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Enough is enough

Old 21st Mar 2011, 16:54
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Because you can't live from dreams or dreams with debts that's why. I'm a wannabe and I realise this very well. I hear friends of me -who are doing their ATPL's- sayin:, I borrowed money from my parents and I'll 'only' (!) have to borrow 30.000€ from the banks+ my typerating. This is insane.
I'd rather keep flying as a hobby with a nice job, then to be depressed because I don't have a job as a pilot, have all my licences, spent very much money on it and maybe lost all I had on the way.
Was it painful to face it? Yes. It still is from time to time. But this is not a dreamworld where you can realise everything you want in life.

Last edited by Poeli; 21st Mar 2011 at 17:52.
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Old 21st Mar 2011, 18:36
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a friend fo mine once worked as a flight attendent while waiting for the cockpit job. In the end it was good experience in the airline life, and fairly good pay, too.... and when the market reopened, she got that front seat. Is that something you might consider?
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 01:16
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Enough is enough?

Hi ya'll ppracticallybroke, excellent username!....I have a t-shirt which says 'I started out with nothing, and still have most of it left' Ultimately - only you can decide what is best for you - maybe look up Edward De Bono's Six Hats (parellel thinking tool) - this could help you explore your dilemma fully, looking at the issues from all angles enabling you to make an 'informed choice' Am sorry to hear about your friends' troubles, - the C.A.B./other agencies can offer advice/support for debt issues. I have experience of workin' in the field of Mental Health - and as others have posted - please advise your lady friend to seek urgent support/counselling.

Some advice I was given recently was -'Follow your bliss' .......I wish you all the best whatever you decide.......
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 13:33
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alternatively, if you have no debt, why not get a loan, pay for a type rating and actually get a job?

there will now follow posts from the 'don't pay for TR' brigade, but these are the times we are in, like it or not.
That is one way of looking at it, another is the reason people are paying to do type ratings is because some people are prepared to pay for type ratings, and so the vicious circle begins. If everyone sat on their hands and refused to pay for the type ratings, the likes of Liarair would have to re-think their recruitment strategies.
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 20:55
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First there was CAA, then JAA, then EASA

Courses: CPL/IR/ME, then MCC, followed by JOC, now MPL, TRs, Line trainings, First Officer accelerated, Interview preps with experienced captains

What is next in this bottomless financial pit? Space shuttle type rating

Anyone knows where I can buy Boeing 747 captancy, I might as well aim for the top rather than pay £100k line experience to get £20k a year first job?
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 22:23
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Anyone knows where I can buy Boeing 747 captancy, I might as well aim for the top rather than pay £100k line experience to get £20k a year first job?
Eagle Jet International, Inc. Scroll to the bottom, 747 Captaincy for sale
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Old 22nd Mar 2011, 22:58
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Unbelievable, makes me feel sick. Does anyone know who runs Eagle Int and how they share profit with airliness they use for line experience?
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 02:05
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"..........Boeing 747 captancy, I might as well aim for the top rather than pay £100k line experience to get £20k a year first job?"

What on earth makes you think being a B747 Captain is "the top"? To me it's about life style. I know people who fly 10% of the flying a B747 Captain would do and on better pay than most of them.

Don't get carried away with size.
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 06:45
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Does anyone know who runs Eagle Int
an named stephane, frenchy...
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Old 23rd Mar 2011, 07:27
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I think it was a joke doubleu-anker. Don't take too literally
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Old 1st Apr 2011, 11:17
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Sad story but it's all about perspective.

To be sure your situation is a sad one but not uncommon I'm afraid. My mid life career change to ATPL didn't work out at first either but I went back to my old IT career as a contractor, earned fab money for 18 months, did a bit of private flying and luckily got a call from Flybe.

Been flying 4 years now for them and am happy I made the career change even if my bank manager isn't. Truth is though that even when you make it to the right seat of an airliner with a major airline after a while you start to want to work less days for more pay on heavier metal - so I'm still frustrated and so are all the co-pilots I know. Truth is that we work bloody hard to take home £2000 a month, it's not enough for a good lifestyle and the time off stinks (a weekend is one usable night here). I suspect if I managed to get into one of the quality outfits - charter/BA/Virgin I might finally sit back and think 'I made it' because it doesn't feel like it from where I'm currently sitting.

What I'm trying to say is that this job may not live up to your expectations anyway if you end up working for a LCC (except maybe Easyjet) because there are just too many people earning more money easier in other ways.

My advice for what it's worth would be to get yourself the best paid job you can in the meantime. Take 6 months off from worrying about flying, enjoy life, go for a beer, take a holiday and then reassess. Sounds like letting the rating lapse a few months is no biggie. I actually took over 12 months out from applying to airlines and had a bloody good time during my IT contracting 18 months and not thinking about it really helped me get it in perspective because the whole thing had made me completely miserable. At the end of the day your hobbies, family, girlfriend, kids are what's important not bloody flying a piece of metal around the sky 4 times a day and missing your kids birthday while you do it!

It really isn't the be and end all. In fact it's no more enjoyable than doing lots of other things like being a tree surgeon, selling fancy cars, working as a photographer, being cabin crew, working in the military. There are loads of interesting things to do with your life that don't involve getting up at 4am and feeling knackered most of the time!!

Anyway, hope this helps and I wish you the best of luck. Incidentally the tree surgeon one is interesting - I talk to one of those regularly and he loves it - fresh air, more work than he can handle, countryside, work when he wants, loves wood, a real man's job, using his expertise and more money than I make doing this... Makes you think doesn't it?
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Old 1st Apr 2011, 13:30
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Incidentally the tree surgeon one is interesting - I talk to one of those regularly and he loves it - fresh air, more work than he can handle, countryside, work when he wants, loves wood, a real man's job, using his expertise and more money than I make doing this... Makes you think doesn't it?
funny you mention that, my next door neighbour's tree surgeon used to be a pilot, he gave it up to start the tree work and enjoys it more (and makes more) than he did flying apparently.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 18:45
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No to CTC

I've been keeping an eye on the industry while I worked my way through Uni. Fully intended to go through with it when I graduated this May with an Aeronautical Engineering degree. My job prospects are alright - no solid leads but placement experience and a couple of interviews coming up - including one for CTC which I intend to turn down.

Its been very difficult to decide not to follow the dream of flying, but when I look at the possibility of spending £100k (probably having to beg my parents to remortgage the house) with an additional £30k on type rating and floundering in the holding pool for a year, I realise that it's just not a sane thing to do.

I may leave uni without a job and I may end up stuck in an office, but if I'm honest with myself, CTC is not looking like the dream that I imagine it to be.

Face the facts and weigh up your options. If you can justify it to yourself, then go for it.
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Old 5th Apr 2011, 08:56
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CC - sounds like you have a very wise head on your shoulders.

You don't have to give up on your dream. Get a decent job, live life a bit and do your flight training modular.

Takes a lot of the pressure away from the all or nothing integrated scenario and you get to live a little and enjoy your flying in the meantime.

You have time on your side.
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Old 5th Apr 2011, 09:22
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My attitude towards flying has changed completely - when I left integrated I thought I have to be flying the RHS of a jet - financially the money would help - but honestly now I have a stable 9-5 job, I fly at weekends, and love being around the apron meeting new people. I feel like I cheated a bit by doing an integrated course, and now I'm doing what I should have done which is building up my experience the hard way, something I believe is far more rewarding. I think there is so much to learn in aviation that we don't learn during an integrated course - and whilst I might be able to fly an ILS or an NDB approach - there is a lot to learn from people who've flown every weekend for the past 30 years. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that if something came up, I'd reject it in favour of GA, I'm just not desperately looking for a hole to throw 30k down.
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Old 5th Apr 2011, 12:29
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I know exactly how you feel, been there got the t shirt. I got my licence hot off the press in 2005 and am still looking. My last revalidation was in 2007 (expired 2008). The renewal is 5 years from expiry of the last IR renewal so that gives me another 2 years grace if I need it. I am looking to renew this year though.

Since qualifying I did all the usual CV bashing and butt licking but to no avail. I got one interview and sim ride with a good company but the rejection letter almost beat me back home. Due to lack of funds and seemingly going nowhere I walked away for a couple of years, but it was always there in the back of my mind, and I was always on PPRuNe or pilot jobs sites keeping an eye on things. The FI route never appealed, not that there was any work going anyway. Just over 2 years after I qualified the recession hit and companies were going bust. Almost everyone I knew from my training days(even those with FI tickets) were coughing up serious money to go to FR. I like to think I am a flexible person, and I would be willing to come to some arrangement over funding any TR with the right company, but I won't do this with FR under the current conditions they use. I won't spend £30k just to be dicked about. If FR just made a few changes to how they operate I would seriously consider them, but they won't. I was recommended to another company but they required a JOC so that was the end of that. Despite my referee having been with the company for many years, his letter was effectively rejected. I have my theories as to why, and they involve deals done elsewhere with certain flying schools.

I don't see myself as a jet god either. I would be happy in a King Air for the rest of my career. I am also not the job hopping type, so I am happy to commit many years to the right company. Investment is a 2 way street.

Like everyone else on here, I love flying with a passion, any flying, but I won't sell my soul and ruin my life just to get in the air. I will see how things go over the next year or two, and will give it my all again if things start to show a large improvement. After that, I will be classed as too old and not fit for training despite my excellent training record.

Good luck to all in the same position.
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Old 11th Apr 2011, 08:36
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My fellow dodo, I sympayhize and can relate 100%. I would try and enjoy other aspects of life and accept that the worls is currently in the s***e and will be for the forseeable future. My last IR revalidation/renewal in FNPT2 was 26 months ago. Has been of no help. Don't put it to rest permanently, but accept a timeout. Remember the 5 years only. I found it very hard to swallow my pride and accept the situation, but think I have now come to terms as best I can. Work in a bank, home everynight by 6pm, every weekend off, bank holidays etc... Money is poor, but the lifestyle beats my 8 years as a despatcher at LGW. Some days I wonder how hard it would be to go back to airline hours????? (A friend of mine who now flies for DHL based in Germany, who has had to leave wife and newborn in West Sussex makes me wonder why i even want to fly....) I know it is of no real help, but remember it is not you personally. Supply vs Demand. We have been sold a dream, aviations version of the timeshare. Life is short, so get some pleasure out of it. I am going to start flying a PA28 again this summer for FUN. Keep your chin up, and remember (unfortunately) you are not alone.

Hopefully this makes you smile.

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Old 11th Apr 2011, 08:45
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good post.

life and family are more important than the flying bug.

I am going to buy a high tech computer and install a simulator.

who want pay me to fly my sim?
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Old 11th Apr 2011, 15:55
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@practicallybroke - I'm very sorry to hear your sad cautionary tale. You're not alone mate. There are many, many people in your position. I know it's no consolation. I shall send you a PM with my further thoughts. As for the actual question you posed, I think others have answered it with more insight than I can offer you.

@WWW - Well done for making this a sticky thread. It should be read by all people considering entering the aviation industry.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 10:45
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Originally Posted by ppracticallybroke
So in 2006 I had my own home, a great job and nice girlfriend. But I cashed in all my chips and began integrated flight training in Jan 2007. Well you guys know what happened at the back end of that year. Now I am not here to moan. I may now be unemployed, 33, living with my mum, totally broke, single and unable to get work of any sort ... even McDonalds don't want pilots, but I am one of the lucky ones.
I am new to this forum and reading a number of these threads has been an eye opening experience.

I wonder how many of us as young children had dreams of being a pilot? For the lucky few these dreams actually become a reality, but for a significant number we are left looking at our model aircraft dangling from the ceiling and having to make other decisions about our futures.

My thoughts regarding your post is first and foremost ‘Health!’ Sit down for a minute and take a deep breath. What is this burning ambition doing to you health wise? From your posts it appears that your desire to become a professional pilot is ruining your life and I have to ask, “Is it worth this?”

It would be great if you could fulfil this ambition but try to be realistic and think about you as a person and what is happening to you.

Have you really thought about what else you might want to try? What is it that might take the place of flying?

Have you perhaps considered applying to any of the cruise lines? This is an industry that is recruiting, I have no idea about their terms, conditions or pay, but you will see the world, and possibly be able to put money in the bank and maybe keep up the flying, but in the meantime you will be exploring the World and maybe even enjoying yourself?

This is just one option that you might want to dismiss but please, please think about other careers as life is way too short and we all only get one bite at it. You are at present letting life go by and in the meantime you are making yourself ill

Good luck with whatever decision you make
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