How to build up hours as PIC?
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How to build up hours as PIC?
I had that topic already opened in another forum, however it seems to me that it might be well-located in here.
Just imagine, due to some unfortunate coincidences, you are employed as FO with PIC in your licence on medium jet (like A320, B737), already with around 200 - 300 hours as PIC, but no chance to upgrade on one side, and companies urgently looking for PIC's, but with minimum 500 hours on the other side. Aptitude, attitude and knowledge are such that they very easily compare to others with more hours logged in command. Too old to start all over as Co with a new company (to be honest, seniority lists can be a really bad pain in the a..ce in such a situation).
Does anybody have any suggestion or idea on how to build up your PIC-experience to match the requirements, without paying 30.000,-+ USD with a one-year commitment to fly as a modern slave for nothing in Asia, like with Eagle Jet Int.?
I would even consider a (timely acceptable) self-sponsored program, paying a new type-rating and/or flying supervision as a kind of probationary to proof my abilities and of course to build up my hours - does anybody know a company which might be open for such ideas?
Just imagine, due to some unfortunate coincidences, you are employed as FO with PIC in your licence on medium jet (like A320, B737), already with around 200 - 300 hours as PIC, but no chance to upgrade on one side, and companies urgently looking for PIC's, but with minimum 500 hours on the other side. Aptitude, attitude and knowledge are such that they very easily compare to others with more hours logged in command. Too old to start all over as Co with a new company (to be honest, seniority lists can be a really bad pain in the a..ce in such a situation).
Does anybody have any suggestion or idea on how to build up your PIC-experience to match the requirements, without paying 30.000,-+ USD with a one-year commitment to fly as a modern slave for nothing in Asia, like with Eagle Jet Int.?
I would even consider a (timely acceptable) self-sponsored program, paying a new type-rating and/or flying supervision as a kind of probationary to proof my abilities and of course to build up my hours - does anybody know a company which might be open for such ideas?
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Yes they are looking for PIC but also looking for someone else to have put you through a command course and more importantly sign you off as fit for the LHS.
If you see jobs requiring 500 hours PIC it will be PIC in the LHS ignoring any hours that have been aquired in the RHS.
If you see jobs requiring 500 hours PIC it will be PIC in the LHS ignoring any hours that have been aquired in the RHS.
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hollingworthp, which FI do you mean? Just for SEP, and that, I guess, doesn't cover A320 or B737. ;-)
mad_jock, how can you get RHS PIC hours, if not instructor??? I am talking about LHS hours. What do you mean with "sign you off as fit"? According to JAR-FCL you need to get introduction and pass a sim-check LHS. Everything else must be taken according to JAR-OPS 1, 1.955, and that doesn't distinguish between looged experience, when starting new in a company. 1000's in Command, nought in command, doesn't matter, all have to fly their supervision part ending in a line check.
>JAR–OPS 1.955
>Nomination as commander
>(a) An operator shall ensure that for upgrade to commander from co-pilot and for those joining as commanders: ...
mad_jock, how can you get RHS PIC hours, if not instructor??? I am talking about LHS hours. What do you mean with "sign you off as fit"? According to JAR-FCL you need to get introduction and pass a sim-check LHS. Everything else must be taken according to JAR-OPS 1, 1.955, and that doesn't distinguish between looged experience, when starting new in a company. 1000's in Command, nought in command, doesn't matter, all have to fly their supervision part ending in a line check.
>JAR–OPS 1.955
>Nomination as commander
>(a) An operator shall ensure that for upgrade to commander from co-pilot and for those joining as commanders: ...
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Because of the joys of PICUS FO's are logging it. Most FO's in the UK record PF time as PICUS.
The paper work for your area competence check has the details in it and the wording. Wouldn't suprise me though if Germany does it different.
So with that additional information that you already have 300 hours PIC in the LHS and all the jobs require 500 you have a problem. Most of the insurance company's require it for a DEC in my experence.
The paper work for your area competence check has the details in it and the wording. Wouldn't suprise me though if Germany does it different.
So with that additional information that you already have 300 hours PIC in the LHS and all the jobs require 500 you have a problem. Most of the insurance company's require it for a DEC in my experence.
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Yepp, the wording leaves it a little unclear what PICuS actually means.
And you got the point. So my hope focuses on the 500h to hit those as PICuS (LHS-flying with TRI in RHS), to bypass the insurance hinderance. I anyway have to fly my 80h or so SV. And for the rest I even would be willing to work on a training contract to cover the additional expenses for the TRI. I guess that would be also a quite good probationary. And a fair deal.
I know that many will jump on me about that, "eroding the sponsoring position of pilots". But the established seniority systems don't leave me any other choice anymore.
And you got the point. So my hope focuses on the 500h to hit those as PICuS (LHS-flying with TRI in RHS), to bypass the insurance hinderance. I anyway have to fly my 80h or so SV. And for the rest I even would be willing to work on a training contract to cover the additional expenses for the TRI. I guess that would be also a quite good probationary. And a fair deal.
I know that many will jump on me about that, "eroding the sponsoring position of pilots". But the established seniority systems don't leave me any other choice anymore.
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Those hours with a TRI in the RHS don't count I am afraid towards PIC time.
When they put adverts out for 500 hour PIC DEC's they mean hours logged post Command course with a normal run of the mill line FO sitting beside you.
That is unless of course the TRI is rostered as a FO with no training requirments and doesn't log PIC time, you sign the tech log etc etc as per flying with a normal line FO.
When they put adverts out for 500 hour PIC DEC's they mean hours logged post Command course with a normal run of the mill line FO sitting beside you.
That is unless of course the TRI is rostered as a FO with no training requirments and doesn't log PIC time, you sign the tech log etc etc as per flying with a normal line FO.
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OK, how much does the extra insurance cost?
The program according to JAR-OPS is the same for high-experienced and low-experienced. But nobody takes a low because of insurance reasons. Even though the low guy might be much better and safer than quite some of the so-called experienced guys (as I had to find out in some of my screening sessions, and that's not my opinion but the saying of the evaluators).
I won't get hours logged because I don't have enough logged. I don't have enough hours logged, because nobody gives me the chance to log hours, so I won't get hours logged.
Any idea how to get out of this catch-22?
It really starts to suck!
The program according to JAR-OPS is the same for high-experienced and low-experienced. But nobody takes a low because of insurance reasons. Even though the low guy might be much better and safer than quite some of the so-called experienced guys (as I had to find out in some of my screening sessions, and that's not my opinion but the saying of the evaluators).
I won't get hours logged because I don't have enough logged. I don't have enough hours logged, because nobody gives me the chance to log hours, so I won't get hours logged.
Any idea how to get out of this catch-22?
It really starts to suck!
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Does anybody has knowledge about companies with Fast-Track-Command, Accellerated-Command, or called what-so-ever, options?
Eagle Jet (if I really might have to consider that) doesn't seem to have capacity at the moment.
Eagle Jet (if I really might have to consider that) doesn't seem to have capacity at the moment.
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I wonder if you are going to end up being the first one to pay for jet command time with a company similar to eagle jet. If you are seriously considering that if it becomes an option you are a moron.
You are an FO with this company, how have you got the PIC hours? Just wait your turn like everyone else if you are an FO, the reason they are not upgrading you is probably because you don't have the experience as an FO, how many hours do you have and how many on type? You say you have the right attitude for command but even considering paying to be a captain shows that your really lacking in many required qualities.
You are an FO with this company, how have you got the PIC hours? Just wait your turn like everyone else if you are an FO, the reason they are not upgrading you is probably because you don't have the experience as an FO, how many hours do you have and how many on type? You say you have the right attitude for command but even considering paying to be a captain shows that your really lacking in many required qualities.
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Hey Sloppy
Sometimes reasons are beyond the standard and the situation you are discribing might be true for many others, but for sure not for everybody.
Or to put it differently. I had been in command before joining my company. I meanwhile have been through some assessments, and all had been very satisfied with my performance, my knowledge and my CRM. A psychologist told me after aptitude and psychological testing he doesn't understand why my company doesn't promote me to captain.
So take a guess, what the reasons might be. Ever heard of mobbing? Not? Your lucky. And guess what my prospect will be in that company! None? Wow, I guess your right.
My main problem remains the 500h PIC on type. Not the nearly 9000h on jet or the 5000h 737. So nothing about "unexperienced FO".
An important competence for being in command is decision-making. And that will be my decision, if there won't be a different possibility!
But maybe you were just lacking some important pieces of information to come up with your not-so-right opinion.
Please be so kind to give me a hint on what to do, not on what not to do!
Sometimes reasons are beyond the standard and the situation you are discribing might be true for many others, but for sure not for everybody.
Or to put it differently. I had been in command before joining my company. I meanwhile have been through some assessments, and all had been very satisfied with my performance, my knowledge and my CRM. A psychologist told me after aptitude and psychological testing he doesn't understand why my company doesn't promote me to captain.
So take a guess, what the reasons might be. Ever heard of mobbing? Not? Your lucky. And guess what my prospect will be in that company! None? Wow, I guess your right.
My main problem remains the 500h PIC on type. Not the nearly 9000h on jet or the 5000h 737. So nothing about "unexperienced FO".
An important competence for being in command is decision-making. And that will be my decision, if there won't be a different possibility!
But maybe you were just lacking some important pieces of information to come up with your not-so-right opinion.
Please be so kind to give me a hint on what to do, not on what not to do!
