you will be paid peanuts. "Doesn't matter", you will think, "cause I am building up FH". Yes, maybe. But when you'll go for an interview for jet, they will ask you "how many hours on jet ?".
I have a former colleague, he was a captain on corporate jet, had several thousands of FH. When he went for an interview for A320, he was asked "how many hours on glass cockpit ? None. Oh, sorry, I should have better read your CV. Good bye."
I am not telling you should not start. I am just telling you: stop dreaming, take information everywere, fly as much as you can, because experience is finally always what they want, be ready, flexible, always consider several alternatives for the future (work on ground if you cannot fly, but in aeronautics, consider expat, consider putting your money in instructor training, but also Citation TR, etc.). Then, decide, by yourself. Know that you are buying a LOTO ticket and you should be the only one who decide the numbers. For some time, you may not meet the requirements (not enough FH, enough FH, but not on turboprop, not on jet, not on glas-cockpit...).
And one day, you will be at the right moment at the right place.
Now, I spent part of my life looking for a way to fly. I am 41 and I am flying, now. But it took me some time. I guess that you have two possibilities: either you join a major as a cadet. Then, you don't have to pay anything, you have a good salary and you fly nice aircraft. At the end of your career (not at the beginning), you may even fly the A380.
Some additional info, at this point: the price of a TR is not proportional to the size of the A/C. An A320 simulator is as expensive as an A380 one, more or less. ANd if you have to train on a lighter aircraft (corporate) for which no sim exists, then you will have to train on real A/C and this may exceed the price of an A380 TR.
Second option: you cannot join a major. Then, all routes are possible, from never flying at all, to direct entry on A320 with a self sponsored TR... The route I followed is not the one you will follow, and what's working today may not work tomorrow.
You may hear (read) older pilots telling you that flying directly on jet A/C is a non-sense. They are probably right. BUT. In the past, most of them had the opportunity to start on propeller A/C, then to move on turboprop then jet. Perfect. Today, if you start on propeller and you want to fly something else, they will ask you "How many hours on Turboprop ?". If you decide to self sponsor a B1900 TR, you may fly, but you will be paid peanuts. "Doesn't matter", you will think, "cause I am building up FH". Yes, maybe. But when you'll go for an interview for jet, they will ask you "how many hours on jet ?".
I have a former colleague, he was a captain on corporate jet, had several thousands of FH. When he went for an interview for A320, he was asked "how many hours on glass cockpit ? None. Oh, sorry, I should have better read your CV. Good bye."
I am not telling you should not start. I am just telling you: stop dreaming, take information everywere, fly as much as you can, because experience is finally always what they want, be ready, flexible, always consider several alternatives for the future (work on ground if you cannot fly, but in aeronautics, consider expat, consider putting your money in instructor training, but also Citation TR, etc.). Then, decide, by yourself. Know that you are buying a LOTO ticket and you should be the only one who decide the numbers. For some time, you may not meet the requirements (not enough FH, enough FH, but not on turboprop, not on jet, not on glas-cockpit...).
And one day, you will be at the right moment at the right place.
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Speedbird13,
I am a recent graduate from Oxford (2 weeks ago), looking for employment. you are not wrong in your asessment of how the likes of ezy and fr are, and will continue to pick up pilots. Oxford has a very good deal with easyjet where they take a lot of graduates, whilst also taking experience as well for a good mix.
You will get a lot of people coming on here who will advise you not to go to Oxford, who will downplay the quality of training, but this is the case with all the decent schools. alot of biterness. I worked extremely hard at Oxford and beleive me its no tea party, but I am confident I made the right choice and my timing is good. Oxfords level of training is very high, the CAA examiners who do Instrument ratings can see the quality shine through in an Oxford student, with high levels of airmanship and handling to name just a couple of positives.
If you do start when you say you will there is very little (bar a terrorist attack slowing down passenger uptake) to suggest that you would not be entering at a good time, the only way is up from here, and there are potential signs of the likes of BA starting to take fresh graduates next year and onwards, they always did, and for a reason.
If you work hard and achieve your goals you are an attractive prospect and Oxford will make sure of it. saying that i can not emphasise how hard you have to work; ground school is tough and requires ALOT of work. we have seen those who dont put the work in fail exams and be recoursed or even leave altogether. saying that though you do not need to be massively clever, it is the application that gets people through.
moving on to the goodyear phase of training, its great fun visually flying around there. but also hard work.
its the instrument phase back in the UK that really requires the graft, but it is massively rewarding. when you can fly to Bristol purely on instruments and no visuals, go down the ILS, go-around, suffer an engine failure in the climb, divert to Gloucester and land on the ndb you know you have achieved something. the reward comes after in the 737 sim. the quality of instructors, especially IR, at Oxford are second to none, that I guarantee you, they have so much experience in airlines and general aviation that they pass on.
Not only do I think that Oxford has made me a good pilot, but it has rounded me as a person. If I were you I would not rule out University, I know, had i gone at the age of 18 I would not have been ready for the task. If you think you are then you may well be, that is just my case.
Good luck and I hope this helped, feel free to ask me any questions.
I am a recent graduate from Oxford (2 weeks ago), looking for employment. you are not wrong in your asessment of how the likes of ezy and fr are, and will continue to pick up pilots. Oxford has a very good deal with easyjet where they take a lot of graduates, whilst also taking experience as well for a good mix.
You will get a lot of people coming on here who will advise you not to go to Oxford, who will downplay the quality of training, but this is the case with all the decent schools. alot of biterness. I worked extremely hard at Oxford and beleive me its no tea party, but I am confident I made the right choice and my timing is good. Oxfords level of training is very high, the CAA examiners who do Instrument ratings can see the quality shine through in an Oxford student, with high levels of airmanship and handling to name just a couple of positives.
If you do start when you say you will there is very little (bar a terrorist attack slowing down passenger uptake) to suggest that you would not be entering at a good time, the only way is up from here, and there are potential signs of the likes of BA starting to take fresh graduates next year and onwards, they always did, and for a reason.
If you work hard and achieve your goals you are an attractive prospect and Oxford will make sure of it. saying that i can not emphasise how hard you have to work; ground school is tough and requires ALOT of work. we have seen those who dont put the work in fail exams and be recoursed or even leave altogether. saying that though you do not need to be massively clever, it is the application that gets people through.
moving on to the goodyear phase of training, its great fun visually flying around there. but also hard work.
its the instrument phase back in the UK that really requires the graft, but it is massively rewarding. when you can fly to Bristol purely on instruments and no visuals, go down the ILS, go-around, suffer an engine failure in the climb, divert to Gloucester and land on the ndb you know you have achieved something. the reward comes after in the 737 sim. the quality of instructors, especially IR, at Oxford are second to none, that I guarantee you, they have so much experience in airlines and general aviation that they pass on.
Not only do I think that Oxford has made me a good pilot, but it has rounded me as a person. If I were you I would not rule out University, I know, had i gone at the age of 18 I would not have been ready for the task. If you think you are then you may well be, that is just my case.
Good luck and I hope this helped, feel free to ask me any questions.
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YES YES YES and YEEEES...
airline still need plenty of pilots. you are RIGHT!!!!my god, we need YOUUU asap...we need more people like, so smart, and intelligent, and you have even a cristal ball, again, the woooow factor struck us to moon...simply: you are an MAZING piece of tennager. OXFORD, uhuhuh... now i have an erection!
send me your money i will train you for 190'000 euro.ask your daaaaady!!!!
0 hours, to airbus 500 line traiing, woooow!
PM me.
who's next?
for me you are just a piece of lazy boy who play the smart guy. go UNI and get a life, smartpant!
airline still need plenty of pilots. you are RIGHT!!!!my god, we need YOUUU asap...we need more people like, so smart, and intelligent, and you have even a cristal ball, again, the woooow factor struck us to moon...simply: you are an MAZING piece of tennager. OXFORD, uhuhuh... now i have an erection!
send me your money i will train you for 190'000 euro.ask your daaaaady!!!!
0 hours, to airbus 500 line traiing, woooow!
PM me.
who's next?
for me you are just a piece of lazy boy who play the smart guy. go UNI and get a life, smartpant!
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@Bealzebub - I apologise if my post came off as offensive, it's just my teenager senses tingling and me being overly naive! 
I obviously assumed that most F/O's on the 78's and 380's would be newly recruited, but didn't really think that through in terms of them both generally being LH fleet, which in itself requires something like 8 years as a SH pilot taken in straight from flight school, or 2000TT for Direct Entry or something very similar.
So I do apologise for that part of my post!
@Askell - Obviously I'd love it to be as simple as getting a lucky break, finishing up at OAA just as BA are hiring new fresh-out-of-training FO's to fly their A319's & 20's, but I'm looking to cover every possible scenario so that I'm not left dumbfounded and clueless and with a £70,000 loan to pay back!
My immediate second step would probably be to self-fund a TR on 319/320/321 with MCC, which can be done for around £15,000. I'd leave line training to the airline I'd hopefully get a contract from, but surely as a potential candidate with my own TR for a very widely-used SH/MH aircraft, I would hopefully be seen as 'more qualified' than a candidate with only his/her fATPL and no previous experience/qualifications since leaving flight training?
I know BMI recruitment can be as low as just 100 hours PIC, an fATPL and IR - and although their current recruitment is pretty much zero, considering their Captain to First Officer ratio at the moment and with their new a/c orders, I think by 2013 they'll probably be recruiting to some extent, and with a type rating to fly on their main three a/c I'd stand out from the other young candidates, or would this not be the case?
@Jakelowe444 It's great to have someone who's just finished to give me their take on things!
What're you planning on doing now to secure a job/extra training etc.?
Have you had any responses from airlines with interview offers at all?
ALSO, a bit off topic, but did you self-fund your course or take out a loan? I want to add up the pros and cons of both to find the best solution really!
Thanks!
I obviously assumed that most F/O's on the 78's and 380's would be newly recruited, but didn't really think that through in terms of them both generally being LH fleet, which in itself requires something like 8 years as a SH pilot taken in straight from flight school, or 2000TT for Direct Entry or something very similar.
So I do apologise for that part of my post!
@Askell - Obviously I'd love it to be as simple as getting a lucky break, finishing up at OAA just as BA are hiring new fresh-out-of-training FO's to fly their A319's & 20's, but I'm looking to cover every possible scenario so that I'm not left dumbfounded and clueless and with a £70,000 loan to pay back!
My immediate second step would probably be to self-fund a TR on 319/320/321 with MCC, which can be done for around £15,000. I'd leave line training to the airline I'd hopefully get a contract from, but surely as a potential candidate with my own TR for a very widely-used SH/MH aircraft, I would hopefully be seen as 'more qualified' than a candidate with only his/her fATPL and no previous experience/qualifications since leaving flight training?
I know BMI recruitment can be as low as just 100 hours PIC, an fATPL and IR - and although their current recruitment is pretty much zero, considering their Captain to First Officer ratio at the moment and with their new a/c orders, I think by 2013 they'll probably be recruiting to some extent, and with a type rating to fly on their main three a/c I'd stand out from the other young candidates, or would this not be the case?
@Jakelowe444 It's great to have someone who's just finished to give me their take on things!
What're you planning on doing now to secure a job/extra training etc.?
Have you had any responses from airlines with interview offers at all?
ALSO, a bit off topic, but did you self-fund your course or take out a loan? I want to add up the pros and cons of both to find the best solution really!
Thanks!
