F/O first officer requirement (regulations)
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F/O first officer requirement (regulations)
Dear members
First of all, I am sorry if I posted in the wrong place but I hope to get the answers.
As you know there are too many graduated pilot ( less than 500 TT ) these days and most of them now get stuck. Of course I am one of them. We applied for most of the companies in the area ( I mean in the Middle east) but they said : Oh sir we are so sorry we didn't accept pilots without Jet hours. We offer to pay for the Type rating in the TRTO they contracted with but we need to sign before paying anything and the answer also NO. Again, We told them : Ok we told them could you accept us then you can detect the fees from our salaries, the answer is NO.
So, now I don't know what is going on. What is the problem. We finished the CPL/IR written exams & we got the ICAO English pro. level 4 certificate & our licenses approved from our Civil Aviation Authority & we hold the multi rating with more than 300 hours up to 500 hours. I know most of you will say why you didn't try to work as a Flight Instructor, Again I would say no one will accept us to work with his School because they already have enough Instructors.
How most these pilots who are flying in the jets starts their careers?
What about the company's insurance? because some of them said : we know that your documents are complete but we can't accept you without Jet hours on type because this insurance.
What is the real regulations for First Officer to work with the low cost airways?
Should we need someone to introduced us to work?!!!! (you know the third world and these things happens every moments)
Really guys I am trying to write more & more & more but I didn't find the answers
Finally, I hope to accept my apologize about my language ( unless I hold ICAO level 4
)
Thanks and Regards
First of all, I am sorry if I posted in the wrong place but I hope to get the answers.
As you know there are too many graduated pilot ( less than 500 TT ) these days and most of them now get stuck. Of course I am one of them. We applied for most of the companies in the area ( I mean in the Middle east) but they said : Oh sir we are so sorry we didn't accept pilots without Jet hours. We offer to pay for the Type rating in the TRTO they contracted with but we need to sign before paying anything and the answer also NO. Again, We told them : Ok we told them could you accept us then you can detect the fees from our salaries, the answer is NO.
So, now I don't know what is going on. What is the problem. We finished the CPL/IR written exams & we got the ICAO English pro. level 4 certificate & our licenses approved from our Civil Aviation Authority & we hold the multi rating with more than 300 hours up to 500 hours. I know most of you will say why you didn't try to work as a Flight Instructor, Again I would say no one will accept us to work with his School because they already have enough Instructors.
How most these pilots who are flying in the jets starts their careers?
What about the company's insurance? because some of them said : we know that your documents are complete but we can't accept you without Jet hours on type because this insurance.
What is the real regulations for First Officer to work with the low cost airways?
Should we need someone to introduced us to work?!!!! (you know the third world and these things happens every moments)
Really guys I am trying to write more & more & more but I didn't find the answers
Finally, I hope to accept my apologize about my language ( unless I hold ICAO level 4
)Thanks and Regards
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Unlike in Europe, we here in Canada and the US have to work our way up to jets - we don't just come out of Flight School going to Air Canada, Delta, United, WestJet, etc. We have to fly something smaller to being with, something like King Airs, MU-2's, up through to 1900D's and Dash 8s, then if lucky you get to start on an A320 after 10 years in the industry - and thats if you are hard working after 2 or 3 years on the ramp slugging freight around. However, I digress.
For quite a number of operators, insurance is the answer. Its not that its unsafe to have a "200 hour wonder pilot" in the right seat of a 320 or 737 - it can be done safely, and has been proven time and time again for a number of years - but should there be an incident it will be the experience that counts, and from an insurance standpoint 200 to even 1500 hours is a severe liability for jets. At the end of the day all the simulator training in the world does not prepare you for the first time the engine stops, 1 hour from the closest suitable landing point, at night in a dark cockpit - experience does that so that the next time it happens you know what emotions will come into play (and the scenario I am speaking of is from experience - same route, same a/c, same crew, 6 months apart. Turned out to be a faulty fuel filter with an unassociated failure of an ECU.)
At the end of the day there is no regulatory difference between a low cost operator flying an A320 and a major, international airline (Emirates, BA, Singapore) flying an A320. The regulations (as they should have taught you in school) are based on the aircraft type, not the operators business plan.
My suggestion to all low time pilots is to go out and work the real world for a couple of years. This means working the bush in Africa, the Pacific Islands, northern Canada/Alaska, etc. Work your way up - trust me, your career will end up being long and boring if all you ever fly is long, international routes, ILS to ILS and hoping you fly enough to meet the minimum currency requirements.
For quite a number of operators, insurance is the answer. Its not that its unsafe to have a "200 hour wonder pilot" in the right seat of a 320 or 737 - it can be done safely, and has been proven time and time again for a number of years - but should there be an incident it will be the experience that counts, and from an insurance standpoint 200 to even 1500 hours is a severe liability for jets. At the end of the day all the simulator training in the world does not prepare you for the first time the engine stops, 1 hour from the closest suitable landing point, at night in a dark cockpit - experience does that so that the next time it happens you know what emotions will come into play (and the scenario I am speaking of is from experience - same route, same a/c, same crew, 6 months apart. Turned out to be a faulty fuel filter with an unassociated failure of an ECU.)
At the end of the day there is no regulatory difference between a low cost operator flying an A320 and a major, international airline (Emirates, BA, Singapore) flying an A320. The regulations (as they should have taught you in school) are based on the aircraft type, not the operators business plan.
My suggestion to all low time pilots is to go out and work the real world for a couple of years. This means working the bush in Africa, the Pacific Islands, northern Canada/Alaska, etc. Work your way up - trust me, your career will end up being long and boring if all you ever fly is long, international routes, ILS to ILS and hoping you fly enough to meet the minimum currency requirements.
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dear +TSRA
thanks for your advaising but do you know that I send more than 300 email all over the world. I am asking to fly a JET but I am asking just to fly and get paid that is. So, what do you think about that airlines which just trained the low pilot hours for 3 months then push them to set in the right seat on Jet under instrustor pilot supervesion e.g: NAS AIR or Air Asia
My friend in a First officer working in our low cost airways and he is from Italy and I ask him what should I do to get that? He said nothing, you have the right things to allow you to fly a jet after getting the right TR in the right place e.g CAE
Edited for Txt spek
HWB
thanks for your advaising but do you know that I send more than 300 email all over the world. I am asking to fly a JET but I am asking just to fly and get paid that is. So, what do you think about that airlines which just trained the low pilot hours for 3 months then push them to set in the right seat on Jet under instrustor pilot supervesion e.g: NAS AIR or Air Asia
My friend in a First officer working in our low cost airways and he is from Italy and I ask him what should I do to get that? He said nothing, you have the right things to allow you to fly a jet after getting the right TR in the right place e.g CAE
Edited for Txt spek
HWB
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AL-MEHDAR
The way it works in your part of the world, that is Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar and UAE is normally through cadet programmes. I have never in the last 10 years personally heard of any Middle East airline opening the doors to self-trained low hours pilots without a type rating or turbine time. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but it must be quite rare.
If it’s any consolation, it’s actually like this all over the world right now. In Europe, If you don’t know anyone on the inside and are self-trained (i.e. not part of some kind of cadet programme), it is very difficult to get a job and you will be waiting for many years.
The truth is, there are too many inexperienced pilots and not enough jobs to go around for them. General Aviation (and flying smaller category planes) in the Middle East just does not exist for that natural career progression to take place. It’s hard work finding work as a pilot.
The way it works in your part of the world, that is Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar and UAE is normally through cadet programmes. I have never in the last 10 years personally heard of any Middle East airline opening the doors to self-trained low hours pilots without a type rating or turbine time. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but it must be quite rare.
If it’s any consolation, it’s actually like this all over the world right now. In Europe, If you don’t know anyone on the inside and are self-trained (i.e. not part of some kind of cadet programme), it is very difficult to get a job and you will be waiting for many years.
The truth is, there are too many inexperienced pilots and not enough jobs to go around for them. General Aviation (and flying smaller category planes) in the Middle East just does not exist for that natural career progression to take place. It’s hard work finding work as a pilot.
I have never in the last 10 years personally heard of any Middle East airline opening the doors to self-trained low hours pilots without a type rating or turbine time.
I know of a self-funded 200 hour FTE graduate who joined Etihad earlier this year with Etihad paying for the type-rating.
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Haha,
The fact of the matter is there was no open and honest assessment offered to multiple 200 hour candidates to compete for the same job. He got it on the basis of something else right? Out of interest, what was his nationality and was daddy on the board of directors? Facetious I am, I know, but there's often a reason behind rarity
Good on him, I'm jealous.
The fact of the matter is there was no open and honest assessment offered to multiple 200 hour candidates to compete for the same job. He got it on the basis of something else right? Out of interest, what was his nationality and was daddy on the board of directors? Facetious I am, I know, but there's often a reason behind rarity
Good on him, I'm jealous.
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AL-MEHDAR,
I still have the book from when I first put out resumes and 300 - 400 is about average if you are seriously looking for a job, so good job. Quite a number of guys only put out 20 thinking that will be it and get fed up. Yeah 300 is alot, but then with thousands of pilots out of work world wide it should be expected.
As for the pilots under supervision, I think its the safe buffer for putting a 300 hour pilot into a medium to heavy jet, but its still not the right type of experience in my mind or opinion - the instructor will still tell you when you are wrong because its a large airline and they have schedules/passenger expectations to meet - you never really get to make the decision and live with the consequences - good or bad. Thats part of what makes a good Pilot-in-Command and at the end of the day, I just don't see how being told that a decision is the wrong one will help you 15-20 years down the road when youre in the muck, with the lights out, something wrong and you have to make a call.
Also, every pilot worldwide with a CPL M/IF and 300 hours has the ability to fly jets, but I guess I just do not understand this big rush to get there. Pistons and Turboprops are just as good, and you'll do a lot more handflying, get just as many, if not more, hours and more importantly (in my book) you get more sectors, meaning more take-offs and landings, to improve on your skills. Additionally, the initial pay will be no different between a Saab 340A and an A320 (at least here in North America it isn't) so youre not loosing out much.
Last but not least, being a jet pilot does not proove you've become a successful airline pilot - it just means you know how to fly a metal tube with a couple furnaces attached to the wings.
Landing safely each and everytime, thinking about passenger comfort, flying the numbers and studying your SOPs does that - and that can be in anything from Cessnas to DeHavillands to Boeings.
I still have the book from when I first put out resumes and 300 - 400 is about average if you are seriously looking for a job, so good job. Quite a number of guys only put out 20 thinking that will be it and get fed up. Yeah 300 is alot, but then with thousands of pilots out of work world wide it should be expected.
As for the pilots under supervision, I think its the safe buffer for putting a 300 hour pilot into a medium to heavy jet, but its still not the right type of experience in my mind or opinion - the instructor will still tell you when you are wrong because its a large airline and they have schedules/passenger expectations to meet - you never really get to make the decision and live with the consequences - good or bad. Thats part of what makes a good Pilot-in-Command and at the end of the day, I just don't see how being told that a decision is the wrong one will help you 15-20 years down the road when youre in the muck, with the lights out, something wrong and you have to make a call.
Also, every pilot worldwide with a CPL M/IF and 300 hours has the ability to fly jets, but I guess I just do not understand this big rush to get there. Pistons and Turboprops are just as good, and you'll do a lot more handflying, get just as many, if not more, hours and more importantly (in my book) you get more sectors, meaning more take-offs and landings, to improve on your skills.
Additionally, the initial pay will be no different between a Saab 340A and an A320 (at least here in North America it isn't) so youre not loosing out much.Last but not least, being a jet pilot does not proove you've become a successful airline pilot - it just means you know how to fly a metal tube with a couple furnaces attached to the wings.
Landing safely each and everytime, thinking about passenger comfort, flying the numbers and studying your SOPs does that - and that can be in anything from Cessnas to DeHavillands to Boeings.
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@+TSRA
Sir, I completely agree with what you say about getting some non jet/bush experience before trying passenger jets. In fact I'd actually prefer a job like that when compared to a large jet right now. But after countless attempts at contacting various set-ups all across Africa and the Far East, I have barely received any acknowledgments, let alone acceptances.
Am I missing something here? Is my approach wrong? I'm a 270 hr FAA CPL (ME+IR), and am willing to fly anything/anywhere as long as I can build hrs and make some money as well (have a huge loan to pay off, else wouldn't be too concerned about flying without real pay either!). Any suggestions? Particular organizations or regions I should concentrate on?
Really want to fly!
Sir, I completely agree with what you say about getting some non jet/bush experience before trying passenger jets. In fact I'd actually prefer a job like that when compared to a large jet right now. But after countless attempts at contacting various set-ups all across Africa and the Far East, I have barely received any acknowledgments, let alone acceptances.
Am I missing something here? Is my approach wrong? I'm a 270 hr FAA CPL (ME+IR), and am willing to fly anything/anywhere as long as I can build hrs and make some money as well (have a huge loan to pay off, else wouldn't be too concerned about flying without real pay either!). Any suggestions? Particular organizations or regions I should concentrate on?
Really want to fly!
