Anybody got a job recently?

[stefair]

No, not really flyer 1971, you did not get lucky at all because you just bought yourself into the biz and consequently helped lower our working conditions. Fact. And that ain't too bright! Unfortunately, folks like you will keep paying for type ratings but the only way to get companies back on track is to not go along.

There are jobs out there but not many. But let's face it, even in good times not everyone gets a job, and most certainly not everyone a jet job right after training. And, there still are companies out there that do pay for your TR, and not only that there are companies out there which pay for your MCC on top.

Happy New Year to everyone and may 2009 turn out much better than presently predicted!

[Day_Dreamer]

Stefair
Are you a total wally or just plain stupid ?
Put into this forum the facts about lowering terms and conditions, that have been caused by SSTR's.
Totally wrong !! after 36 nearly 37 years in this profession its the accountants who have been lowering terms and conditions for many years before the advent of SSTR's.
Dont get on my case about the likes of Ryanair, and how they charge for uniforms ect, I have heard it all before and posted my thoughts on that subject.
Its people like you who expect the world to owe you a living for the minimalist input from you.
The "I've got a Licence I should be first to get a job" crowd need to learn the lessons of life.
Namely Accountants like SSTR's because the cost to the company is reduced and the risk to the company is minimised. if you fail you paid and there was no cost to them.
There will be no change to the SSTR market as people will always pay that extra to get their first foot on that rung.
Theflyer1971 has done nothing wrong, he has just taken advantage of the situation available as any sensible person might in this climate.
Taking RYR for example Pay for the first 500 hours €55.5 / hour to the pilot, totaling €27750 plus 300 hours at €75.5 / hour giving another €22650.
For 1 year of paid service income €50400 or £48932.
Not bad for a year one pilot, even after paying Medical, Uniform, Car Parking etc.
Remember CTC cadets only get £1000 per month plus flight pay for 6 months then maybe a full time job, these days probably not.
If you think T & C's are being eroded look at their deal !!!

MCC courses are a requirement to get the licence issued and to my knowledge there are no sponsorships for MCC courses in the UK.

Yes some companies pay the TR, but the cadet salary is usually significantly less than the full F/O rate.
For example £28K instead of £45K rising to full F/O salary in year 5.
Q. Who pays for the rating ? A. Ultimately the Cadet

Get a life son, and get real SSTR's are here to stay, and accountants will always bust your A... whenever they can make a buck for the company at you and my expense.
Airlines will not come to heel, with people refusing to pay the rating as there will always be someone willing to fork out. Thats Life !!!

[Raffe69]

Day Dreamer, good points, well made.

People need to wake up to the realities of life and the way this industry works.

I am currently working with a number of Captains who started in the early-mid 90's ALL paid for their first TR.

Life was better for them from then on, and they all now have at least 5 types on their licences, which they have not had to pay for.

However to get that foot into the industry they had to pay. SSTR is not new!

[captainyonder]

Just to add to my earlier post, I got my job on the condition of self funding a type rating. I'm on a full salary from day one at the company, not day one of flying, not after line training nor after six months. I am not bonded and I am as secure as is possible in my job at the moment and have a contract to fall back on. Yes, there is the possibility that this downturn might result in me being laid off, but if that were to happen I will still get a full redundancy package etc. In short, I have no regrets, sadly it's just the climate we live in these days. Things are changing, we just have to deal with it. And it is not wannabes who are erroding T & C's, it's always been this way, it's all just smoke and mirrors.

[loftustb]

We're all drifting off the point here. The point is that if you choose to buy a type rating, you ain't "lucky". If you get a job in the current climate without buying a type rating, then you're "lucky".

[ElitePilot]

I think that really depends which side of the fence your on...

To the CPL/IR just out of school who does a SSTR and gets a job straght away in the current climate I would consider myself lucky.

To the employed ATPL with over 500 time on jet type would most likely see that as unlucky.

To the passengers in the back if they knew the costs, time and effort to get into that right seat would probably see it as insane!

To get a job at the moment without doing a SSTR is a very rare occurrence but there are no guarantees whichever route you take. You just got to do all you can to make yourself markettable to the employer... Isn't that basic stuff?

[stefair]

loftusb,
Exactly. Thank you.

Day_Dreamer and Raffe69,
In answer to your first question, I am neither. What I said about MCC and TR is fact, however, not common practice in the UK. I am prepared to relocate anywhere if that gives me a reduction in risk. I do love aviation but I am also in this business to make a living as my folks are not wealthy I'm afraid... sorry.

You are totally wrong in saying that it is the accountants lowering T's and C's. Their job is to lower the costs, that's right, but it is also down to us, the employees, to say NO to what the industry is trying to force us into. Unfortunately, not everyone does say no and therefore there is no reason for them to stop that bad practice. The consequences of people doing SSTRs has been debated here more than enough; I know it's very hypothetical, as there will always be wannabes willing to sign up for SSTRs, but if people unanimously refused to go along companies would have no other choice than to pay. It has always been like that, the employer side tries reducing overheads and since training of flight crew takes the biggest chunk of a company's expenses in salaries they try to pass it on to the employee. That is, BTW, why there are unions around.

Now, you advice me to "get real" and "learn the lessons of life." Very amusing I must say lol since you don't know jack about me. Let's sum up some facts: In no other profession will people have to pay that type of money blown in aviation on training, yet you are telling me that I need to pay even more to minimize the risk for the company? lol I invested an awful lot of money, and thanks to making wise choices I managed to keep the costs reasonably low, to - should all other options fail - have the money available for paying for a TR. But that is the very very very last resort. Having said that, let me tell you what I expect: I expect the company to test me on my abilities THOROUGHLY to determine if I am worth the investment. That's the only way because it's the right way.

Next point: An Irish low cost carrier's hiring/paying practice. I appreciate - but stand to be corrected - that they ask their new FOs to pay for their TR and living expenses. After TR completion you are not contracted by them but by BC. In economic terms, you are outsourced. FOs do not receive any wage for their base and line training, and supervision. It is only after that that they pay a wage AND since you are not employed by the company they can lay you off rather easily, if needed, or give you unpaid leave. Day Dreamer, my dear friend, and Raffe69, telling me "to wake up to the realities of life and the way this industry works," please allow me to give you my two cents worth, that is just a joke. From a business point of view pretty smart though.

Lastly, I suppose I did not make my point clear enough which probably also causes some bad feelings around here against me. Ideally, I would like to see the company to pay for a TR in full, plus the MCC. However, I would agree to a bond scheme where the company puts out the money and one signs a contract to stay a few years. That would be a fairer share of risk between both parties, as in the past many people just took the rating and left after only a few months. That cannot be right either. What I am totally against is an employment situation where the company is not willing to take the slightest of all risks. But as long as people give in there will be no change.

Good luck to everyone.

[5 RINGS]

couldn't agree more Stefair...

BTW, I was on full salary from day one, TR paid, bonded for some time...and guess what I feel loyal to that company & will do my utmost to make it work...

wouldn't be the same story if I had to pay for my TR...

Finally, how many accountants are asked to bring their own PC & softwares at work nowadays???

[Raffe69]

Stefair,

I must reiterate my point, that SSTR's are not new. I was in no way stating that your comments were wrong, I just supported the points made by Day Dreamer and you have sound reasoning in your response.

However we can all say, we should not do this or that, we should stick together, we should hold out to get the companies to pay. It just will not happen anymore until we get to a situation that there is a dire shortage of pilots and companies realise they need to fund training again.

But will this happen. Unlikely! Because there are enough people who are prepared to self fund to move forward quicker.....if they are lucky to get a job and this has been happening for over 2 decades.

Finally, I just think we might be moving away from the point of this thread.

[portsharbourflyer]

Again, points I have made in the past, just because a company is offering a training bond doesn't mean the terms and conditions are necessarily good.

Stefair, I assume you are single with no family commitments because for most of the turboprop jobs out there that offer full "training bonds" the salary is not something that you can support a family on. It is the appalling bond arrangements with low salaries amoung the turboprop operators which are encouraging Self Sponsored type ratings on jets.

Five Rings, sounds as though you were very lucky to get a company offering a training bond and a decent salary, the two rarely co-exist and ideally that is how every job should be, but this is not an ideal world and I can only think of a handful of operators that offer such a deal.

Ryanair, Pilots working through Brookfields are "contract pilots" (HMRC may call them disguised employees but that is another matter) as such many of them are actually able to write off the expense of the rating against tax, also if routing the payments though a limited company then they may only be paying 19/20% tax, so dispite the insecurities of the deal, there are a few hidden advantages.

Remember everyones circumstances are different and every deal is different, not all SSTR are bad and not all training bonds are good.

Back to SSTR, I knew one guy that had self funded a BAE111 rating to get a job in his day, that shows how long self funded ratings have been around.