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Enough is enough

Old 31st May 2011, 23:37
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I think a few of you guys are missing the point slightly.

You are claiming that 25k a year is not great money in comparison to life in the right hand seat? Tell that to the numerous guys who have their licence, and cant get a job....25k a year suddenly becomes a great deal of money. Even of the guys who are working in the right hand seat after getting their licence, many will not be earning as much as 25k. And that's after spending up 100,000 pounds on a licence followed by an extra 20,000 on a type rating

I'm not suggesting that there is no money in aviation, but to go into your training with the assumption that you will immediately get a place in the right hand seat of a shiny jet is not only speculative, it's ridiculous.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 12:24
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It is very difficult to find a job where one can earn anything like a SFO salary without at the very least an undergraduate degree.
Indeed it is difficult - and it's even harder to get an airline job.

Plenty of other jobs around that pay the same or more without the effort required to be a pilot
Tell that to the numerous guys who have their licence, and cant get a job....25k a year suddenly becomes a great deal of money.
I would give anything for a 25k a year job right now. In fact I was never looking to flying as a means to making big money - I'd settle for 30k a year whether I'm flying a jet or sitting behind a desk.

The problem with flying is that it is something that gets into people's blood. Yes there's the prospect of good money and the status but a lot of people just want to fly regardless of that. Otherwise why else would they still be going to flight schools and training for a career that has blatently low odds of success.

I'm not suggesting that there is no money in aviation, but to go into your training with the assumption that you will immediately get a place in the right hand seat of a shiny jet is not only speculative, it's ridiculous.
I quite agree. There are plenty of career choices out there that will have a high chance of success and decent money so why are people investing huge amounts of money and time chasing an inevitable failure? There might have been a time when it was possible to think "I want to be a pilot", do the training and land a job fairly easily. But these times are long gone for the forseeable future. The state of the airline industry is abundantly evident but people refuse to believe the reality and ignore the warnings. Something about flying makes people hell bent on pursuing it at any cost and makes them believe that they are invincible...other people may not be succeeding but they will, because they're different.

Maybe a doctor or a lawyer doesn't earn as much as an experienced pilot but at least they can graduate in the knowledge that they will have a high chance of a career, at the end of it, with a decent income and good benefits. In fact I woud not recommend pilot training to anyone at the current time, instead I would suggest the health-care profession or engineering - both are on the UK skills shortage list and are crying out for qualified people. Make's far better sense on paper but if you have that itchy flying bug in your blood...
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Old 8th Jun 2011, 20:24
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With everyone talking about money, could i quickly ask, do you think I would be raving mad to give up a self employed 150,000 a year job to try to become a pilot?
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Old 8th Jun 2011, 20:44
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if income is a motivating factor, then you would be looking maybe a fifth of your current income as a kicking off point and maybe 8 years to get to the income you are at now, and of course with the way T&C are going what a high end salary will be in 8 years is anyone's guess.
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Old 8th Jun 2011, 20:51
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"""With everyone talking about money, could i quickly ask, do you think I would be raving mad to give up a self employed 150,000 a year job to try to become a pilot?""

I think you would be raving mad to remain in a job that pays peanuts... Go for it... get your wings and fly like a bird
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 14:29
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It's usually the people you meet along the way which lead to the opportunities, and the only way you will meet these people is by surrounding yourself with them
It's funny though : despite every effort made by many schools to asscociate their brand to some airlines, creating "ad hoc" courses, and despite the P2F philosophy, still the main pattern involves pure relations...
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 19:16
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One should only become a pilot in these times if you truly Love this profession ( make sure this is your PASSION ). If you get into it for money or status then eventually you will suffer. The late nights, reducing T & C's etc. can only be put on the back burner if you are fascinated by this profession.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 20:13
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I can't just sod off to Africa or to some other obscure country. I can't afford to spend years shoving baggage around Stanstead for minimum wage. I don't have the time or money to do an FI rating and nor can I afford to live on FI wages (assuming I could even get a job doing that) much that I'd love to
Perhaps you should find the time and money because the above was my route into the industry and it's done me no harm..!
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 02:20
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Idiocy

How pompous, Craggenmore. Finding time is relatively easy, by just stopping work. Finding money is impossible, given the above. The days of moving from FI to any old airline job are long gone. You old farts in the sandpit are clearly out of touch; just stay where you are and stop dispensing nasty advice.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 02:50
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It seems to be a general theme among so called "experienced pilots"

Completely out of touch with reality of what it takes to get a job today vs before.

Not only are they out of touch with reality, many of them are making money on wannabes wanting to get their first job! It is is easy isn't it to take others for a ride, and make them part with their cash so you can add a bit to your own pockets!

Funny, there is a company offering job possibility on a twin piston, wanting 6000 to train the pilot to fly! This is in the UK! Now this is on an aircraft that you do not even require a TR, but they invent their own little rules to make some more money!

These companies should expect as little loyality as they pay for newbies. I know many proper decent captains/FO's who are sad to see the state of the T's and C's of pilots today, equally there are those taking major advantage of this.

It seems there is an agenda to not upset the pilots well established, however there are plenty of established pilots ready to insult a newbie not seeing any other way into the business then having to play large price for their TR's or/and line training!
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 09:21
  #71 (permalink)  

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A Job wont fall from the sky, considering the way aviation is nowadays. One needs to make an effort. What is the problem with Craggenmore's comment? Quite a few of my pilot friends back home started their aviation career in Africa, it was hard but paid dividends.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 10:14
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What is the problem with Craggenmore's comment? Quite a few of my pilot friends back home started their aviation career in Africa, it was hard but paid dividends.
There's plenty of African pilots looking for work as well.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 13:12
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I can't just sod off to Africa or to some other obscure country. I can't afford to spend years shoving baggage around Stanstead for minimum wage. I don't have the time or money to do an FI rating and nor can I afford to live on FI wages (assuming I could even get a job doing that) much that I'd love to
well, that' s the industry, what did you expect?, get a jet job?, or a well paid job as a FI right after school?

what I see, most of us coming out of school have a high nose attitude and we fall from very high when we discover the market is not going in the same way as we would like.

This is life! life goes on and you have to paddle like crazy, you win one day, you lose the other day. All you have to do is to make work your little brain and forget the surge of flying, the "me me me " nasty attitude.try to work on who you know. instead.

if you anderstand this, you will have a better life!

(in my point of view,pilots are the bigest egocentric in the world)

Last edited by captainsuperstorm; 18th Jun 2011 at 13:24.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 14:39
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From one of your posts Bloggs that you've made in the few months you've been a member on these forums......
That does not preclude me from offering advice to the chap who has been experiencing difficulties.
When I finished flight training I had so little time and money I needed to do something about it. I desperatley wanted that precious first job flying but had no more money to carry on flying.

I got a job as a baggage handler at LHR whilst sending out CV's. Months later having got nowhere, I now had, at the very least, some money behind me. This gave me choices. I could either fly VFR during spare time to keep my hand in (more pointless than not I thought) or I could put the cash into something within the industry. So I enrolled in a Flight Instructor rating.

After passing the FI course I quit the baggage job having gained employment teaching PPL at a small school near London. For me, this was a turning point. It does the soul wonders to be paid to fly, to see hours going in the logbook each day and not at your expense for a change!

After several hundred hours now in the logbook and a known name around the flying club bar I had an offer to join the local air taxi outfit on the same day a cadet training provider wanted me to start a three week MCC/JOT which if successful meant a RHS at easyJet.

Passing the training providers selection was made far easier as (1) my scan and hand flying was in good shape and (2) I had many answers to their flying related questions at interview. "Tell us something that no one else here at this selection has already told us today? Well sir, I can load a Jumbo right down to a Fokker 50 in double quick time Sir".

As funy as it seems that answer helped seal it and all in that interview room knew it. I was the only one in the group who had put themselves through that kind of job to stay within the industry after initial flight training. Lucky perhaps but the more I loaded that baggage at 4am in the cold and rain, the luckier I became.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Would I be where I am now without the above - Who knows but doors opened because of what I did and that's the point. Sending out CV's from a bedroom would have achieved far less.

Looking back, I made some good friends and met some interesting people and I'm glad I mastered how to fly and talk at the same time whilst instructing.

So where from I sit, like I said, it never did me any harm. Perhaps Ill go to Africa and bush fly in the twilight of my career, but at least I get to fly there with my current airline.

So Bloggs, nasty advice? Not yet 40 either........

Last edited by Craggenmore; 18th Jun 2011 at 14:52.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 17:52
  #75 (permalink)  
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I'm glad I mastered how to fly and talk at the same time whilst instructing.
I really know what you mean!

I have flown with some pilots UNABLE to talk and communicate (about pitch, rudder, speed...) during the flare. Those are among the ones with no instructor background, each time.
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 16:03
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Honestly, I must really admit it : an FI rating is much more worth than a FATPL nowdays, economically speaking...Not to mention the experience you really build.
Unfortunately an FI position is often considered by many chaps a step you have to do while waiting that right seat job on a turbine aircraft that you have been dreaming for years. Too many instructors take it that way. Schools know this and underpay them or do not trust them enough... This is the path that took also this job to a dead end...
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 16:50
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I honestly feel that ignoring the legacy carriers for the moment, being a positive proactive person with some interest about them goes far further than experience etc. My last two airlines recruited more on amiability and the assumption that my experience was valid for their operation than any psychometric test. You've done the easy bit, anyone can get a license if they apply themselves enough (within reason), for you now the hard work really starts.

If you are really serious about flying then you need to take positive steps to get your name known. Meet people. Build relationships with people that may be in a position to help you out in some way, be it direct employment, information/leads or yet more contacts. Whether you feel it or not, you ARE a commodity now that you have your license, what you must do now is sell yourself - that doesn't mean brash statements about how skilled you are of course, it means you must get out there and market.

You make your own luck. It will most probably take time. Ultimately its a lottery but if you play the game often enough and more often than the next guy/girl then you have more chances of winning than they do.

A lot of people will fall by the wayside which is great so long as you're not one of them. Stay positive, you will gain your goal if you want to. In many ways the current recruitment situation is dire and interviews are few and far between. The simple fact is you WILL get an interview eventually if you stick at it and if you're a half decent chap/girl with a positive attitude and an interesting story or two about how you coped/tackled finding a job then I would put money on you being offered the job then and there!

People in the industry do empathize with people struggling to get their first job and most of us want you to succeed and will help out if we believe you're a good chap and we are in a position to do so. We were almost certainly there ourselves at one point or another.

My previous point about getting out there and meeting as many people connected to the aviation world as possible is absolutely key.

Above all stay healthy and manage any debt you may have sensibly.
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 16:59
  #78 (permalink)  
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Unless you can afford to go integrated and get a type rating or have the necessary prerequisites for CTC I wouldn't recommend anyone self funds a CPL fATPL IR anymore.

Times changed drastically following 9/11. Goal posts shifted and some (myself included) got caught out. Not to worry, everything happens for a reason.

I would recommend flight training as the rising aviation industry. ME IR instructors are few and far between and the money is pretty good for those suitably qualified. Forget airlines, the backside has fallen out of the starting salaries and you have to seriously slog it for many years now to get into that all hallowed jet job if you came via the modular route and even then you'll probably be worked to breaking point and be paid peanuts in comparrison to 10 years ago.

Have a look at the Cathay CPP scheme for qualified CPL holders with +250 hours. More sacrifice but might be worth a shot to those stuck between a rock and hard place still dreaming of the airline life?
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 16:59
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Jimbos Jet,

Very well said!!!
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 09:59
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most people I know who have no job, all hold the same speech:
" you have to know people","there are jobs out there ", "keep current","jobs will come"...and bla bla

then I see the " well said", "you are right man","yeah, it will come",... bla bla

but guys, you still have NO job! so stop the delirium!!!
what say your momy when you wake up at 12 everyday, stay in pijama all day watching TV? and you tell to your lovely mom that there are plenty of jobs , they are desperate for pilots, they need pilots, bla bla..

you license in fact is to pilot a TV remote control, ahaha!.

Last edited by captainsuperstorm; 1st Jul 2011 at 22:44.
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