Is MPL finally taking off? (now with job guarantee?)
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All things considered together as a whole smells a lil' fishy to me???
If they didn't send you any more info than what is on there website I wouldn't be flying to Holland either. Have they not thought that people have to get there and should be entitled to have some comprehensive information before deciding to go to one of their open days? Maybe the reason is that they don't have the information themselves?
But i still like the idea of learning in a small plane, on your own about half of the time, with the occasional brown underpants moment to show you that you don’t know it all...
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From what i've read MPL's need 60 hrs SE, surely if the rest of the training is jet sim based instead of just the last 20-50 hrs then the result is a better bet for the airlines.
If its light twins you want to fly then fine but there is a big difference between them and a 737/ Airbus, so if the training is focused on the objective surely thats better.
Yes 30-40 years ago there was no choice but now there is, do you stay in the stone age or do you use the best facilities available ?
It all depends what you want to do.
If its light twins you want to fly then fine but there is a big difference between them and a 737/ Airbus, so if the training is focused on the objective surely thats better.
Yes 30-40 years ago there was no choice but now there is, do you stay in the stone age or do you use the best facilities available ?
It all depends what you want to do.
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they still do a small amount of basic training in a real plane, but not very much compared to the normal training path...
you have your whole career to play with jets and autopilots, light planes are fun, why not learn to fly that way? just my two cents
you have your whole career to play with jets and autopilots, light planes are fun, why not learn to fly that way? just my two cents
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Bottom line:Who would you employ?
It all boils down to getting a job at the end of the day.
If training Captains are faced with a CPL/MEP/IR/MCC and an MPL both straight out of training with good results, who is most likely to get the job? Any Captains with a view on this?
If training Captains are faced with a CPL/MEP/IR/MCC and an MPL both straight out of training with good results, who is most likely to get the job? Any Captains with a view on this?
they still do a small amount of basic training in a real plane, but not very much compared to the normal training path...
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The world is changing....
So about half of the traditional ATPL
I've read the arguments but a lot of them make no sense at all. It looks like the main argument is the flighttime but did you know that MPL only excluded the "build time" hours and VFR. So those "build time" hours are now done in the big jet with an experienced captain beside you (just in case, the FO is normally trained for pilot incapacitation). Don't forget that flying these days isn't the same as 20 years ago when you were almost the only one flying in the area, with no other crew to deal with, at low altitudes and doing 120 kts in a SEP.
Have you ever heard of TEM and do you know what that is? (It's a very important issue and you might read a little more on that on http://www.flightsafety.org/pdf/tem/...pt_12-6-06.pdf
And what about focus on MCC from the beginning of the training? Or starting with SOP's from the first days already? Most flightschools don't focus on those subjects but MPL does and those subjects are not of least importance.
One more thing
But i still like the idea of learning in a small plane, on your own about half of the time, with the occasional brown underpants moment to show you that you don’t know it all...
Last edited by SMJP; 7th Feb 2009 at 21:34.
Most flightschools don't focus on those subjects but MPL does and those subjects are not of least importance.
What do you mean by "build time"?
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EWSD02,
Your question is irrelevant at this point in the development cycle of MPL. MPL will be for cadets and the recruiters will choose them before they start or perhaps halfway through their course, not Captains after they finish.
You could rephrase the question to see what Captains prefer, but their say in the matter will only go as far as their influence within their company on whether or not to offer an MPL Cadetship. This is not insignificant, as many Captains are opposed to MPL, but once the decision is made, the debate will wait for the results on the line.
The only MPL so far in the UK is FlyBe. The Cadets are chosen in advance and will train at FTE, though I hear rumours that OAA will get a batch of them as well.
Your question is irrelevant at this point in the development cycle of MPL. MPL will be for cadets and the recruiters will choose them before they start or perhaps halfway through their course, not Captains after they finish.
You could rephrase the question to see what Captains prefer, but their say in the matter will only go as far as their influence within their company on whether or not to offer an MPL Cadetship. This is not insignificant, as many Captains are opposed to MPL, but once the decision is made, the debate will wait for the results on the line.
The only MPL so far in the UK is FlyBe. The Cadets are chosen in advance and will train at FTE, though I hear rumours that OAA will get a batch of them as well.
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MPL in the development cycle??
Adios,
To correct it: MPL is not in the development cycle, it's developed already and the question is whether or not the JAR-OPS operators train according to this MPL concept. EWSD02's question is who will get the job? An MPL or CPL, both just having finished their training. And to make it complicated: what if the pilot has his CPL AND trained according to the MPL concept?
99,99% the last one has more changes. That is IF this last one hasn't been offered a job yet.
To correct it: MPL is not in the development cycle, it's developed already and the question is whether or not the JAR-OPS operators train according to this MPL concept. EWSD02's question is who will get the job? An MPL or CPL, both just having finished their training. And to make it complicated: what if the pilot has his CPL AND trained according to the MPL concept?
99,99% the last one has more changes. That is IF this last one hasn't been offered a job yet.
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SMJP,
I don't understand what you mean by a pilot who has a CPL, bui ttrained the MPL way, since MPL is an alternative license to CPL, not a new way of getting a CPL.
I didn't parse my words closely enough as I was writing in the context of FlyBe and FTE being the first UK MPL. I think I confused this thread for another where the originating post was about FlyBe's new MPL. You are correct in saying the MPL is developed already, but according to Flight International, FTE's syllabus for the first batch of FlyBe MPL cadets has not been approved by the UK CAA yet, so it seems to me it's still in "development." By that I mean specifically what aircraft and sims will be used and how many hours in each, plus the lesson plan for each flight. I'm sure the CAA wants to get it right and are probably taking a belts and braces approach to it.
It seems to me that each syllabus will need approval because the employing airline's SOPs and stamp are all over it. MPL includes a type rating and if the airline will be delivering this in-house as an integral part of the MPL syllabus, it needs approval by the relevant aviation authority. The FTO and Airline will seek this approval jointly in such a case. The second point is that nobody will train on MPL except pre-selected cadets, therefore, they won't be going head-to-head with a CPL holder for a job. They will already have one waiting for them.
As for as what happens to the MPL holders if they are made redundant before reaching 1,500 hours, or whatever it will take them to swap the MPL for an ATPL, well let's just say they will probably be royally screwed and I'd put my money on a ME/CPL/IR holder being more employable, or at least employable by more airlines.
I don't understand what you mean by a pilot who has a CPL, bui ttrained the MPL way, since MPL is an alternative license to CPL, not a new way of getting a CPL.
I didn't parse my words closely enough as I was writing in the context of FlyBe and FTE being the first UK MPL. I think I confused this thread for another where the originating post was about FlyBe's new MPL. You are correct in saying the MPL is developed already, but according to Flight International, FTE's syllabus for the first batch of FlyBe MPL cadets has not been approved by the UK CAA yet, so it seems to me it's still in "development." By that I mean specifically what aircraft and sims will be used and how many hours in each, plus the lesson plan for each flight. I'm sure the CAA wants to get it right and are probably taking a belts and braces approach to it.
It seems to me that each syllabus will need approval because the employing airline's SOPs and stamp are all over it. MPL includes a type rating and if the airline will be delivering this in-house as an integral part of the MPL syllabus, it needs approval by the relevant aviation authority. The FTO and Airline will seek this approval jointly in such a case. The second point is that nobody will train on MPL except pre-selected cadets, therefore, they won't be going head-to-head with a CPL holder for a job. They will already have one waiting for them.
As for as what happens to the MPL holders if they are made redundant before reaching 1,500 hours, or whatever it will take them to swap the MPL for an ATPL, well let's just say they will probably be royally screwed and I'd put my money on a ME/CPL/IR holder being more employable, or at least employable by more airlines.
Last edited by Adios; 20th Feb 2009 at 22:16.
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I think we all know that if the MPL becomes an accepted method of entry into the airlines (and although it is available and under trial, it is not yet in general acceptance) in a few years you will see the integrated courses being replaced my MPL courses. The training can easily be for generic airline ops rather than a specific one, much like many of the MCC courses.
We know that the MPL will be more attractive to those training providers who can afford the investment, but what I want to know is will it be better for the students, the airlines and ultimately the passengers sitting in the back. And would there be implications for general aviation? My questions are a little rhetorical, but I think these are the important ones.
We know that the MPL will be more attractive to those training providers who can afford the investment, but what I want to know is will it be better for the students, the airlines and ultimately the passengers sitting in the back. And would there be implications for general aviation? My questions are a little rhetorical, but I think these are the important ones.
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with thousand of guys ready with all the licences (cpl-ir atpl), well prepared with mcc and all,
why a company would hire an Mpl pilot???
it' s a nonsense for me now there are too many full pilots available
why a company would hire an Mpl pilot???
it' s a nonsense for me now there are too many full pilots available
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Wetstart,
I can think of a few reasons an airline would get involved with MPL. First, SMJP has already stated he's flown with some and he sees a significant difference in the quality of their skills. Second, new pilots are willing to work for less money than the experienced pilots probably will. Third, there is a significant amount of excess flight simulator capacity in Europe and those who invested many Millions in the sims would like to find a way to put that capacity to use in revenue generation through training. Many of these sims belong to airlines large enough to conduct all or most of their own training. Lufthansa comes to mind here.
My list is not exhaustive, but in light of the fact that two of the three reasons I can come up with for MPL happen to be economic, EWSD02's questions are the relevant ones. They won't be settled for most people until there are a lot more MPL pilots out there. Even then, the debate will rage on for years, just as the Modugated vs. Interbobular debate goes on ad nauseam.
I can think of a few reasons an airline would get involved with MPL. First, SMJP has already stated he's flown with some and he sees a significant difference in the quality of their skills. Second, new pilots are willing to work for less money than the experienced pilots probably will. Third, there is a significant amount of excess flight simulator capacity in Europe and those who invested many Millions in the sims would like to find a way to put that capacity to use in revenue generation through training. Many of these sims belong to airlines large enough to conduct all or most of their own training. Lufthansa comes to mind here.
My list is not exhaustive, but in light of the fact that two of the three reasons I can come up with for MPL happen to be economic, EWSD02's questions are the relevant ones. They won't be settled for most people until there are a lot more MPL pilots out there. Even then, the debate will rage on for years, just as the Modugated vs. Interbobular debate goes on ad nauseam.
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Originally Posted by Adios
First, SMJP has already stated he's flown with some and he sees a significant difference in the quality of their skills.
His English writing style and errors are very clearly the same as the poor English on his website. Including the use of the term "major aviation".
He's also started a topic on a Dutch forum frequented by many student pilots and youngsters looking into flight training, in the same fashion, pretending to be an 'innocent bystander' who is very interested in this school.
So far, there've been just a handful of MPL-pilots in the world (a grand total of 10, as far as I can count, 4 for Sterling who are now jobless and 6 by Alteon). So unless SMJP flew for Sterling or Xiamen or China Eastern, I'm very interested to find out where he flew with these guys. In an article on Flight, these Sterling MPL guys are in trouble, not necessarily because of their skills, but they probably have to get a full CPL/IR in order to apply with other airlines (good luck with that in these times).
Very, very dubious...
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Originally Posted by Adios
First, SMJP has already stated he's flown with some and he sees a significant difference in the quality of their skills. Second, new pilots are willing to work for less money than the experienced pilots probably will.
in a few years you will see the integrated courses being replaced my MPL courses. The training can easily be for generic airline ops rather than a specific one, much like many of the MCC courses.
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I agree with Groundloop, MPL is not going to replace fATPL for non-sponsored students. MPL will end up costing £80-90K because of the included Type Rating and Base Training. FTO's won't be able to sell this without a job attached in advance anymore than they can sell a bolt on Type Rating to an integrated graduate. Oxford and CTC are the only UK schools I know of that are both FTO and TRTO and as far as I know, neither of them has ever seen hordes of integrated graduates rush over to but a Type Rating without a job attached.
Regulatory issues aside, MPL is only going to be marketable when it includes an airline job offer up front. Those who think otherwise should send their CV to the TRTOs and ask for a job selling speculative Type Ratings, because that is what this opinion that MPL will replace fATPL really means.
Regulatory issues aside, MPL is only going to be marketable when it includes an airline job offer up front. Those who think otherwise should send their CV to the TRTOs and ask for a job selling speculative Type Ratings, because that is what this opinion that MPL will replace fATPL really means.
