Would you settle for this offer
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Would you settle for this offer
Hi all
I want you to tell me whether this job offer sounds reasonable. If you were a CPL holder with no other flying experience under your belt, but had the money to pursue further ratings to make would you consider signing up for this offer.
Here's the requirement from the company.
The company is based in India.
YOu need an Indian CPL with 20 hours Multi time, IR and RTR/COP.
Total time required 500hrs. 300 hrs line training on A320
A320 TR certificate and current.
Class 1 DGCA medical.
(The line training and A320TR) to be self-sponsored by candidate)
The company guarantees job as FO with this qualification but no pay for the first 18 months. At completion of 18 months, company will induct you as FO with full pay scale.
Does this sound reasonable considering the tough economic times we are in.
I want you to tell me whether this job offer sounds reasonable. If you were a CPL holder with no other flying experience under your belt, but had the money to pursue further ratings to make would you consider signing up for this offer.
Here's the requirement from the company.
The company is based in India.
YOu need an Indian CPL with 20 hours Multi time, IR and RTR/COP.
Total time required 500hrs. 300 hrs line training on A320
A320 TR certificate and current.
Class 1 DGCA medical.
(The line training and A320TR) to be self-sponsored by candidate)
The company guarantees job as FO with this qualification but no pay for the first 18 months. At completion of 18 months, company will induct you as FO with full pay scale.
Does this sound reasonable considering the tough economic times we are in.
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So you pay them for 300 hours of line training (6 months+ if they have a training captain constantly available?). How much is that?
You then "work" for them for 18 months for free?
They then "guarantee" you a job as a salaried First Officer? What salary? Can they actually do that if you are not a national of that Country? How do you qualify for a work permit?
Only you can decide, but if it's of any interest, I have a bridge for sale in New York, that I can do a very good deal on.
You then "work" for them for 18 months for free?
They then "guarantee" you a job as a salaried First Officer? What salary? Can they actually do that if you are not a national of that Country? How do you qualify for a work permit?
Only you can decide, but if it's of any interest, I have a bridge for sale in New York, that I can do a very good deal on.
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The information provided is correct. I know it sounds crazy but it is not.
This is open only to Indian nationals. EXpats are not allowed to join.
The line training can be done with them, or can be purchased from any other company. The only thing that matters to them is that you have 300hr on type.
And yes, no pay for initial 18 months.
This is open only to Indian nationals. EXpats are not allowed to join.
The line training can be done with them, or can be purchased from any other company. The only thing that matters to them is that you have 300hr on type.
And yes, no pay for initial 18 months.
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No not crazy at all. In fact if I owned a company and could convince the authorities to let me have inexperienced pilots in the right hand seat who will not only pay my company for being permitted to operate there, but also to agree to work for nothing for the following year and a half, I would jump at the chance. Could this be extended to Captains as well, so that you get promoted upon payment of an additional fee for the command course, and then pay for the command line training, and agree to operate in the left seat for 2 years for nothing?
With such a massive reduction in costs we could cut our fares and completely undercut the market. The passengers pay less, the pilots pay more. I wonder if the cabin crew and engineers would be tempted by a similar offer?
Vanity publishing has nothing on this. Provided nothing goes wrong and the passengers are blissfully unaware, I can't see the problem at all.
In all honesty I would go for it!
With such a massive reduction in costs we could cut our fares and completely undercut the market. The passengers pay less, the pilots pay more. I wonder if the cabin crew and engineers would be tempted by a similar offer?
Vanity publishing has nothing on this. Provided nothing goes wrong and the passengers are blissfully unaware, I can't see the problem at all.
In all honesty I would go for it!
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In fact if I owned a company and could convince the authorities to let me have inexperienced pilots in the right hand seat who will not only pay my company for being permitted to operate there, but also to agree to work for nothing for the following year and a half, I would jump at the chance.
With such a massive reduction in costs we could cut our fares and completely undercut the market. The passengers pay less, the pilots pay more.
The brutal truth I suppose is yes, it works as a short term business model for minimising staff costs, but is that sustainable?? Hope not.
To the OP, the offer certainly leaves a bitter taste in the mouth even in this dire economic mess. I'd say this company were completely taking advantage of desperate 200-hour fATPLs...
If you go for the job you will IMO financially be worse off than when you started. Apart from remaining current and having a few hundred extra hours you will be [further] in debt, under some kind of bonded scheme (one would assume) working for free. In 18 months we may even be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel that is economic growth after a year or two (take cover optimists...) so better offers may be available for the picking.
Tough call, depends how desperate your circumstances are...
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Well thank **** you don't own a company then!
Once there is an accident where this type of practice is cited as either a causal or casual factor, you can bet your life the relevant authorities will put a stop to, or severely curtail the practice, so the author might as well take advantage of the situation whilst he still can.
Paying for 300 hours of line training on an A320 does sound rather expensive, but at the end of it I suppose you do have 300 hours of A320 time in your log book? If the company then allows you to carry on working for them without you having to pay them a penny, what a bargain compared to the previous experience of working for them, where you paid handsomely for the privilige. You can always do another job in your free time to make ends meet, or tap up an understanding relative or something. In the meantime the airline only has to pay one salary so everybody is happy. What could possibly be wrong with that?
The only other question I have is what happens at the point the airline has to start paying you as a salaried First Officer under the terms of its guarantee? Perhaps I am being sceptical, but won't they be slightly more interested in the new people who will be paying them hard cash for line training, and the "graduates" who will then work for free? Why would you need to start paying a salary? Unless they promise to stop this practice after a certain number of people have signed up, or the pyramid can only get bigger?
I think I would want to run this "guarantee" through a lawyer myself, if I was relying on it for any meaningful purpose.
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The only other question I have is what happens at the point the airline has to start paying you as a salaried First Officer under the terms of its guarantee? Perhaps I am being sceptical, but won't they be slightly more interested in the new people who will be paying them hard cash for line training, and the "graduates" who will then work for free? Why would you need to start paying a salary? Unless they promise to stop this practice after a certain number of people have signed up, or the pyramid can only get bigger?
I think that is a bit unfair. If this company can do it why shouldn't my theoretical company be allowed to compete on the same level playing field?
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There might be one possible advantge with this scheme.
Having completed 300 hrs Line Training at least you can remain current and build experience whilst looking for a 'real job'. It's easier to move from a job to a job.
I'm sure very few folks would choose to tough it out for 18 months in order to win the prize of an Indian Local Salary. You can dive out the door once employment is secured.
Having completed 300 hrs Line Training at least you can remain current and build experience whilst looking for a 'real job'. It's easier to move from a job to a job.
I'm sure very few folks would choose to tough it out for 18 months in order to win the prize of an Indian Local Salary. You can dive out the door once employment is secured.
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There's only one word required here....regulation
It seems ridiculous that these low life companies are beyond legal recourse whereby they ask people to work for them for free (although equally the pilot is as culpable!!) I have seen this sort of rubbish before, and in fact in one instance the company were taken to task by the department of employment for not paying employees at least minimum legal wage. The pertinent word here is EMPLOYEE. This said, there are always going to be areas of the world where immoral and unethical things like this happen.
Its bad enough that people are being made to pay for their own training / TR. That to me indicates no commitment at all from the employer, which in itself breeds a very bad, intrinsically dangerous attitude. To take it further and work for free for 18 months in a so called professional airline operation is just plain nuts and is diluting future terms and conditions for all of us.
Its a totally short termist view and personally I wouldn't do it.
It seems ridiculous that these low life companies are beyond legal recourse whereby they ask people to work for them for free (although equally the pilot is as culpable!!) I have seen this sort of rubbish before, and in fact in one instance the company were taken to task by the department of employment for not paying employees at least minimum legal wage. The pertinent word here is EMPLOYEE. This said, there are always going to be areas of the world where immoral and unethical things like this happen.
Its bad enough that people are being made to pay for their own training / TR. That to me indicates no commitment at all from the employer, which in itself breeds a very bad, intrinsically dangerous attitude. To take it further and work for free for 18 months in a so called professional airline operation is just plain nuts and is diluting future terms and conditions for all of us.
Its a totally short termist view and personally I wouldn't do it.
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If you're prepared to be raped & pillaged by this company then go ahead.
Nobody should be so desperate that they are prepared to work for free. Why would you even consider it? What's wrong with you people?
Nobody should be so desperate that they are prepared to work for free. Why would you even consider it? What's wrong with you people?
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"Real Job" ? Are you suggesting this isn't a real job? Ok I know I you are paying them initially, but to be fair they are going to let you "work" on their airplane, so it must be a "real" job? They still let you work even though you stop paying them, so still a job. Then they "guarantee" to pay you a salary of still vague quantity, so most definetaly a real job.
If you are unhappy with this arrangement you can always jump ship to where? Not "my company" matey as I have adopted the same practice in order to stay competitive and my low experienced pilots are happy to pay me and then work for free. You can always try down the road, unless they too have decided they need to remain competitive with me and them and so on and so on.
This is what happened 20 years ago with bonding. One company decided it was a money saver and before you know it, most everybody else had decided on the same thing. Now it is almost impossible to find a company that doesn't bond in one form or another. Lately it is paying for your own type rating. Next, it seems you pay for your line training. Then you work for nothing for 18 months...24 months.....36 months?
That is why I say do it. Get in before the pyramid crumbles. The problem is that 2 years down the road there may be even less demand for 1000 hour First officers (who aren't prepared to pay us, or work for free), than there is now.
If you are unhappy with this arrangement you can always jump ship to where? Not "my company" matey as I have adopted the same practice in order to stay competitive and my low experienced pilots are happy to pay me and then work for free. You can always try down the road, unless they too have decided they need to remain competitive with me and them and so on and so on.
This is what happened 20 years ago with bonding. One company decided it was a money saver and before you know it, most everybody else had decided on the same thing. Now it is almost impossible to find a company that doesn't bond in one form or another. Lately it is paying for your own type rating. Next, it seems you pay for your line training. Then you work for nothing for 18 months...24 months.....36 months?
That is why I say do it. Get in before the pyramid crumbles. The problem is that 2 years down the road there may be even less demand for 1000 hour First officers (who aren't prepared to pay us, or work for free), than there is now.
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People are willing to engage in these schemes because they can see no way ahead. A dormant frozen ATPL with a MEP rating sat on their side board is hardly what they sat out to achieve!
They believe that IF they can get 500 - 1000 hours on a commercial type there might be a job. They are probably right if you give it some time.
I'm not sure that they are an 'employee' but more a private individual on a 'training scheme'. I don't think employment law can therefore be applied.
Remember: half the don't pay to fly gang on here are the first to be running down this track armed with daddy's fat wallet!!!
They believe that IF they can get 500 - 1000 hours on a commercial type there might be a job. They are probably right if you give it some time.
I'm not sure that they are an 'employee' but more a private individual on a 'training scheme'. I don't think employment law can therefore be applied.
Remember: half the don't pay to fly gang on here are the first to be running down this track armed with daddy's fat wallet!!!
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Bignumber,
I understand that completely. Although some might have to punch their way through my veneer of sarcasm, I really don't blame individuals for being attracted to, or signing up to these schemes. To some extent I don't blame the operators for offering these schemes either. If the regulator and the insurance companies and the travelling public are happy with it, who am I to criticise?
The problem is that eventually it becomes self defeating. Like all pyramids it needs to keep enticing new blood to succeed. What use is a First Officer with 1000 hours experience on type, if all the airlines want is 250 hour folk who are willing to rent the seat for any number of months. When they then work for free, they are not quite as attractive as the "payers", but none the less far better than actually having to pay someone to sit there. Unchecked, I can see these pages in 10 years time being filled with threads saying "what use is 1000 hours on an airbus, when the airlines won't pay me and only want renters in the right hand seat?" Perhaps the next generation of 4000 hour captains will also need to pay their way into the job. It only takes enough people willing to do it, to procure their advantage and voila you have a market. Hopefully that won't happen, but you are seeing the early shoots now.
As for daddies and their thick wallets, I think I need to take a stand in defence of daddies. Firstly those thick wallets are getting a lot thinner these days. There seems to be a general perception that us daddies happily pander to any whim our offspring present us with, and that we will abandon all common sense and caution and sign away our homes and savings in an attempt to make the fruit of our loins look like Leonardo de Caprio in that film where he was draped in wall to wall stewardesses. Popular misconception I am afraid. Those thick wallets were not amassed by our collective stupidity. More so, our offspring have only recently stopped their 5 year campaign of targetted hatred against us, for having the sheer affrontery to bring them forth into this world. Although we are naturally relieved and bemused by this new found desire and ambition on their part, and we are reticent to do anything to discourage this single minded doggedness, we still retain a healthy suspicion, scepticism and sense of proportion for the most part. Alas, whilst we may be happy to lend them proceeds from the treasury, they will not be given the keys to the kingdom just yet.
Parents will rightly do all they can to help their children achieve a goal (whatever it might be,) but the idea that they will sacrifice themselves in the process, is a tad old fashioned these days. It might have been true up to the age of 13, but we have had to develop a sense of preservation during the subsequent 5 years, so that both we and the offspring actually survived each day!
I understand that completely. Although some might have to punch their way through my veneer of sarcasm, I really don't blame individuals for being attracted to, or signing up to these schemes. To some extent I don't blame the operators for offering these schemes either. If the regulator and the insurance companies and the travelling public are happy with it, who am I to criticise?
The problem is that eventually it becomes self defeating. Like all pyramids it needs to keep enticing new blood to succeed. What use is a First Officer with 1000 hours experience on type, if all the airlines want is 250 hour folk who are willing to rent the seat for any number of months. When they then work for free, they are not quite as attractive as the "payers", but none the less far better than actually having to pay someone to sit there. Unchecked, I can see these pages in 10 years time being filled with threads saying "what use is 1000 hours on an airbus, when the airlines won't pay me and only want renters in the right hand seat?" Perhaps the next generation of 4000 hour captains will also need to pay their way into the job. It only takes enough people willing to do it, to procure their advantage and voila you have a market. Hopefully that won't happen, but you are seeing the early shoots now.
As for daddies and their thick wallets, I think I need to take a stand in defence of daddies. Firstly those thick wallets are getting a lot thinner these days. There seems to be a general perception that us daddies happily pander to any whim our offspring present us with, and that we will abandon all common sense and caution and sign away our homes and savings in an attempt to make the fruit of our loins look like Leonardo de Caprio in that film where he was draped in wall to wall stewardesses. Popular misconception I am afraid. Those thick wallets were not amassed by our collective stupidity. More so, our offspring have only recently stopped their 5 year campaign of targetted hatred against us, for having the sheer affrontery to bring them forth into this world. Although we are naturally relieved and bemused by this new found desire and ambition on their part, and we are reticent to do anything to discourage this single minded doggedness, we still retain a healthy suspicion, scepticism and sense of proportion for the most part. Alas, whilst we may be happy to lend them proceeds from the treasury, they will not be given the keys to the kingdom just yet.
Parents will rightly do all they can to help their children achieve a goal (whatever it might be,) but the idea that they will sacrifice themselves in the process, is a tad old fashioned these days. It might have been true up to the age of 13, but we have had to develop a sense of preservation during the subsequent 5 years, so that both we and the offspring actually survived each day!
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Is it Go air? If so,dont... If not,then just go ahead and take the offer..Dont forget that there are a couple of thousand unemployed CPLs in the country...If you got the money just do it,even if this particular airline does not hire you,there are many others who will be willing to take you in after 18months..
If not,then just go ahead and take the offer..Dont forget that there are a couple of thousand unemployed CPLs in the country...If you got the money just do it,even if this particular airline does not hire you,there are many others who will be willing to take you in after 18months..
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More so, our offspring have only recently stopped their 5 year campaign of targetted hatred against us, for having the sheer affrontery to bring them forth into this world.
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Hi Bealzebub,
Yep, flying certainly wouldn't pass 'due diligence' as an investment would it!
I feel rather cheated on the glamour part of my gig. They didn't film Captain Leonardo cleaning / unblocking the loo on his Citation Jet in North Africa having operated 'privately' for 20 hours did they.
Yep, flying certainly wouldn't pass 'due diligence' as an investment would it!
I feel rather cheated on the glamour part of my gig. They didn't film Captain Leonardo cleaning / unblocking the loo on his Citation Jet in North Africa having operated 'privately' for 20 hours did they.
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Bloody hell, if ever I smelt grudgery so sweet I cannot remember it!
To the OP, it's your decision, and uninformed replies from uninformed posters on an internet forum can never help you reach that.
Are there any other jobs that will actually pay you to fly?
If not, and if you can afford it, go for it... And regarding people considering this immoral to experienced pilots, India's a
up country anyway, might as well treat it as a playground until the economy kills it completely...
Ad
To the OP, it's your decision, and uninformed replies from uninformed posters on an internet forum can never help you reach that.
Are there any other jobs that will actually pay you to fly?
If not, and if you can afford it, go for it... And regarding people considering this immoral to experienced pilots, India's a
up country anyway, might as well treat it as a playground until the economy kills it completely...Ad
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I don't know Reluctant, I do find myself agreeing with you on here quite a lot, but I still think that this place is the source of some good advice. I can see the arguement in paying for a TR, but working for free just seems to be ridiculous. Even if I was looking for a job i'm not sure that I would take this.
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Aircraft seat configuration
Might be applicable to increase some of such airlines cabin capacity (Available Revenue Seats) by 1 extra seat - the F/O seat... Hopefully, these F/O will also receive "miles" if these airlines are member of "One World" - or "Star Allaince"... Will they get free catering, or pay for the Coca Cola...?
xxx
Happy contrails
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