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Ryanair TR Funding

Old 3rd Nov 2009, 16:02
  #301 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A laser guided drone
Posts: 608
big numbers unfortunately your very accurate.easy money from mummy and daddy, impatience, naivety all combining to destroy the industry.

what i dont understand is where all these great jobs will be for the little darlings after they have destroyed the industry
blackred1443 is offline  
Old 3rd Nov 2009, 21:01
  #302 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a
Remember the craze for 'investing' in ostriches in the 90's? When I lived in Australia I flew a charter to an ostrich farm with a load of Hong Kong chinese sucker....sorry, customers. I tagged on to the guided tour during which the farmer explained that they could buy a bird for A$20,000 which laid eggs that you sold on for A$2000 apiece. You could also sell a bird for feathers, meat, skin and oil. When I asked the farmer if there was A$20,000 worth of meat, oil skin and feathers in a bird he just smiled and whispered "Nah mate. It's like Amway, sooner or later someone's gunna have to clean the dunny".

Neither Airbus nor Boeing will drop their prices and RYR have their older aircraft, which they can't sell, coming up for expensive maintenance. Guess who's going to be holding the metaphorical toilet brush?
Old 3rd Nov 2009, 23:23
  #303 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
Flinstone? Are you for real?

Imagine buying a 'job lot' fleet of 737NG's on an agreed, low price, over XYZ years....

I am no RYR employee or want to be. But, before you make opinions about their purchases of aircraft; do some research.

RYR are flying a very new, very large fleet. And subsequently 'could' be in the market to sell 3/4/5/6 year old frames to others, with a profit, years to come; And renew their fleet with minimal cost comparable to competitors....
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 23:36
  #304 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a
Getting a bit aggressive aren't we?

Neither Boeing nor Airbus will drop their prices (I found that out from my research) and the market for RYR selling on isn't there. If that revenue stream dries up ................... Your research will also have shown you that new aircraft don't stay that way for ever. They need expensive maintenance as the hours build up.

We'll see.
Old 3rd Nov 2009, 23:57
  #305 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FL330
Posts: 235
No foul intent words meant..

My point is that wise buyers, where possible purchase airframes during a dip in price... hence RYRs' post 911 purchase of a long term contract with boeing, for new frames.... at a lot lower price than the market norm.. over an otherwise nearly done deal with Airbus(done over price).. who couldn't meet the price of Boeing... it's well documented.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 08:42
  #306 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
I am with Smith on this, scab and parasite are very apt. Sorry for the lack of input of late, though I have wanted to contribute, work has been consuming unfortunately.

One9iner, the point is aircraft much older than 5 years wont work for Ryanair in terms of depreciation, profit made from resale and operating cost. It is another way in which they reduce their cost base.
TheBeak is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2009, 09:21
  #307 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 816
Sorry for the lack of input of late
Don't worry about it - we haven't exactly been on the edge of our seats waiting for another proclamation of wisdom from you. In fact I haven't bothered reading this garbage at all for a few weeks.

It's interesting that you think abusive language is 'very apt' when it's someone on your side of the fence using it, but as soon as someone with a different opinion gets a bit fiesty, you're the first to call foul. No surprises there, I suppose.
Torque Tonight is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2009, 11:24
  #308 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
TT, thanks for speaking on behalf of everyone. So you think it's garbage and thus haven't read it yet you go on to say it's interesting?

Scab and Parasite aren't abusive, if you look up their meaning they are pretty appropriate.
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Old 5th Nov 2009, 14:44
  #309 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Coventry
Posts: 193
Well put 'TT' and VERY correct DB. I think the same, if your opinion does not suit a minority, then expect a barrage of abuse so why bother?

Yorky Towers is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2009, 19:29
  #310 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Yorks
Posts: 53

Can't quite work out if my latest ban has been lifted? I apologise if I've spoken against your good judgement, and apologise if you consider me a stone thrower! I have now retracted all my inner-thoughts that do not agree with yours..Oh Sir. Please forgive me as I know no better. You are right in everything you preach. You are God.

Right....All that S**T out the way Andy, can I post again?

PS: Forget the High-Horse, I do have a sense of humour....hopefully, so do you?
piky is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2009, 16:14
  #311 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cloud Cookoo Land
Posts: 1,271
What a fanstastic thread. Another example of a posting with that air of contentiousness that turns into a slanging match (see integrated v modular, which TR to purchase?, how many line hours will I buy?, or indeed anything remotely relating to Ryanair!) We can all show how driven we are by our own subjectiveness - to hell with the fact that some poor sod was only asking for an informative answer to a reasonable question. Highjack the thread and tell him that he has either made the greatest decision humanly possible or alternatively let him know that he is a complete and utter bollox! Giving two sides to the arguement ain't permitted (I know, I've been there, completely guilty!)

Talking about being places, well I've been here for 1.5 years now. As you all know it isn't without its issues, however I enjoy it. As do many others. The novelty of what I do hasn't worn away. I am continually learning, continually progressing, earning good money and living my life in the way which I like to live it. I have a well defined career path which has a proven track record. I have watched others achieve a lot in very little time.

Anyway, enough of the positives; its nauseating for the 'haters.' Plus I don't want to be regarded as having an 'agenda.' I will leave all that to the likes of 'Leo Camel Hair' and his band of rose tinted followers! As I freely admitt, this place ain't without its issues. You must approach it with an open mind. Romanticists, idealists and the downright stubborn have all been badly scathed. And by that statement I don't mean those who possess a backbone or a large set of 'cojones' need not apply. Just be aware that you are a mere part of a very single minded behemoth. That's often the very sad and realistic reality.

Some posters on here (The Beak, smith etc) believe we are the root of all evil. 'Parasites & Scabs' being some of the colourful adjectives on offer. And yes, neither by definition are offensive, however the context which you use them are. Maybe someone will apply the word to you someday, heaven forbid!
Yet contentious issues lend to heated debate. I have been of the opinion that Integrated FTOs put pressure on the 'wanabee' to stump up well above the odds for a CPL/IR. Just to get their foot in someones door. When I started out in 2005 I had the chance to go to Oxford. I turned them down, went modular (took twice the amount of time), did a FIC and joined Ryanair. Putting the FIC and some additional pleasure flying aside, I did this all for less than what the APP at OAA, OAT (or whatever they are known as today) would have run me! This doesn't absolve me from the fact that I became part of the SSTR bandwagon or indeed agreed to a contract that doesn't hold much worth to the paper on which it is written - but there you go. My choice, my bed - I'll lie in it! Without it I wouldn't have what I have now. God knows what I'd be doing (it wouldn't be commercial flying anyway) or what I would be supporting my family on?

Flying is a perishable skill, as are the prerequisite ratings and licenses. For 8 months after I had qualified I was totally wound up in a potential job flying the same aircraft that I fly now, out of an airport 25 minutes from my front door, for the same money that I am on now (albeit with a better contract) with an SSTR for nearly half the price than what I paid FR! I had been interviewed and assessed and placed in a dreaded hold pool. And this is the problem (Beware Beak - I believe you are floating in some pool). As time went on I was fed story after story regarding my recruitment. Yet I was assured that I was part of the future plans. I turned down a job flying a B200 and started my FIC, convinced a TR course was looming. January 2008 came - Bamm!!! Change to company structure, personnel and direction. I attended a prearranged re-interview. "Who are you?, what hold pool?, cadet SSTR - no way!, I need current 737 rated crews like yesterday - thank you, but kindly Foxtrot Oscar Sonny Jim!" And there you go. Swam myself right into obscurity. And thats what generally happens in these pools! The company can feed you all the sh1te that they want to! It costs them nothing to have you hanging on! After all the cost is all on you with your perishable skills, licences and ratings dieing by the day.

So I bit the bullet and joined the hoards. Glad I did because there was **** all else and there will be **** all else for quite some time. Sure it wasn't the course that I intended to take when I set out upon this journey. I would be a bloody liar if I said it was! And if you had shown me a better one, I would have been all over it! Yet I'm getting there and I'm getting a kick out of it. I had a fantastic day today, flying to Ciampino with a great skipper and a friendly crew. I had a great laugh, flew a good CDA Loc approach to RW15, made a nice Flap 40 landing, monitored the return leg and went home. Unfortunately I did have to get up at 0345, park my car in a space that I paid for, filled my own water botel up in the crewroom, warmed my own lunch up in the oven and supplied my own coffee (actually I liberated some of the Captain's ). But heh, ain't life a bitch! If I had stuck to my guns and displayed any sort of moral value and self-worth I could still have been lying in my bed dreaming about flying instead of actually doing it!
Callsign Kilo is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2009, 18:32
  #312 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A laser guided drone
Posts: 608
callsign kilo

lovely post about landing in rome

one question though, what do you think your actions have done to the career you seem to love so much?

this is the root of the issue people have with sstr or pay to degrads terms bottom line. you are contributing to destroying this career

let me run through the list

paying for your carpark
paying for your type rating
no employment rights as your not permenant
no crew food
no holiday pay
no hot drinks
paying for your airport id
pay for your uniform
pay for your lpc/opc
no duty time for lpc/opc
no sick pay
lpc/opc on your day off
no pension
no loss of licence insurance
not allowed union membership
no basic salary
no guarantee of earnings

where do i sign?!
wheres daddys cheque book?

lets not forget the old but 'i'm well paid' chestnut

your not

ryr sstr is destroying this career

Last edited by blackred1443; 7th Nov 2009 at 18:43.
blackred1443 is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2009, 20:14
  #313 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cloud Cookoo Land
Posts: 1,271

I am not having what I posted descend into a bitch-slapping contest. I have been there before. I don't have the energy. And don't construe that as a big 'F' You, what you say isn't all wrong - you have a point, of course. I'm not that naive.

I don't know how long you have been in aviation, though I am judging several years. You probably either got there off your own back (the old self-improver route), via the armed forces or if you were really lucky, sponsorship. You didn't arrive here during the era of the lo-co. This in my opinon changed everything. The SSTR, an iflux of 200hr CPLs expecting the next step up from a light twin to being either an Airbus or a Boeing. The old self improver route was becoming and in my opinion has become obsolete. A real pitty I will add.
The stepping stone from PPL to CPL to FI to Air Taxi to Turboprop to Jet is gone. Airlines aren't interested because they know what they can get. And they have had it for years now. It leaves people with little choice. I would have been more than happy to take the old tried and tested route if it was as justifiable as it once was. I was on an FIC (best investment I ever made in aviation so far in terms of learning and experience) however if I had continued this with the club where I trained, I would now be jobless. I was offered a Kingair job, however the bond was an utter joke, the money was crap, the terms were awful (I know, you will laugh - I fly for Ryanair and all that) and the hours I would aquire each year were a third of what I fly now. I agree, you must start somewhere but progression would have been difficult. Self-improvement is dead. The airlines aren't interested. And I genuinely mean it, it's an utter shame. I'm not some jet snob at the end of the day. I feel I have missed out on a lot.

I started training in 2005. I have been flying in light aircraft since 1989. I have been in touch with the GA world, but through that have watched the commercial world go through some real changes. The SSTR was hardly in its infancy when I decided to go for my CPL. As I admit, I'm now one of its followers and I also said that if you had shown me a better path I'd have been all over it. So what do you want me to say to you? I should have sat idly by, spurned my investment, lost my currency and ratings and placed all my dreams and ambitions on pot luck? While every other sod invested in SSTRs?. I'm not saying thats right. It's crap to be frank. But it's fact!

Two more things - No bank of Mum and Dad for me and being well paid is relative to what you have been paid before. It supports me and supports my family. Thats more than enough.
Callsign Kilo is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2009, 20:41
  #314 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 19,841
Thats very fair. Things have changed so much in such a short space of time. Plenty of current pilots are pretty ignorant of it and assume things are still much the same as when they started climbing the ladder. Its radically different.

Wee Weasley Welshman is online now  
Old 7th Nov 2009, 21:33
  #315 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 1,219

But you won't convince people who started out in this industry more than 3 years ago of this fact because they have no contact with the world of recruitment except indirectly through their own Ts&Cs. Hence they hate Ryanair and all those who join the Company.
Mikehotel152 is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2009, 07:27
  #316 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A laser guided drone
Posts: 608
firstly callsign kilo my apologise. i wrote that post after a series of earlies and was knackered, not that its an excuse.i didnt mean to sound so bitter towards you

to provide a little background, i got a really lucky break when it came to my training otherwise i would have had to save for a long time as the bank of mum and dad wasnt an option

secondly i got my licence about 8 years ago, flying for airlines for the last 6 years ish.i have alot to learn obviously, but i reckon i now know a little about how the whole process works

in the last 2 to 3 years the degradation of terms in our career quite frankly terrifies me.its down to pay to fly/trss in my put it in context i have poorer terms now than 3 years ago.fact.i honestly think if i could afford to go back to uni to create another career for myself then i probaly would.financially this isnt an option.

their is nothing that i want to see more than you and all your ryr collegues in a position with terms that your efforts in getting to where you are now deserve. the reason being if your have proper terms then there is a better chance i are a highly trained professional who deserves to be treated as such (and you did it off your own back!)

i just dread to think where this career is headed. i wish all these ryr cadets could see what is happening..they claim its for a better job in the future.they are infact ensuring these jobs wont exist.i find it very frustrating.hope i'm wrong. i apologise once more for the way the previous post came across
blackred1443 is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2009, 12:52
  #317 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 172
While I keep reading about Ryanair lowering T's & C's, but by no means do intend to defend their recruiting policies, as I also think it's unfair really, I would like to point out this: I have been on the waiting list for a TP (Do 328-100) with a regional in central western Europe. The deal is new FO's would have to pay 21k euros for the TR but will receive a salary of no more than 1500 euros after taxes per month. I learned their FO's fly about 400h (!) a year. The company is in turmoil and rumored to go bust. Would I go for it if I get the call? Probably not. It's nuts. Cadets, recently graduated from Air Berlin's own flight school (Germany's second largest carrier), had been promised, before they signed the check for a totally overpriced training, jobs on either one of their 320's or 737's with a salary commensurate to that type of aircraft, but instead have been put on Dash-8's, earning them 1,300 euros after taxes per month. Admittedly, the company was generous enough to pay for the TR...

I hate it as much as everyone else here, but let's face it guys, the glory days in this job are pretty much over if you don't fly for one of the classics. The Ryanair deal is indeed throat-cutting, but from what I see in the industry, they do pay rather well and you know what you sign up for. Plus, they are strong and surely will stick around for some time to come. One poster here said earlier, they are the future, love it or hate. I am afraid he's right.

I embarked on this career for the love of flying but also with the intention of making money at some point - preferably good money. While having been able to secure pilot employment since I finished my training last year and see my hours rack up since I certainly have not achieved the earning part. Former training buddies, however, who joined Ryanair straight after training (I actually laughed them off that time for forking out 40K), have and ... they are happy, i.e. residing in southern Europe, own apartment, car, paying back their loans... Life is a bitch sometimes.
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