any job on B737 with 500hrs on type or better to pay for A320 TR

[EK4457]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Sure, I'd love the pay to fly schemes to stop advertising on here, but I can't stop them. This means I should just accept these people buggering up the industry and keep quiet? No. Like I say, anyone with a backbone would have their say.

The contradiction here is actually yours. You are spending time posting on PPRUNE saying that you should not waste your time posting on PPRUNE if you disagree with a point of view. No?

You speak like a captain. If so, of course you don't judge 'your' FOs. This doesn't adversly affect you one bit.

I'm sure you'd be happy if you stopped flying for six months to let some wannabe captains pay to get left hand experience?

Raising hell? A little OTT, I can do much worse!

EK

[Abagnale]

BB driver,
I am a captain aswell and what you're trying to prove here is absolute crap.You don't care about the industry and thousands of people like you don't care either,that's why the profession which I always used to be proud of,is full of s**t nowadays...Do you realize,that the company you're working for is actually not spending money on training,on the other hand they get benefits from their crew,but the money saved don't go into your pocket and the pockets of your fellow crew members,they're just making top management richer...So if we think logically here,if the company is not investing anything in crew training,then obviously the guys at least should have better working conditions and some benefits...They get nothing instead,miserable salary and huge debt behind their backs which make their lives very miserable and,unfortunately,tommorrow,or day after tommorrow,people willing to give anything to fly will replace you and me...So think before writing,the world will only be better when we'll start to think globally,aviation is a passion,and why doctors cannot buy their way to the surgery room and a lot of people in this industry can?It's just not fair,don't you think so?

[Boingboingdriver]

So looks like we disagree..saying i talk crap is bit harsh..
Lets take ryan air..they are recruiting Cadets FOs only...i know many fos with 2500 hrs jet time hoping to fly for them..well no chance because cadets with 200 hours get their seat..is that more fair?and i doubt their training level to be poor
I heard MY travel was hiring people for line training.turk airlines..Astraeus...and so on..what can we do??join a union?will they change anything? i doubt it..

So yes we can moan and cry for those guys taking our jobs but lets be realistic it wont change any..lets face it so many things are wrong in aviation..

My point was just to stop whining in a website which advertises TRTOs and maybe help/convince the guy by giving proper advice rather than insulting him..

Peaceful flights to all of you

[dartagnan]

EAGLEJET Sucks!

I know 10 guys who has been ripped off by this french Stephane of my butts!!!!

[mrx111]

I didn't pay for any hours before, I payed for my B737 TR and got the F/O job immediately after I've finisned my TR. I had to leave the company due to current economical situation in aviation and right now I want to keep my experience current, that's the reason for buying some line hours. I still have the second job outside the airline business to make my money but I like flying so it's not meaningless for me even if I've to pay for flying. The reason for considering A320 TR is because I know about some offers, where is A320 TR required with 0 hrs on type. I'd better stay on B737, but at the current situation how long do I have to wait to get a new F/O job? I can move anywhere.

[OVC008]

Hi to all..

I'm gonna have to agree with BBD. It's not about how pilots can do what they love to do, it's about how to advise them and telling them the best way to do it. It's really sad to have to pay for work nowadays, but again, that's the world we have, and we just have to live with it.
Myself, i got my 737 TR self sponsored, i was employed by the same company, and it will end next month, due to finding some cockpit space to put new pilots on line training. And as maybe for all of you, it's hard not to get the chance of doing what we like without having to pay for it, but there's no other way.
After next month i will just get back on the queue, and wait for this to recover.
I won't pay for another TR or even more hours, coz yes, it's not correct to do so, but do i regret about this time i've been flying, even having to pay for it at the beginning? NO WAY!
It was a great experience, which i hope to continue ASAP.
So if one is having doubts about how to continue their career, and if you all don't agree with it, just say it's better to wait than to keep wasting money on what we should be earning from. Don't judge.
In my opinion, yes it's not correct, and as i said i will go back on the line. But if the man has this opportunity to keep paying for work, well, good for him, maybe he'll do good someday.

happy landings

[gettingtherebyplane]

I have not paid for TR however I don't see what the big deal is...

If thats the path he has chosen and it is perfectly legal then so be it. Stop whinging - build a bridge and get over it.

[Zippy Monster]

Could you please tell us which airlines are hiring with 0 hours on the Bus?

Even if there were any, you'd be somewhere in a very VERY long queue. Unless you have come through some form of cadetship where you are put forward to the airline (like with CTC, for example, or Ryanair's programme), you don't have a hope of finding anyone recruiting on to the 'bus with 0hrs on type at the moment.

[X-BleedOpen]

Even if there were any, you'd be somewhere in a very VERY long queue. Unless you have come through some form of cadetship where you are put forward to the airline (like with CTC, for example, or Ryanair's programme), you don't have a hope of finding anyone recruiting on to the 'bus with 0hrs on type at the moment.

I know... it is exactly why I was asking this... cuz another colleague wrote this a couple posts above...

The reason for considering A320 TR is because I know about some offers, where is A320 TR required with 0 hrs on type

[EK4457]

gettingtherebyplane

It's not so much the SSTR that is decimating the industry. Whilst not ideal, they are nothing new.

It's paying £10,000 to fly 500 hours. You are, without question, stopping a real pilot from earning a living from their profession and paying bills. All because you have, quite litereally, money to burn.

OVC008

You openly admit to pouring tens of thousands of pounds into a pay to fly scheme and have no job. Yet you seem to be happy, even thankful. Surely this borders on the perverse?

Digging your way out of a hole springs to mind.......

[tigermagicjohn]

If so many pilots thinks this is so bad, why don't pilots at the airline refuse to fly with Pay to Fly FO's?

Where is their loyality to their own?
Or is it only the tight pocketed wannabes forum here who think like this?

I agree it is wrong to pay, but LHS pilots - but why just blame the ones who pay for it, if pilots could be UNITED it would not be a problem -

[Nearly There]

if the man has this opportunity to keep paying for work, well, good for him, maybe he'll do good someday.

Paying to work an opportunity now?

Work= A job, Employment, A Trade, A Proffesion or other means of Livelihood.

OVC008 you really need to step back and see the big picture here, people buying hours on commercial revenue generating aircraft are putting people out of work! simple as.
You are now back in the que for a job, somebody else by your own admission is now paying to do the 'job' you have trained and paid for and you think the whole farce is acceptable.

[tigermagicjohn]

Why does everybody just want to fly B737 or A320?

That is still beyond me, every time that's the only job it seems newbies are searching for. SO WRONG!

[5 RINGS]

Why do you guys expect LH seaters to stand up and cures a problem that you bunch of muppets created????

I really don't get it...

the only way to stop pay to fly schemes is to dry up any credit source...and the current recession does just that...because you guys haven't got enough selfrespect and brain cells to reject these 'offers'.

Result is now that some contratc companies start to look for NON RATED DEC willing to pay for their TR.

Start to buy your way in the business, and this business will make you pay til you're dead...

[Flintstone]

Firstly I'm of the opinion that the OP is a troll on a mission but it's interesting to see just how many people jump to the defense of this odious practice. 5 Rings, Nearly There, EK4457 and others, you're wasting your breath. Or pixels. Or whatever. We've been telling these people for years how firstly the SSTR and then buying hours would be a major factor in the erosion of terms and conditions.

In all of these threads the proponents of this self-induced reaming argue that it's here to stay so live with it. Tell me this, why is it here? Because people like them encourage it regardless of what it does to our profession and the finer people in it. 5 Rings hit the nail squarely on the head. Stop paying money and the schemes die. The standard riposte of "It's not our fault and all you captains and LTC's should stand up for us" is absolute tosh as well so let's not pull that one out of the box of standard excuses.

Originally Posted by OVC008

...but there's no other way.

Yes there is. It was good enough for me and others but the 'pay-to-fly- brigade want it all now, now, now so won't take it. Then they complain about being kicked out of their seats to make way for the next wave of customers. Sorry, no sympathy for them.





* In the loosest possible sense and I bow to Nearly There's definition of a job.

[tigermagicjohn]

BALPA, Captains - anyone connected to flying if stand united could stop the pay to fly schemes, the captains have much experience with the airlines, normally they have worked there for many years.

By accepting to fly with FO's who have little experience, and pay to fly - they are assisting to ruin their own T&C's, and fellow pilots working with them in the industry.

There will always be people with to much money, and not enough brains - why would pilots support these schemes, when it seems everyone is against them.

Are they afraid to speak up in the real world, because it seems here on PPRUNE everyone is very upset with this, which I do understand - but by accepting your FO's is a pay to play pilot, you are yourself undermining your own job!

Why should it be the newbies who must say, "I have never worked in the industry, if I pay and pay, I maybe increase my chance - " for the newbie it's still new and exciting - and "it's a work" is secondary - they/we all want to achieve the dream.

But you pilots already there, are controlling the situation, you have had great T&C's in the past, however you have helped to lower the standards of the T&C's for the newer generation of pilots, by accepting all kind of BS - to secure your own job and future at the airline.

Lowering of these standards are to blame for much of todays problems in the industry. It is understandable, but do not alone lay the blame at the new wannabes, because this situation has been allowed by pilots who already have a safe and sound job - and probably worry less of these problems then a newly educated ATPL.

Still I do not understand why not more pilots look for smaller jobs in the start, it all as to be a big JET!

[The Beer Hunter]

Utter tosh.

Relatively few of those in the LH seat will have bought their (RH) seat and almost certainly not hours. Most captains will have worked their way up through the ranks because that's the way it used to be done. So why should they now jeopardise their own careers to help people who will not help themselves by simply keeping their money in their pockets?

If people stop buying into these schemes they stop immediately. Start taking responsibility and stop whinging.

[tigermagicjohn]

Is it utter tosh that T & C's for pilots used to be better in the past?

I know few pilots who told me it used to be better before, so who have accepted lowering of the T & C's to be able to maintain their own jobs - and to help their airlines more competitive?

When an airline have wanted to implent a policy of pay to fly pilots they must have done in connection with "some" experienced pilots - who saw this as a viable alterantive with regards to training and security. To set up selection criteria that would have to be done together with one or other chief pilot, or would it be bean counters setting up the selection process and assesing canditates if they are suitable to work for free, pay to fly?

At some stage, some experienced captain, training captain, must have been asked the question are you willing to train Mr X, and make him ready to fly for our airline. He will get X hours, which he has paid for, and after that we might hire him, or say goodbye to him!

Or do airlines not use experienced pilots in their selection process for potenial FO's?

Could the following situation arised in one airline, for us to be able to keep XXX amount of pilot jobs, and to keep the costs down, we need to hire XX amount of Pay to fly pilots.
The established pilots would then accept this, if not XX amount of pilots would have to loose their jobs to balance the books.

Since there is airlines needing pay to fly pilots, these pay to fly pilots are most likely saving a few of the experienced pilots jobs - so to lay the blame at the ones who pay alone is not entirely correct.

The airlines use this for their own benefit, and probably some experienced pilots benefit from this too by keeping their job, and these are the same who accept to fly with the pay to fly pilots.

[The Beer Hunter]

Jesus . I thought we needed a reasonable IQ to become pilots?

1. Who is giving these airlines their money?

2. How many candidates will these airlines get if people stop giving them money?

3. How long will it take for the supply of new FO's to dry up if people stop buying their way in?

It doesn't get any simpler than that.

[mikehammer]

Beer Hunter

Opinion posing as factual answers as follows:

1. Those desperate enough for a job, lacking the help from someone who already has a job in the industry who can help by recommending them (who knows anyone like that these days?), and, even more obviously, those having access to the required funding.

2. More than you might think. As far as I can tell from much reading in aviation press, and from gossip on the shop floor, there are many experienced FOs without work. These are unlikely to be an answer to Q1 above. Without (as your question demands) a supply of those people "giving" airlines money, airlines may be forced to rethink and take non payers (which I suspect is your angle).

3. Never.