Easyjet New Ab-initio scheme :)

[Zippy Monster]

And still they come...

You have read the post just above your own, haven't you?

[rssfed23]

I've got through to stage 2

Waited 3 years on gaining "life experience" and saving some none

This thread has definitely given me some insight, and starting to think twice now

But I've also gotta ask; looking at all these "can't get a job" threads, with the slightly higher of getting an (admittedly "rubbish") job at the end - is the integrated (f)ATPL route any better in the current climate :s

It's gonna be a hard decision, with strong opinions on both sides

[redsnail]

It's a free world and it's your choice, but HundredPercentPlease is correct WRT the new contracts offered to CTC newbies.

[Bealzebub]

I know I called the truce Bealzebub, but why isn't it the young pilots fault?

Can you honestly tell me that guys like this are not destroying our profession?

Yes I can.

Let me take you back to the decade you were born in. The seventies.

Select and "approved" flight training schools provided what were the equivalent of todays integrated training courses, designed towards fast track airline employment. In those days outside of one of these courses the minimum hours requirement for a CPL was 700. Very few people were recruited outside of these integrated courses with a mere 700 hours. Most airlines set a mimimum standard of 1500-2000 hours with around a third of that total being on turbine powered aircraft. That also being pretty much what you still see today.

Integrated flight schools such as Hamble were providing an in house ab-initio airline course to their parent companies cadet programme, The parent was BEA and BOAC, later to become British airways.

Commercial flight schools such as CSE Oxford and AST Perth provided similar full time approved courses that in many cases were also used as the feed in programmes for a range of independent airline companies.

Hamble was eventually sold off and the cadet training passed on to one or other of the independent "approved" integrated schools.

This situation persisted through the cyclic economic peaks and troughs of the eighties, and nineties and into the new millennium.

These schools provided a limited number of cadets and also a number of integrated course trained pilots, into the general marketplace.

Most recruitment (in the independent sector) came from the established sources, those being the experienced career pilot and the military.

Were these people as supine as you suggest? Apparantly not, and there certainly was no outcry from the professional pilot workforce or the trade associations (unions.)

In the late nineties and through the next decade, changes in the regulation and licensing structure allowed a new and expanded set of training providers to come into the marketplace and offer integrated training courses. In a few cases these providers targetted two sets of customers. One was the potential trainee pilot market. The other was the airlines for whom they offered a cost effective cadet training programme. These schemes proved very successful by and large.

A consequence of the new regulation and licensing structure, meant that the old 700 hour (non-approved) CPL requirement, was changed to a mere 250 hours. This was to bring the requirements more into line with those that existed in most other ICAO member states, whereby the licence was more of an "aerial work" licence, rather than an airline qualification.

Many wannabes failed to understand the significance of that. To be fair they were encouraged to do so, by some of the outspoken proclamations of one or two high profile CEO's of the then newly created and rapidly expanding low cost carriers. Who can forget the vocally expressed desire to simply do away with first officers altogether? Likewise, the subsequent pronouncement that cabin crew could adequately fulfill the role with only basic training. No wonder the idea was fostered that airlines were all going to open the doors to anybody with 250 hours and a licence. However they didn't.

The cadet schemes which had been around for decades expanded. Then came the recession. On top of the rising levels of experienced pilot unemployment, and the overseas migration for work, the cadet training programmes also started to clogg up as the customer airlines stopped recruiting the graduates. The fiscal banking crisis caused unsecured lending to evaporate overnight and dark clouds loomed on the horizon.

So here we are today. The survivors are those that have been able to streamline and continue to sell their product, be that airlines, flying schools or indeed any other business. There are some signs of clouds breaking on the horizon.

As things pick up, so the previous status quo will start to resume. However that resumption will be an increase in employment oportunities for experienced pilots and cadets from integrated, affiliated training providers. That is where things were left off pre-recession. The cheap money has gone. It never was inexpensive, but now it will become more expensive, and the risk is likely to be considerable for some time to come.

Todays market is simply an evolution of that that existed in the seventies, the eighties, the nineties, the naughties, and right up to today and well into the foreseeable future. Did we all blame the cadets of those last four decades for whatever woes we might have suffered? No, we didn't. Were they supine for taking the opportunities available to them? No they weren't! Is it a dark and weak aspect of human nature to seek a scapegoat when we feel our personal security and comfort is somehow threatened, be that immigrants, people of other races, religions and nationalities? Unfortunetaly a few use it as their rallying cry.

Wannabes today are faced with a set of choices that are in fact simply an expansion and evolution of something that has been around for a very long time. If the managers, training captains, senior captains, captains, senior first officers, first officers and unions have seen a developing problem (as you would allege) and done nothing to prevent it, then I would suggest the supine behaviour doesn't rest with young trainees, cadets and wannabes. It would (if it exists) rest a little closer to home. These cadets are not destroying the profession, and attempting to blame them for the realities of todays marketplace is most certainly spineless behaviour in itself.

[Callum Riseley]

This is not the CTC Flexi-Crew scheme and is completely different. It is not a fixed term contract and there is a minimum winter hours guarantee in place. Loan repayments do not have to be payed off until 18 months after graduation. That 18 months will include 8 months during line training on a measly allowance and then onto the full hourly pay. The pilots can expect pay at a minimum of £40,000 a year. With a £90,000 loan that leaves one with about £25,000-£30,000 a year, plenty for the student to live off unless they are planning to buy a mansion and a BMW within the first year. I don't see how people like myself and other pilots can be blamed for decaying terms and conditions. If I didn't go to the next round of interviews/assessments and decided to make a stand then it would just go to somebody else.

[Ollie23]

I think this is a simple one from a wannabes perspective - read HundredPercentPlease's post. Decide whether you have the appetite & resources for this level of risk. If so, go for it.

[Callum Riseley]

Do easyJet pilots regularly find the debt gets on top of them and are unable to meet repayments?
Are BBVA allowed to up the repayments in order to try and gain your asset?

I just want to know more about this loan. Having done the maths against the contract that OAA seem to be talking about there won't be any problem re-paying the loan, however my parents will be helping me raise security for the loan and so I need to be sure that the risk is minimal.

The OAA FAQ stated that this is not a 6 month temporary contract, although it didn't state that it was a permanent contract either. It did state that the pilot could expect about £40,000 a year minimum and standby pay on top of that and that there is a minimum winter hours guarantee. It also stated that the majority of the graduates from OAA that went off to easyJet are still working there and so it goes to show that they are not just seasonal contracts.

How much of this is true? Any easyJet first officers want to give some figures as to what they were earning in their first year and if there were any problems encountered making repayments?

[Bealzebub]

Are BBVA allowed to up the repayments in order to try and gain your asset?

I just want to know more about this loan. Having done the maths against the contract that OAA seem to be talking about there won't be any problem re-paying the loan, however my parents will be helping me raise security for the loan and so I need to be sure that the risk is minimal.

Somebody else will be able to give you a better answer on the rest of your question, but dealing with the extract above....

The lender isn't interested in "gaining your asset" if by this you mean the property that is used to secure the loan. They are interested in selling you a loan that you repay in accordance with the terms of their contract. That loan is offered at a tied variable rate (usually 2.5% above base.) This means that it will float in accordance with changes in the Bank of England base lending rate, (currently at an all time historic low of only 0.5%, but almost guaranteed to rise over the near and medium term future, and quite likely that rise will be significant.) The loan is usually a deferred product, which means that you are given a payment holiday of 18 months, (and possibly a further partial payment holiday of up to 24 months.) However make no mistake, that is not an interest holiday. So while you are spending 18 months making no capital payments towards the loan, and up a further 24 months only making partial payments, the (variable) interest rate is being applied daily. When the time comes to start the capital repayments, you will owe considerably more than the principal sum you borrowed, and that new total will continue to have a floating rate applied to the outstanding balance for the life of the loan. You won't be able to accurately predict how much this sum will be, because it will depend on the variations that have taken place to the interest rate in the intervening period. Your monthly repayments are only an illustration based on the very low interest rates prevailing today. It is a fairly simple task to arm yourself with a mortgage amortization calculator (from numerous online sources,) and frighten yourself with the repayment figures if interest rates rise from the 3% quoted, to 5% or 6% or 7% or more.

It is highly unlikely that the bank will regard you as an adequate risk for the principal loan, since you will probably not have adequate levels of security or equity, or the likely ability to repay the loan in the event of not securing airline employment at the conclusion. They will require a guarantor (you have indicated that would be your parents.) They will then ensure that your parents security (property/home) has sufficient equity (net worth) after any other mortgages such that their loan is secured, plus an additional margin of around 40%. They will also want details of your guarantors income to satisfy themselves that they will be able to make the likely repayments in the event of your default. The security (property/home)after payments of around £1500 in set up charges and fees, then underwrites the loan legally, if both you and your guarantors default on the subsequent repayments. In other words if neither you or your guarantors could afford to make the repayments, they could and almost certainly would apply for a court order to sell the property in order to recover not only their outstanding loan amounts, but whatever legal costs, recovery charges and interest they might also be granted.

So however you might view the risk, your guarantors (parents) would need to satisfy themselves (and the bank) that they could assume the likely repayment schedule in the event you cannot. Only if they can do this, could you (or they) even begin to regard the risk as "minimal"

[captainsuperstorm]

How much of this is true? Any easyJet first officers want to give some figures as to what they were earning in their first year and if there were any problems encountered making repayments?

these schools will tell you anything just to get your cash.
there is nothing wrong with repayment, if you can not, they take your house!!! don't think banks are on your side, they are here to make money. Repay or not repay, they will get all your money even if it take you 20 years to pay back. Have you watched the movie"payback"!

why they don't take the loan instead?, and you pay back the school or EJ instead?, why you have always to take the risk?.

they are here to make money from you.Most guys I know are now miserable, with a ton of debt to pay, living like gipsies...

is this what you want in your life, be a less than nothing just to seat your a$$ behind EFIS screens and play the airline pilot on a full automated aircraft?
I don't think airlines will continue to pay pilots, if pilots agree to join these schemes around the world.In the near future, most copilots will have to pay.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Callum,

I shall have a go at answering some of your questions - but bear in mind that I am an eJ captain, albeit one who does other stuff at work that includes helping other pilots.

Do easyJet pilots regularly find the debt gets on top of them and are unable to meet repayments?

Not easyJet pilots, because they are on a fair salary.

What we are talking about, and what you are thinking of becoming, is a self-employed contract pilot being placed by (no doubt) Parc Aviation.

We have 500 such contract pilots, some from ARL (Airline Recruitment Ltd, part of CTC) and some from Parc (ex-Oxford pilots). Some of these pilots have had to wait in holding pools with no income, and so have run into financial difficulty. A good size handful have had to declare bankruptcy, because the bank (HSBC) have given them no option. Often though, it is because they may have a property too, which may be worth less than the debt they have on it - remember that some of the HSBC loans were secured, and during the training there has been a fall in property prices. If your repayments are more than your income, then you are bankrupt.

Many contract pilots secretly continue their old jobs on their days off, or stack shelves. Not legal, not clever, but it happens.

Are BBVA allowed to up the repayments in order to try and gain your asset?

Once you default on a loan, it's gloves off. It depends on how the bank views the outcome.

If you owe a bank £10,000 then it's your problem.
If you owe a bank £100,000 then it's the bank's problem, and it will go about "fixing" it.

I just want to know more about this loan. Having done the maths against the contract that OAA seem to be talking about there won't be any problem re-paying the loan, however my parents will be helping me raise security for the loan and so I need to be sure that the risk is minimal.

I believe the loan is secured against a more expensive property.

I have to assume that you are getting the loan because nobody else can afford to pay it out of their back pocket. So you are betting the farm (your parents farm to be exact) and I would say that the odds are feasible, but not great.

Chopped at Oxford: low risk, as you can work at it. Couple of bad PTs though...

Chopped during base training: high risk. If you can't land it, guys are being chopped at this point right now. Good guys, too.

Chopped during line training: low risk. Only a very small number fail to make it - many get lots of extra sectors but the vast majority make it through.

Chopped because you damage an aircraft: low risk, but it has happened.

Fail to get a contract because of "external factors": medium risk. You just never know what's going to happen. Another 9/11? Think about it.

Hope for the best, but you must plan for the worst. If you can't afford to fail, then maybe you can't afford it altogether.

The OAA FAQ stated that this is not a 6 month temporary contract, although it didn't state that it was a permanent contract either. It did state that the pilot could expect about £40,000 a year minimum and standby pay on top of that and that there is a minimum winter hours guarantee.

You are a contractor, and so can be dumped at the drop of a hat. No rights, no nothing. And what if you go sick? Or have an op and lose your medical for 6 months?

Here's an illustration of how contract pilots are treated. The FO was given just a short contract, and on his last day he checked his roster and found out that he had another month's work. He called his manager, and yes, he had been given another month. So he asked if that was the last one because he wanted to plan a holiday, and he was told "yes". So he booked the holiday. At the end of the next month, checked and sure enough, another month. He phoned the manager again to say he couldn't do it. "If you don't work this month, you will never work for easyJet again in your life".

If you get lucky and you are used as a contractor for a full year, expect about £38k less your loan repayments and tax. Do expect to be based anywhere, and don't forget to see what you get paid during your line training (I am not sure what the deal is then), given that there may be a long delay in training you. If we are short of trainers, then it is better to train someone who needs only a few sectors rather than an MPL who needs loads.

Be wary though. Companies with armies of contractors will want to have slightly too many (at no extra cost because they are paid by the hour) to allow maximum seasonal flexibility.

It also stated that the majority of the graduates from OAA that went off to easyJet are still working there and so it goes to show that they are not just seasonal contracts.

You are a contractor. If the wind changes direction....


If only we were taking on 1500 hour TP pilots. As employees. Then I would advise an integrated or modular course, a job on an ancient TP for a while and then DE to easyJet on the Airbus. Cheaper, less risk, better pilot, more fun, and you can fail earlier and not have to sell the folks gaff. You never know, but in a couple of years we may have returned to that type of recruitment. In the mean time, the gamble is yours.

Good luck, and if you need to PM me about anything more sensitive at any time, please do.

[PAPI-74]

Thanks...but no thanks.

[OA570]

Good morning to all of you my friends and especially to the rest of the wannabees who are in the same state looking for the most efficient solution to get there.

I have already applied for the scheme and I got through the the first screening. I was extremely happy until i found this thread. My question is, if you dont need the help of BBVA and with one way or another you can pay the scheme, would it still be that bad as you guys mention? I mean since you dont have to pay the 1200 bp pcm that somebody calculated would you still be working under the conditions of "slavery"?

[HundredPercentPlease]

OA570,

No, I think slavery is a bit harsh. When finally on the hourly rate (and assuming you are fit to work and the hours are offered to you), it is OK.

You will face hurdles, water traps and other barriers on your 2 year path, but if you are one of the ones that cross the finish line you will be a self employed contract pilot, with all the risk that entails.

There are many threads here about eJ contract pilots. However, one great thing about being a contract pilot is that you can grab the first real job that is offered to you. Many current eJ contract pilots have done just that, with other airlines.

As an MPL though, your type rating disallows that option.

Many hurdles, much risk, a lot of money, no options, questionable reward.

[OA570]

Thank you very much for your reply.
And why do you say that the type rating disallows the contract option?

[Bealzebub]

Flybe seem to have pioneered this scheme in the UK, and there is some additional information Here that might be worth reading for additional background.

On the subject of BBVA, if you don't need a loan then don't bother with it. As with most loans:

1)There is no guarantee you will qualify for it.
2)It will cost money to set up. (Around £1500)
3)It requires significant levels of legally assigned security. (In this case equity worth at least 40% more than the loan sum proposed.
4)Interest rates are variable.
5)There must be a back up plan for repayments to continue irrespective of your employment plans as a result of the course.
6) In effect, it is a second mortgage on a property. The ultimate liability resting with the security owner.

If you regard any aspect of this as "slavery" then you really shouldn't be considering it. Few people with any sense would voluntarily go to so much trouble and effort to put themselves in a position that they regarded as "slavery." If it doesn't sound reasonable to you at onset, it is unlikely to get better as time goes on.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Originally Posted by OA570

And why do you say that the type rating disallows the contract option?

No - you will be a self-employed contract pilot, signed up with Parc Aviation. You will not be able to fly anywhere other than at easyJet for the first 1,500* hours, because your type rating is "tied" to easyJet. So it's not valid for any other operator.

So, our existing contract pilots can grab an offer of a permanent job with, say, BA after 500 hours, but you will not be able to.

Be double-aware! And just think how eJ may treat you, given that you are not governed by any employment laws or rights, and you are not allowed to go and fly elsewhere. Furthermore, because you will not be an employee, the union cannot help you either.

* have a look at the contract - I have heard that it's 2,000 hours with eJ/OAA/Parc, but I haven't had sight of the actual contract.

[OA570]

Thank you very much for those clarifications... I'll just call OAA to tell them that there is no assessment for me. This is getting more ridiculous post by post...

[HundredPercentPlease]

OA570,

Quite possibly a wise decision.

But don't despair - thoroughly investigate the various paths to getting a frozen ATPL. Then try and get a job with a turboprop outfit, where you are bonded for the type rating. With 1500+ hours of TP flying you will have learnt the basics of the trade and will be a viable option for the jet operators - assuming that by then they have seen sense and returned to recruiting 1500 hour TP pilots.

Can't promise it, but it is less of a risk and gives you more options. Something you will learn about later in the career...

[Superpilot]

What Bealzebub has been saying throughout this thread concerning the sort of pilots UK airlines are interested in is true. The validity of the reasons behind it, I’m not sure of. This idea of an airlines' that pre-selection (and we tell you where to do your training thank you very much!) is the best method of hiring a new pilot into an airline is only because our airlines have not seriously employed alternative methods and are deliberately remaining ignorant of how modular training has evolved. This practice is a remnant of the old days and is a classic example of the old boys network looking after each other. It’s no surprise that airline recruitment chiefs are often best buddies with those who own the integrated flight schools (remind me how much CTC makes from EZY and EZY pilots someone?). In the face of such a lucrative relationship, why bother to explore alternative routes? It would be crap BUSINESS sense.

The more just and fair airlines of the world actually have proper recruitment departments who treat all suitably qualified pilots the same by offering a fair assessment opportunity to them regardless of training background. Unlike UK airlines, effort goes into assessing pilots for the job and not the ‘role’ (subservient muppets willing to accept awful contracts, with no guarantees of income, and free reign for the airline to abuse you whilst not lifting a single finger to do anything for you – like base you where you’d like to be based!).

Pre-selection, I thank you tremendously. Whilst I was clearly too thick to be accepted into CTC 5 years ago, I am proud it has resulted in an individual who has gained the life experience to know what a good deal in life is. Despite still looking for that first job, at least I have 0 debt, a house, a couple of cars and a fall-back career. Flying isn’t everything - CTC/EZY rely on guys who think it is. The irony of it all is that pre-selection is designed to highlight seriously bright individuals but obviously not bright enough to know what a financially insane offer looks like!

[Bealzebub]

What Bealzebub has been saying throughout this thread concerning the sort of pilots UK airlines are interested in is true. The validity of the reasons behind it, I’m not sure of. This idea of an airlines' that pre-selection (and we tell you where to do your training thank you very much!) is the best method of hiring a new pilot into an airline is only because our airlines have not seriously employed alternative methods and are deliberately remaining ignorant of how modular training has evolved. This practice is a remnant of the old days and is a classic example of the old boys network looking after each other. It’s no surprise that airline recruitment chiefs are often best buddies with those who own the integrated flight schools (remind me how much CTC makes from EZY and EZY pilots someone?). In the face of such a lucrative relationship, why bother to explore alternative routes? It would be crap BUSINESS sense.

I don't think for one minute that these companies are necessarily ignorant of how modular training has evolved. The point is that they do not generally regard a 250 hour CPL/IR holder as being sufficiently experienced for this type of operation. However with a cadet scheme they can utilize a small number of pilots with this level of experience provided they are satisfied that the training course and selection utilized is in accordance with what they both expect and require. They can see the candidates entire training and progress record from scratch, even before that candidate is considered for type rating training. The assessments from one affiliated school are likely to be consistent, verifiable and in a format the airline utilizes themselves.

As I say, a licence and 250 hours simply isn't enough in the vast majority of cases, for a succesful transistion into this type of operation. In days gone by, 700 hours and a licence wasn't usually considered enough either. It is important not to confuse the basic requirements, with the requirements these companies expect for their limited cadet programmes.

It is not a case of "hiring a new pilot into an airline." It is a case of bringing a cadet forward into the next stage of their advanced progression within that airline. It is a distinction that needs to be made and understood.

The more just and fair airlines of the world actually have proper recruitment departments who treat all suitably qualified pilots the same by offering a fair assessment opportunity to them regardless of training background. Unlike UK airlines, effort goes into assessing pilots for the job and not the ‘role’ (subservient muppets willing to accept awful contracts, with no guarantees of income, and free reign for the airline to abuse you whilst not lifting a single finger to do anything for you – like base you where you’d like to be based!).

The significant phrase here being "suitably qualified pilots." Most airlines do this. Suitably qualified normally being 1500-2000 hours and 500 hours on turbine powered aircraft. There are often allowances made for pilots from a military background, or those with significant experience on type. However this is broadly speaking what "suitably qualified" amounts to. With those requirements fulfilled, there is in fact a fairly good chance of being selected for an interview no matter what your training background. This is the level of attainment, when the playing field starts to level again. However again the distinction needs to be made that you are talking about suitably qualified pilots and not cadet programmes at this level.

Even at this level, it is probably "ambitious" to suppose that success will bring with it a plethora of wonderful contracts, guarantees of income, all encompassing pastoral care, and a veritable buffet of base choices.

Pre-selection, I thank you tremendously. Whilst I was clearly too thick to be accepted into CTC 5 years ago, I am proud it has resulted in an individual who has gained the life experience to know what a good deal in life is. Despite still looking for that first job, at least I have 0 debt, a house, a couple of cars and a fall-back career. Flying isn’t everything - CTC/EZY rely on guys who think it is. The irony of it all is that pre-selection is designed to highlight seriously bright individuals but obviously not bright enough to know what a financially insane offer looks like!

Yes, you are absolutely right, "flying isn't everything." Albeit tongue-in-cheek, you obviously know that not being selected for something often means little other than on that particular day the components didn't come together. No system is going to be right for everybody, and you can certainly argue that some of them are not right for most people. Obviously it boils down to a variable cocktail of ability, luck, money and choice. There is often more than one way to reach your destination, sometimes it simply takes longer.