Flybe
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G-BFUN
A good point you have made at the end of your post thier about the MPL scheme being only accepted. No one has yet touched on this yet but the moment I saw the thread the exact same question popped in to my head.
The answer?? Well who knows?? It could be it could be not. Its a way I think of connecting the students more with the airline and possibly an aid to keeping them in for longer. It is a slight worry but hey ho.
Best of luck
A good point you have made at the end of your post thier about the MPL scheme being only accepted. No one has yet touched on this yet but the moment I saw the thread the exact same question popped in to my head.
The answer?? Well who knows?? It could be it could be not. Its a way I think of connecting the students more with the airline and possibly an aid to keeping them in for longer. It is a slight worry but hey ho.
Best of luck
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: England
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey
I know, the only thing that runs through my head is going through all the hard work to acheive your fATPL to know half way through it the new "in" thing all airlines are doing is recruiting new pilots via MPL schemes and not having a chance in hell in any airlineemployment!
Oh well I guess it is a "wait and see" game.
It would be interesting to get some replys on here from guys and gals near completing there mod courses or any people on inte courses at the moment and see what their instructors/ FTO's are saying to them at the moment on the whole job/ future job front, esp. FlyBE.
I know, the only thing that runs through my head is going through all the hard work to acheive your fATPL to know half way through it the new "in" thing all airlines are doing is recruiting new pilots via MPL schemes and not having a chance in hell in any airlineemployment!
Oh well I guess it is a "wait and see" game.
It would be interesting to get some replys on here from guys and gals near completing there mod courses or any people on inte courses at the moment and see what their instructors/ FTO's are saying to them at the moment on the whole job/ future job front, esp. FlyBE.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: London
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There has been a lot of debate regarding the MPL issue over last year or so. Recently, a Danish carrier reduced crew numbers. I don't know the full outcome but it was mentioned that the MPL guys were finding it hard to find employment outside due certain restrictions.
What could be a good solution is a possible "hybrid" of this.
What is the cost of training to MPL standard? There must be some cost savings for operators.
Therefore, why not utilise the pool (read ocean) of low hours pilots. They wouldn't need full MPL training since they have acquired CPL/IR already. Basic handling and awareness of navigation and instrument principles already exist.
The main cost would be the type rating and just getting the candidates up to speed with the SOPs. I may be overly simplistic here. However it seems a win win situation all round.
What could be a good solution is a possible "hybrid" of this.
What is the cost of training to MPL standard? There must be some cost savings for operators.
Therefore, why not utilise the pool (read ocean) of low hours pilots. They wouldn't need full MPL training since they have acquired CPL/IR already. Basic handling and awareness of navigation and instrument principles already exist.
The main cost would be the type rating and just getting the candidates up to speed with the SOPs. I may be overly simplistic here. However it seems a win win situation all round.
Last edited by boeingbus2002; 1st Oct 2008 at 13:05.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: England
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey
That is an interesting concept on the MPL scheme I havn't considered. Instead of airlines only employing from their own MPL schemes it would make perfect sense to employ someone who has done all the training that hasn't cost them a penny as a fATPL the way it is now.
Better yet, just contradicted my own thoughts because the airlines could get the cadets to pay for the whole MPL scheme in full with a job offer at the end. Would people be willing to do this though with the risk of if a job is not on offer at the end they would be less employable? I think ppl would still strongly consider it. Therefore there would be no need to take on new fATPL guys.
I wonder within the next few years the traditional fATPL route will be no more when it comes to airlines that take on low hours pilots like FlyBE.
That is an interesting concept on the MPL scheme I havn't considered. Instead of airlines only employing from their own MPL schemes it would make perfect sense to employ someone who has done all the training that hasn't cost them a penny as a fATPL the way it is now.
Better yet, just contradicted my own thoughts because the airlines could get the cadets to pay for the whole MPL scheme in full with a job offer at the end. Would people be willing to do this though with the risk of if a job is not on offer at the end they would be less employable? I think ppl would still strongly consider it. Therefore there would be no need to take on new fATPL guys.
I wonder within the next few years the traditional fATPL route will be no more when it comes to airlines that take on low hours pilots like FlyBE.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 49
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm actually not too "up" on the MPL, so stand to be corrected, but I believe a key component of MPL is that it requires an airline to "sponsor" (for that, actually read "have pre-offered employment") a student prior to them starting the course.
Therefore if we follow this logic and ask the question, does it mean the death knell for fATPL, then the answer would probably be "no" as it would require all airlines to accurately forecast the number of low hour pilots they need, would necessistate all who started finishing and would remove flexibility. If I'm right here, there will always be a need for airlines to pick up more pilots as and when required...and these additions would have to come from the fATPL route.
Therefore, I'd suggest that the more likely outcome is that airline "tagged" schemes such as FlyBE, Netjets, Citiflyer etc may become based around the MPL - hugely dependant on the individual employers and their view of MPL - but there will still be a huge [majority of low hours?] market for those who study the currently more established route of fATPL.
Like I say, I don't know too much about it, so stand to be corrected on this, but my tuppenceworth.
Therefore if we follow this logic and ask the question, does it mean the death knell for fATPL, then the answer would probably be "no" as it would require all airlines to accurately forecast the number of low hour pilots they need, would necessistate all who started finishing and would remove flexibility. If I'm right here, there will always be a need for airlines to pick up more pilots as and when required...and these additions would have to come from the fATPL route.
Therefore, I'd suggest that the more likely outcome is that airline "tagged" schemes such as FlyBE, Netjets, Citiflyer etc may become based around the MPL - hugely dependant on the individual employers and their view of MPL - but there will still be a huge [majority of low hours?] market for those who study the currently more established route of fATPL.
Like I say, I don't know too much about it, so stand to be corrected on this, but my tuppenceworth.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 46
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thing to consider is what happens if you get the MPL and don't get a job? Or you get laid off very soon after starting like the Sterling guys?
You are then left with considerable debt and a near worthless license.
With an MPL you rule out any chance of at least getting some experience elsewhere and a little money coming in should you choose to do some Instructing or Air Taxi, Aerial Photography or some such. Hell you can't even take a 152 up for a jolly!
You are then left with considerable debt and a near worthless license.
With an MPL you rule out any chance of at least getting some experience elsewhere and a little money coming in should you choose to do some Instructing or Air Taxi, Aerial Photography or some such. Hell you can't even take a 152 up for a jolly!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Castle
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clanger, you are correct. The MPL is a partnership between the FTO, the company and the individual. The FTO provides stage 1-3 of the training and the student pays. Stage 4 is paid by the company (and the student) bonded for that amount. I suppose you could call it a sponsor. The idea is to train people to work at the airline, not to turn people out with a single type MPL who would then need to try and find a job outside. Flybe would not have the time nor the resources to train individuals in that way.
It would not be Flybe's intention to recruit all it's talent through MPL but an opportunity to train preselected individuals in a similar vain to it's current schemes.
In no way would it be meant to replace but only compliment the current system.
Flybe currently bond (£13.5K) for a DHC 8 Q400 type rating. They would still pay for this bit under similar arrangements which would substantially reduce the costs of getting the MPL and therefore make the challenge of finding the money less of an obstacle. This in turn would allow the airline to have access to talent not previously available.
Flybe are one of the few players who put something back in to the industry at grass root level.
If for any reason an individual decided to leave an MPL scheme, they could continue to do the rest of the phase 4 training in the traditional way and gain an FATPL.
Flybe have made many 'firsts' in the industry and would not commit to something they did not intend to follow through. Having said that it is a (small) risk which would need to be considered in the current climate in the knowledge that a licence could be gained in the traditional way if the worst came to the worst.
A 'proper' licence was mentioned previously. Not all, but most airline pilots choose to fly for their day job only and therefore require nothing other than an MPL. While most/all current airline crew have a 'proper' licence now, only a very few make use of the the other privileges. Only a minor upgrade would be required to achieve SEP status etc although only on a private basis.
It would not be Flybe's intention to recruit all it's talent through MPL but an opportunity to train preselected individuals in a similar vain to it's current schemes.
In no way would it be meant to replace but only compliment the current system.
Flybe currently bond (£13.5K) for a DHC 8 Q400 type rating. They would still pay for this bit under similar arrangements which would substantially reduce the costs of getting the MPL and therefore make the challenge of finding the money less of an obstacle. This in turn would allow the airline to have access to talent not previously available.
Flybe are one of the few players who put something back in to the industry at grass root level.
If for any reason an individual decided to leave an MPL scheme, they could continue to do the rest of the phase 4 training in the traditional way and gain an FATPL.
Flybe have made many 'firsts' in the industry and would not commit to something they did not intend to follow through. Having said that it is a (small) risk which would need to be considered in the current climate in the knowledge that a licence could be gained in the traditional way if the worst came to the worst.
A 'proper' licence was mentioned previously. Not all, but most airline pilots choose to fly for their day job only and therefore require nothing other than an MPL. While most/all current airline crew have a 'proper' licence now, only a very few make use of the the other privileges. Only a minor upgrade would be required to achieve SEP status etc although only on a private basis.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: England
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grizzle
Can I ask why you don't think it would be in FlyBE's best interest to take on all MPL candidates?
I can see this argument with taking on very experienced Flying Instructors, or air-taxi work etc.
But when it comes to having a fATPL with min. hours either inte or mod route and an MPL Candidate... Surly they will chose the MPL all the time? What benefit does a self-sponsored fATPL candidate bring to the table?
Can I ask why you don't think it would be in FlyBE's best interest to take on all MPL candidates?
I can see this argument with taking on very experienced Flying Instructors, or air-taxi work etc.
But when it comes to having a fATPL with min. hours either inte or mod route and an MPL Candidate... Surly they will chose the MPL all the time? What benefit does a self-sponsored fATPL candidate bring to the table?
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Castle
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Simple - resources! both that of the FTO and the airline.
Flybe take many recruits from many places and it would be impossible to take all MPL. There needs to be a large gene pool in any airline with the mix of experience, expertise and talent. It may be that in the future MPL is the way to go but it is really in its infancy right now.
The MPL candidates will not be in competiton with the integrated or modular students. Like the MAPS schemes they will have a job before they start training - nice feeling!
Flybe take many recruits from many places and it would be impossible to take all MPL. There needs to be a large gene pool in any airline with the mix of experience, expertise and talent. It may be that in the future MPL is the way to go but it is really in its infancy right now.
The MPL candidates will not be in competiton with the integrated or modular students. Like the MAPS schemes they will have a job before they start training - nice feeling!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 49
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grizzle,
Thanks for the confirmation, pretty much as I thought!
GBFUN,
The major reason no airline would take all it's staff that way is because it would require them to be 100% accurate with their staff forecasting a year and a half in the future. This is because a pre-requisite of MPL is the pre-training agreement between the airline and the cadet...the airline must have 'offered' a job to the cadet before embarkation on the course. Most people that have anything to do with this game will tell you most airlines find it hard enough to predict staffing a week and a half into the future!
They would be relying on not only accurate forecasting, but nobody failing the course once they had been selected, nobody failing their medical, the industry staying 'as forecast' for the duration of the course - and you only have to look back twelve months to see how infeasible THAT is. There would have to be no delay in aircraft orders, no sudden growth that required a large influx at short notice....in short if they opted to ONLY take MPL pilots, any flexibility in A.N. Aircraft companys operating plan would be lost.
Hence, it is potentially a great method of training pilots, but the need for them to be tied means it is unlikely, IMHO, to replace fATPL entirely, or even the majority.
Thanks for the confirmation, pretty much as I thought!
GBFUN,
The major reason no airline would take all it's staff that way is because it would require them to be 100% accurate with their staff forecasting a year and a half in the future. This is because a pre-requisite of MPL is the pre-training agreement between the airline and the cadet...the airline must have 'offered' a job to the cadet before embarkation on the course. Most people that have anything to do with this game will tell you most airlines find it hard enough to predict staffing a week and a half into the future!
They would be relying on not only accurate forecasting, but nobody failing the course once they had been selected, nobody failing their medical, the industry staying 'as forecast' for the duration of the course - and you only have to look back twelve months to see how infeasible THAT is. There would have to be no delay in aircraft orders, no sudden growth that required a large influx at short notice....in short if they opted to ONLY take MPL pilots, any flexibility in A.N. Aircraft companys operating plan would be lost.
Hence, it is potentially a great method of training pilots, but the need for them to be tied means it is unlikely, IMHO, to replace fATPL entirely, or even the majority.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East of 26L
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not a Jet Snob. To be honest I would be more than happy flying around the UK/France in a beautiful Q400 than smallish my biz jet.
I fly Jets but that doesnt make me superior............................!!!!!!
I dont see transfering to a Q400 from a Jet a "Step Down".. Quite insulting to the boys n girls who work hard on them.
Id love to work for flybe. Be based anywhere too...
I position on them to work every week and have met a lot of the crew and I really think I would enjoy it more than where I am now.
Meh..
I fly Jets but that doesnt make me superior............................!!!!!!
I dont see transfering to a Q400 from a Jet a "Step Down".. Quite insulting to the boys n girls who work hard on them.
Id love to work for flybe. Be based anywhere too...
I position on them to work every week and have met a lot of the crew and I really think I would enjoy it more than where I am now.
Meh..
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Castle
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clanger - bang on 
G-BFUN
Each to their own
Flybe are very sure. They have ordered 60 Q400s, are operating 40 now and are in receipt of a new one every 5-6 weeks. Pity to miss out perhaps.
Think about the worry (as you get towards the IR stage of training) as to how you are going to make the loan repayments (if you have one). Tends to focus the mind, but perhaps not on the priority. The idea of having the job before you start must be worth a fortune in itself. I can not imagine Flybe signing up to a contract costing them £13.5K if they were not sure if you would be needed or not - but then there was Sterling - true, but a totally different business model. Have you seen Flybe's latest results in the present challenging climate? A fair bet I would say.
Of course the FATPL route is a good choice too but it would be foolish to turn your nose up if an opportunity presented itself to have a job, pay less for the training and be worry free. You never know, Flybe might even pay you while you are doing it
G-BFUN
Like the MAPS schemes they will have a job before they start training - nice feeling!
One year they are ordering new a/c the next there not sure! I'll enter the fATPL training next year with that worry off my mind!
Flybe are very sure. They have ordered 60 Q400s, are operating 40 now and are in receipt of a new one every 5-6 weeks. Pity to miss out perhaps.
Think about the worry (as you get towards the IR stage of training) as to how you are going to make the loan repayments (if you have one). Tends to focus the mind, but perhaps not on the priority. The idea of having the job before you start must be worth a fortune in itself. I can not imagine Flybe signing up to a contract costing them £13.5K if they were not sure if you would be needed or not - but then there was Sterling - true, but a totally different business model. Have you seen Flybe's latest results in the present challenging climate? A fair bet I would say.
Of course the FATPL route is a good choice too but it would be foolish to turn your nose up if an opportunity presented itself to have a job, pay less for the training and be worry free. You never know, Flybe might even pay you while you are doing it
Last edited by Grizzle; 2nd Oct 2008 at 07:40.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on the dark side of the moon!
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Don't shoot 5 RINGS
He's asking a legitimate question to the original poster who has jet time, he's just asking if he is prepared to "step down" to TPs because the guy is a jet jockey and we all know about Jet Drivers and their egos don't we?
5 RINGS drives a TP so lay off him, can't anone post on this forum any more without people jumping on top somebody at every given opportunity? You really need to get a life
Unquote.
can't put it better myself.....as a Q400 driver....that was a test question, as many jet guys would think so, and that would be a top question in an interview.
Don't shoot 5 RINGS
He's asking a legitimate question to the original poster who has jet time, he's just asking if he is prepared to "step down" to TPs because the guy is a jet jockey and we all know about Jet Drivers and their egos don't we?
5 RINGS drives a TP so lay off him, can't anone post on this forum any more without people jumping on top somebody at every given opportunity? You really need to get a life
Unquote.
can't put it better myself.....as a Q400 driver....that was a test question, as many jet guys would think so, and that would be a top question in an interview.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: England
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Grizzle
Thanks for the post, but I'm slightly confused because you mentioned that it would only be in FlyBE's best interest to hire MPL to supplement their employment needs and then the last post you submitted was pretty much saying they would only start MPL's if they needed the staff and FlyBE pretty much know how much staff they need.
If that is the case, surly you must agree with me that as a fresh low hours pilot either inte or mod route would not stand a chance if FlyBE have put "X" amount of ppl on their own MPL course. As you mentioned FlyBE know how much staff they need to recruit this would make it near enough impossible to get a job with them as a low hours guy wouldn't it?
Not trying to dig fault with your posts, but just very interested at what you think, as your posts are very detailed and I feel you have lots of informaiton on this topic.
Thanks for the post, but I'm slightly confused because you mentioned that it would only be in FlyBE's best interest to hire MPL to supplement their employment needs and then the last post you submitted was pretty much saying they would only start MPL's if they needed the staff and FlyBE pretty much know how much staff they need.
If that is the case, surly you must agree with me that as a fresh low hours pilot either inte or mod route would not stand a chance if FlyBE have put "X" amount of ppl on their own MPL course. As you mentioned FlyBE know how much staff they need to recruit this would make it near enough impossible to get a job with them as a low hours guy wouldn't it?
Not trying to dig fault with your posts, but just very interested at what you think, as your posts are very detailed and I feel you have lots of informaiton on this topic.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Castle
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G BFUN
Sorry if I have confused you, it wasn't my intention and I know your not having a dig .
Every airline has an idea of its pilot requirement but cannot predict it exactly. No airline would put all of it's eggs in one basket either.
For that reason alone Flybe will probably start x number of students in their current schemes, x number MPL and take x number of external FATPL entries, as at present, to fulfill their requirement. This means that will most likely have positions for all of those in which they have made an investment and hopefully positions for others too.
If they planned to do all MPL and the training school went bust then.......what next?
Flybe appear to have a policy of extracting their recruits from all across the board and I would imagine they will continue to do so.
Like it or not, pre selected integrated students, who are a known quantity, are less of a training risk - but this has been discussed elsewhere.
Sorry if I have confused you, it wasn't my intention
and I know your not having a dig .Every airline has an idea of its pilot requirement but cannot predict it exactly. No airline would put all of it's eggs in one basket either.
For that reason alone Flybe will probably start x number of students in their current schemes, x number MPL and take x number of external FATPL entries, as at present, to fulfill their requirement. This means that will most likely have positions for all of those in which they have made an investment and hopefully positions for others too.
If they planned to do all MPL and the training school went bust then.......what next?
Flybe appear to have a policy of extracting their recruits from all across the board and I would imagine they will continue to do so.
Like it or not, pre selected integrated students, who are a known quantity, are less of a training risk - but this has been discussed elsewhere.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: ireland
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fly the Q-400 and it a fantastic airplane. Cockpit is more advanced than most other jets out there (Head Up Display is an option in this aircraft). The thing can "turn on a dime" and TAS is often 360 or more (Thats fast for a turbo-prop). While you can't compare it to a 737 NG its better than a barbie-jet anyday of the week!!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a neat aeroplane. A bit flimsy feeling perhaps with how it's finished out (trim etc) but great fun to be on. It's bloody fast for a TP. Also a bit of a cheeky little dancer to land so it provides hours of fun during a winters day flying into Windy Leeds or a Snowy Glasgow.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Mostly Harmless
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, the application form's in. A couple of questions for the guys in flyBE please.
How long is it on average between submitting an application and being contacted for selection? I realise this will vary with circumstances and requirements.
Is the EDI base full for DE captains on the Q400?
All the best
BB
How long is it on average between submitting an application and being contacted for selection? I realise this will vary with circumstances and requirements.
Is the EDI base full for DE captains on the Q400?
All the best
BB