Job Security - Which airlines?
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Job Security - Which airlines?
After reading through many threads about a career as an airline pilot it seems I may have been some what naive in my perception of the profession. (a serious lack of jobs, sometimes low salary, disruptive lifestyle, bases often far from preffered choice plus many more)....
......Nevertheless, a career as a pilot is my dream and will do what ever it takes to get there. It seems a lot of people opt for the ab-initio route rather than joining the military. Why? Only reasons I can think of, is that they disagree with a the a lot decisions made by the MOD and may think certain things are morally wrong. Or they realise that the RAF/NAVY is damned hard work lol, in which case there passion for a career as a pilot is questionable.
Am i wrong in saying that the RAF/NAVY is the most secure place to be a pilot? And my question is, which airlines are the most reliable in terms of job security? Are there airlines out there, where when you begin employment with them, your 95% near enough guarenteed a job for life with good salary etc?
Also, how long ago was it, when a career as an airline pilot was secure? When was there a demand for pilots? Consistently high salary? Will this ever happen again....?
......Nevertheless, a career as a pilot is my dream and will do what ever it takes to get there. It seems a lot of people opt for the ab-initio route rather than joining the military. Why? Only reasons I can think of, is that they disagree with a the a lot decisions made by the MOD and may think certain things are morally wrong. Or they realise that the RAF/NAVY is damned hard work lol, in which case there passion for a career as a pilot is questionable.
Am i wrong in saying that the RAF/NAVY is the most secure place to be a pilot? And my question is, which airlines are the most reliable in terms of job security? Are there airlines out there, where when you begin employment with them, your 95% near enough guarenteed a job for life with good salary etc?
Also, how long ago was it, when a career as an airline pilot was secure? When was there a demand for pilots? Consistently high salary? Will this ever happen again....?
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A military career is just that, it is not a stepping stone on the way to becoming an airline pilot. The military have a selection criteria and process that trains pilots for various flying roles including front line combat. The requirements are very different and for applicants the vocation should be fully understood. Many military pilots continue a career after their military service, by aquiring the civil licences and working for airlines, but that shouldn't be confused with the fact that these are two distinct and seperate careers.
In the commercial world, you are dealing with commercial realities. Gone are the days of most state funded carriers where there was a degree of security. These days there may be a relative security with carriers who are commercially successful, but that is anything but guaranteed. Flexibility, planning and good luck are the requirements for many of these companies and their employees.
Employment renumeration in a commercial marketplace is driven by supply and demand. If there is a high demand and a low supply then rates (wages) will rise as companies compete for a scarce resource. Conversely if there is weak demand and a plentiful supply, the rates will fall until the price reflects the broader level of the market.
At the present time there is a vast oversupply of low hour pilots. There is very weak and falling demand from the airline companies. There continues to be a need for experienced pilots, but that demand is easily satisfied by the ready supply of experienced pilots who are either unemployed, facing redundancy or now able to extend their career longevity (retirement age raised.) It is quite difficult to see where any significant new demand will come from in the near term. Any improvement at home is likely to be readily satisfied by the the current and projected levels of displacement (pilots working on short term contracts, working overseas, unemployed.) Emerging markets in the near and far East will continue to seek experience for their left seats, but have no shortage of their own keen, bright, teenage wanabees in other respects.
Recent opportunities have shifted towards airlines looking for cost reduction opportunities and shared revenues in the right hand seat. Affiliations with training schools for "tailored" First Officer programmes have enabled training organisations to benefit. These affiliations also enable some airlines to benefit from low cost, low experience pilots, being able to occupy the right seat as a continuation of these training programmes. In order to maintain a cost benefit there would appear to be some limitations on these programmes as a source of providing an ongoing progression within those same companies. Nevertheless it seems to be an increasingly popular route, and possibly the main path for the near term future. The obvious downside, is that these positions are more vocational/ business opportunities, rather than demand driven jobs. As such any renumeration will reflect that reality.
As to the future? Anybody can guess, but nobody can forsee all of the possible permutations that might arise in combination to give a random reality. Pilots wages will rise when demand once again outstrips supply. At some point that will very likely happen. However it may well take legislative and regulatory changes to the entry level requirements to remove a lot of the entry level supply. It will also take significant improvements in the economy to create the necessary increased levels of demand.
In the commercial world, you are dealing with commercial realities. Gone are the days of most state funded carriers where there was a degree of security. These days there may be a relative security with carriers who are commercially successful, but that is anything but guaranteed. Flexibility, planning and good luck are the requirements for many of these companies and their employees.
Employment renumeration in a commercial marketplace is driven by supply and demand. If there is a high demand and a low supply then rates (wages) will rise as companies compete for a scarce resource. Conversely if there is weak demand and a plentiful supply, the rates will fall until the price reflects the broader level of the market.
At the present time there is a vast oversupply of low hour pilots. There is very weak and falling demand from the airline companies. There continues to be a need for experienced pilots, but that demand is easily satisfied by the ready supply of experienced pilots who are either unemployed, facing redundancy or now able to extend their career longevity (retirement age raised.) It is quite difficult to see where any significant new demand will come from in the near term. Any improvement at home is likely to be readily satisfied by the the current and projected levels of displacement (pilots working on short term contracts, working overseas, unemployed.) Emerging markets in the near and far East will continue to seek experience for their left seats, but have no shortage of their own keen, bright, teenage wanabees in other respects.
Recent opportunities have shifted towards airlines looking for cost reduction opportunities and shared revenues in the right hand seat. Affiliations with training schools for "tailored" First Officer programmes have enabled training organisations to benefit. These affiliations also enable some airlines to benefit from low cost, low experience pilots, being able to occupy the right seat as a continuation of these training programmes. In order to maintain a cost benefit there would appear to be some limitations on these programmes as a source of providing an ongoing progression within those same companies. Nevertheless it seems to be an increasingly popular route, and possibly the main path for the near term future. The obvious downside, is that these positions are more vocational/ business opportunities, rather than demand driven jobs. As such any renumeration will reflect that reality.
As to the future? Anybody can guess, but nobody can forsee all of the possible permutations that might arise in combination to give a random reality. Pilots wages will rise when demand once again outstrips supply. At some point that will very likely happen. However it may well take legislative and regulatory changes to the entry level requirements to remove a lot of the entry level supply. It will also take significant improvements in the economy to create the necessary increased levels of demand.
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Wow. That was a detailed a lengthy response which is much appreciated. Thankyou for taking the time to share your knowledge with myself and other wannabe pilots.
I believe there are certain airlines such as Virgin Atlantic whose preferity is to employ ex military pilots. I could imagine this being common amongst most major airlines due to the nature of the highly disciplined training recieved. How much easier (if at all) is it for ex military pilots to gain employment within the commercial airline industry? How much training after military service would be needed in order to convert to a commerical airline pilot?
Is there any kind of predictions from economic experts as to when this might happen then?
I believe there are certain airlines such as Virgin Atlantic whose preferity is to employ ex military pilots. I could imagine this being common amongst most major airlines due to the nature of the highly disciplined training recieved. How much easier (if at all) is it for ex military pilots to gain employment within the commercial airline industry? How much training after military service would be needed in order to convert to a commerical airline pilot?
"As to the future? Anybody can guess, but nobody can forsee all of the possible permutations that might arise in combination to give a random reality. Pilots wages will rise when demand once again outstrips supply. At some point that will very likely happen. However it may well take legislative and regulatory changes to the entry level requirements to remove a lot of the entry level supply. It will also take significant improvements in the economy to create the necessary increased levels of demand."
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Oh yes! Every single one of them has their own economic horoscope.
Whatever they say will either be right, wrong, mis-timed, modified, historically based, broadly accurate, vague, or whatever other justification or excuses they elect to offer.
As a society we hate uncertainty, and we love the idea that people can predict the future, so whole industies have evolved to satisfy that demand. You won't have to look far here to find plenty of evidence of that.
Whatever they say will either be right, wrong, mis-timed, modified, historically based, broadly accurate, vague, or whatever other justification or excuses they elect to offer.
As a society we hate uncertainty, and we love the idea that people can predict the future, so whole industies have evolved to satisfy that demand. You won't have to look far here to find plenty of evidence of that.
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Or they realise that the RAF/NAVY is damned hard work lol, in which case there passion for a career as a pilot is questionable.
Reading the "Job Security - Which airlines?" title immediately brought to mind the letter that Chuck got from NASA...
Congratulations on the new word though......preferity...
Congratulations on the new word though......preferity...
Only reasons I can think of, is that they disagree with a the a lot decisions made by the MOD and may think certain things are morally wrong. Or they realise that the RAF/NAVY is damned hard work lol, in which case there[sic] passion for a career as a pilot is questionable.
It makes me cringe every time I see this word "passion". It's used so often on these forums, yet I've never really seen it defined. I get up every morning (or afternoon, depending on the duty), go to work, enjoy my job and come home. I don't get excited about it, I just do it. Yes, it's very often enjoyable, sometimes stressful, occasionally annoying and every so often you wake up thinking "I really can't be a*sed today". Does the fact I'm not hopping from one foot to the other with excitement everytime I get within 50 yards of an aeroplane mean I not 'passionate' enough for the job?
Does this desire to "do whatever it takes to get there" stretch to such acts as paying the likes of ATP et al for the privelige of being able to ponce around the airport in a nice uniform and enjoying 250 hours in the right hand seat? It does for some, and that's the problem. They claim to have this 'passion for flying', whatever that means, and have absolutely no clue about the downsides of life as an airline pilot - all they can see is the glamorous side, which is becoming less and less so by the day. And I guarantee that you won't be feeling the 'passion' when you're on day 5 of earlies, dodging CBs in the dark on a cold, windy, rainy morning, unable to get a word in on the radio because everyone else is doing the same thing, passengers throwing up in the cabin and FLIDRAS watching your every move.
If you really want to fly because you're 'passionate' about flying, i.e. simply the act of being airborne and not about all the commercial and operational pressures that go with it, do a PPL and leave it at that. And while you're at it, why not define this term 'passion' for us?
damned hard work lol
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Good points made. I did mention in my first post that I am still naive to the commercial airline pilot profession and have a lot to learn. And I also understand that military jet flying is completly different from commerical flying but how much can does commerical airline flying differ from flying the military transport aircraft?
Im guessing you have been doing your job for a long time though so of course your not going to get excited about it. However, when you first began flying, I bet it was hard to contain your excitement?
I want to fly because of many reasons. Not just about being airbourne. I want to fly because I enjoy responsbility and want to learn about aircraft structures, flight systems, aerodynamics. At the moment I have little knowledge in these areas and want to learn more about the operations of aeroplanes etc.
The "lol" is purely intended to add light heartedness into my post.
I apologise if I have offended anybody but my point was that I could not understand new trainee pilots securing hefty loans on there parents houses to train to be a pilot when you can join the RAF/NAVY and do it for free, whilst starting on a 30k salary. If the reason behind it is purely because its completly different type of flying then fair enough.
Tiger_ Moth. I see no reason for insulting language. This is a discussion. I have a lot to learn. I have said I am still quite naive to the industry. So if you can't dicuss things properly like an adult then id appreciate if you keep your childish comments to yourself .
It makes me cringe every time I see this word "passion". It's used so often on these forums, yet I've never really seen it defined. I get up every morning (or afternoon, depending on the duty), go to work, enjoy my job and come home. I don't get excited about it, I just do it. Yes, it's very often enjoyable, sometimes stressful, occasionally annoying and every so often you wake up thinking "I really can't be a*sed today". Does the fact I'm not hopping from one foot to the other with excitement everytime I get within 50 yards of an aeroplane mean I not 'passionate' enough for the job?
If you really want to fly because you're 'passionate' about flying, i.e. simply the act of being airborne and not about all the commercial and operational pressures that go with it, do a PPL and leave it at that. And while you're at it, why not define this term 'passion' for us?
I would imagine it's damned hard work full stop - not sure what your 'lol' is intended to imply, if you must insist on using 'instant messenger speak'.
I apologise if I have offended anybody but my point was that I could not understand new trainee pilots securing hefty loans on there parents houses to train to be a pilot when you can join the RAF/NAVY and do it for free, whilst starting on a 30k salary. If the reason behind it is purely because its completly different type of flying then fair enough.
Tiger_ Moth. I see no reason for insulting language. This is a discussion. I have a lot to learn. I have said I am still quite naive to the industry. So if you can't dicuss things properly like an adult then id appreciate if you keep your childish comments to yourself .
You don't decide to join the military as a pilot. They select you. From a vast pool. Of very dedicated, very focussed, very high calibre, very passionate, very informed, very motivated, very prepared, very able young men and women.
You wouldn't be selected.
Even if you were then there's a very high chop rate during all phases of training which last several years.
Looking towards the military as a means to starting a commercial flying career is a crap plan with tassles.
WWW
You wouldn't be selected.
Even if you were then there's a very high chop rate during all phases of training which last several years.
Looking towards the military as a means to starting a commercial flying career is a crap plan with tassles.
WWW
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Or they realise that the RAF/NAVY is damned hard work
It seems a lot of people opt for the ab-initio route rather than joining the military. Why?
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funkyt111,
I'm afraid your comment was so ridiculous and offensive that it did actually deserve derision.
However, I do agree with you that you are naieve and have a lot to learn about the industry. The military is a career in itself, and you would do well to heed WWW's words about severe chop rates.
The reason I called you a clown is because your comment was ridiculous. According to you my passion for a career as a pilot is questionable because I didn't go through the military. I'm sure a lot of other people found it offensive too, and some of them have already posted to that affect.
I'm not going to apologize for what I said, because I believe it was correct. You can't expect to make statements like that and not have the p**s taken out of you. You just can't!
However, I do accept your apology for offending people and I wish you the best of luck whatever you choose to do.
I'm afraid your comment was so ridiculous and offensive that it did actually deserve derision.
However, I do agree with you that you are naieve and have a lot to learn about the industry. The military is a career in itself, and you would do well to heed WWW's words about severe chop rates.
The reason I called you a clown is because your comment was ridiculous. According to you my passion for a career as a pilot is questionable because I didn't go through the military. I'm sure a lot of other people found it offensive too, and some of them have already posted to that affect.
I'm not going to apologize for what I said, because I believe it was correct. You can't expect to make statements like that and not have the p**s taken out of you. You just can't!
However, I do accept your apology for offending people and I wish you the best of luck whatever you choose to do.
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Yeah i understand the gaining a commercial license is hard work etc but I didnt mean hard work in this way. Apologies, I should have been clearer. I meant the OASC training, the levels of fitness you have to achieve and general life in the RAF/NAVY. Not the career its self.
This I didnt know...
Exactly how difficult is it to get through the training required to fly in the RAF? (As a percentage, how many people get through?)
It is far easier to complete the training, gain a fATPL and get a job with an airline than get through the training required to fly for the RAF
Exactly how difficult is it to get through the training required to fly in the RAF? (As a percentage, how many people get through?)
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Tiger_ Moth
Clearly my posts have been taken the wrong way. I did not mean in any way at all that you are not passionate unless you take the military route. I expect to be called a clown if I thought that. As I explained above, I merely meant that I could not understand why new trainee pilots would opt to secure massive loans on thier parents houses when they could join the RAF and train for free whilst getting paid.
Now that people have explained that there is a HUGE difference between military flying and commerical flying I understand as to why new trainee pilots are making these decisions. Also I now understand that military life isn't for everyone.
Clearly my posts have been taken the wrong way. I did not mean in any way at all that you are not passionate unless you take the military route. I expect to be called a clown if I thought that. As I explained above, I merely meant that I could not understand why new trainee pilots would opt to secure massive loans on thier parents houses when they could join the RAF and train for free whilst getting paid.
Now that people have explained that there is a HUGE difference between military flying and commerical flying I understand as to why new trainee pilots are making these decisions. Also I now understand that military life isn't for everyone.
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Ok then, fair play to you, but it did appear that was what you thought, because it's what you wrote.
I can't speak very authoritatively on chop rates in the RAF, but just going from people I've met over the years, it is very high. Try the military forum for a better idea. Also, there can be frustrating periods of random duties whilst waiting for the next course: ie 6 months doing god knows what after finishing IOT before starting basic flying training and I think it can easily take 3 years or more from joining to get to your frontline squadron (if you make it that far!). That was a reason why someone I knew left.
But anyway, to sum up: if you view the RAF as a cheap way of becoming an airline pilot then that is a crap plan. You're in for about 12 years: that's a long time to be doing something just as a stepping stone.
However, if you actually want to be a military pilot then joining the RAF/ Navy is a good idea and you should go for it.
Also, it's not like if you go the civilian route the only way is to secure a massive loan on your parent's house (which I think is morally wrong). You could always earn the money yourself over 5 or so years doing something else and go modular, thereby spending about half the money for the same licence with the added bonus that you may have a career to fall back on if things go to sh**e like they have now!
Whatever you decide, good luck to you.
I can't speak very authoritatively on chop rates in the RAF, but just going from people I've met over the years, it is very high. Try the military forum for a better idea. Also, there can be frustrating periods of random duties whilst waiting for the next course: ie 6 months doing god knows what after finishing IOT before starting basic flying training and I think it can easily take 3 years or more from joining to get to your frontline squadron (if you make it that far!). That was a reason why someone I knew left.
But anyway, to sum up: if you view the RAF as a cheap way of becoming an airline pilot then that is a crap plan. You're in for about 12 years: that's a long time to be doing something just as a stepping stone.
However, if you actually want to be a military pilot then joining the RAF/ Navy is a good idea and you should go for it.
Also, it's not like if you go the civilian route the only way is to secure a massive loan on your parent's house (which I think is morally wrong). You could always earn the money yourself over 5 or so years doing something else and go modular, thereby spending about half the money for the same licence with the added bonus that you may have a career to fall back on if things go to sh**e like they have now!
Whatever you decide, good luck to you.
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I am all for drilling people but funkyt111 is asking for advice and admits his/her naivity. Perhaps you could have laid off the assumptions in your first post but put that aside.
In response to could you be selected for the RAF the answer is of course yes provided you are British (which isn't a terribly difficult thing to be thses days). The likelyhood of whether you would pass is pretty slim however. Why? Because the RAF, as WWW points out, have:
applying. These people have probably, like myself towards a commercial flying career, tailored their lives towards becoming a military pilot. Trying to compete at the best of times, with the best of motivations is going to be tough.
Being an incredible pilot, military trained does not mean you'll be a good airline pilot. I have met several military pilots from Lynx, Chinook and Merlin backgrounds, through to KC135, VC10 through to Harrier, Tornado and Hawk pilots all who have achieved their commercial licences and still cannot attain an airline flying job. Some are instructing. One did that for a few months and was bored out of his mind and left flying all together.
Don't sign up for the country to potentially spend your life because you think you'll get a free CPL/IR out of it (or at least the knowledge to attain one). And in terms of lifestyle, military pilots lead typically very ordinary lives.
People need to stop trying to overly engineer their futures. Just take a look at the state of our economy to see what happens if you do that (thanks to several terms of a Labour government). Make your decisions for the right reasons, because you want to, because it doesn't have a negative effect on your loved ones and you'll be fine.
In response to could you be selected for the RAF the answer is of course yes provided you are British (which isn't a terribly difficult thing to be thses days). The likelyhood of whether you would pass is pretty slim however. Why? Because the RAF, as WWW points out, have:
very dedicated, very focussed, very high calibre, very passionate, very informed, very motivated, very prepared, very able young men and women
Being an incredible pilot, military trained does not mean you'll be a good airline pilot. I have met several military pilots from Lynx, Chinook and Merlin backgrounds, through to KC135, VC10 through to Harrier, Tornado and Hawk pilots all who have achieved their commercial licences and still cannot attain an airline flying job. Some are instructing. One did that for a few months and was bored out of his mind and left flying all together.
Don't sign up for the country to potentially spend your life because you think you'll get a free CPL/IR out of it (or at least the knowledge to attain one). And in terms of lifestyle, military pilots lead typically very ordinary lives.
People need to stop trying to overly engineer their futures. Just take a look at the state of our economy to see what happens if you do that (thanks to several terms of a Labour government). Make your decisions for the right reasons, because you want to, because it doesn't have a negative effect on your loved ones and you'll be fine.
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Funky t111, I commend you on the way you have handled some of the responses received regarding your initial post, you are young, new to the industry and seeking some advice for your research, thats all.
We were once all in your position and quite naive to the industry, I know I was and discussions with pilots and students throughout training highlighted this, often over a beer and brought humour to the conversation.
Buried in the responses is some useful info, Military selection is tough and not a free ticket to a future in the airlines, the calibre of candidates is extremely high, and the selection procedure is a long and difficult road, I know several military pilots but even more who didnt complete training. Where as in civilian flying, I dont know anyone who has started training and not completed it.
As for job security, look at the companies who have gone, and the companies that have laid off, the industries big names appear on the list, when times are tough aviation suffers, always has done, first to suffer going into a reccesion and last to recover coming out.
Of course you have a passion, we all have, agreed the word is used a tad to much on these forums, but you havent posted saying I want to wear a uniform and earn loads of money and have fun with hosties, you have posted because you want to fly, correct?
Good luck to you
We were once all in your position and quite naive to the industry, I know I was and discussions with pilots and students throughout training highlighted this, often over a beer and brought humour to the conversation.
Buried in the responses is some useful info, Military selection is tough and not a free ticket to a future in the airlines, the calibre of candidates is extremely high, and the selection procedure is a long and difficult road, I know several military pilots but even more who didnt complete training. Where as in civilian flying, I dont know anyone who has started training and not completed it.
As for job security, look at the companies who have gone, and the companies that have laid off, the industries big names appear on the list, when times are tough aviation suffers, always has done, first to suffer going into a reccesion and last to recover coming out.
Of course you have a passion, we all have, agreed the word is used a tad to much on these forums, but you havent posted saying I want to wear a uniform and earn loads of money and have fun with hosties, you have posted because you want to fly, correct?
Good luck to you
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Tiger_ Moth
Thankyou for your advice.
Im 80% sure I'm going to go to university to study Aerospace Engineering with pilot studies before training to be a pilot. So I'll have a degree to fall back on if things do go pear shaped or I cant be a pilot for whatever reason.
I won't be joining the RAF/NAVY as a stepping stone to becoming an airline pilot. Im just thinking about life after military life. You can only be a RAF/NAVY pilot till the age of 40. I'd like to think it would be easy to convert to a commercial airline pilot after military service....
Thankyou for your advice.
Im 80% sure I'm going to go to university to study Aerospace Engineering with pilot studies before training to be a pilot. So I'll have a degree to fall back on if things do go pear shaped or I cant be a pilot for whatever reason.
I won't be joining the RAF/NAVY as a stepping stone to becoming an airline pilot. Im just thinking about life after military life. You can only be a RAF/NAVY pilot till the age of 40. I'd like to think it would be easy to convert to a commercial airline pilot after military service....