The Reality of OAA's Employment Statistics
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Oxford - my experience
FWIW I did the Oxford APP and have no regrets or beef with them - although I would say a few of the flight instructors are less helpful than others.
In terms of jobs - I ended up in Flybe and have OATS recommendation to thank for it. Sure the money isn't the best but I was paid during type rating, the company hired cars and paid hotels and meals and in year one my gross annual was over £28k including around £4k flight pay. Year 2 I expect to top £32k so in fairness that's not too bad in my view with no bond to repay unless I leave within 3 years.
In terms of fellow course colleagues:
2 went to XL, 3 of us ended up at BA Connect/Flybe, one got Thomas Cook 757, one did GECAT and got Easy I think and a couple of guys were from a middle East air force so irrelevant. Nobody from the 8 or 9 of us is unemployed.
As a 35 year old mid life career changer OATS made a big difference. When I applied for jobs as a low hours nobody, I didn't get a single first interview from around 50 applications - not one!! (And this was with first time passes all subjects/tests, 87% average and having done the APP course - plus having spent around ten years in airline management!) When I spoke with Aer Arann they said they had 800 applications for 2 vacancies!! I don't mind admitting I probably only got the interview at Flybe because of OATS, but I got the job on my own merits - either way it was worth the extra cost for my particular circumstances i.e. older and thus less attractive to airlines. If I was young free and single I'd probably go one stop modular and be happy spending a few years instructing or flying aerial photography.
Whatever you choose, I wish you all luck, when you get there it's a great job though certainly in the low cost arena hard work and hard on family life.
Desk-pilot
In terms of jobs - I ended up in Flybe and have OATS recommendation to thank for it. Sure the money isn't the best but I was paid during type rating, the company hired cars and paid hotels and meals and in year one my gross annual was over £28k including around £4k flight pay. Year 2 I expect to top £32k so in fairness that's not too bad in my view with no bond to repay unless I leave within 3 years.
In terms of fellow course colleagues:
2 went to XL, 3 of us ended up at BA Connect/Flybe, one got Thomas Cook 757, one did GECAT and got Easy I think and a couple of guys were from a middle East air force so irrelevant. Nobody from the 8 or 9 of us is unemployed.
As a 35 year old mid life career changer OATS made a big difference. When I applied for jobs as a low hours nobody, I didn't get a single first interview from around 50 applications - not one!! (And this was with first time passes all subjects/tests, 87% average and having done the APP course - plus having spent around ten years in airline management!) When I spoke with Aer Arann they said they had 800 applications for 2 vacancies!! I don't mind admitting I probably only got the interview at Flybe because of OATS, but I got the job on my own merits - either way it was worth the extra cost for my particular circumstances i.e. older and thus less attractive to airlines. If I was young free and single I'd probably go one stop modular and be happy spending a few years instructing or flying aerial photography.
Whatever you choose, I wish you all luck, when you get there it's a great job though certainly in the low cost arena hard work and hard on family life.
Desk-pilot
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For what it is worth, the nearly 3-1/2 years worth of jobs listed on OAA's website currently show 706 jobs with 108 to Ryanair, which is 15.3%. Clearly it is skewing higher right now, but as the last poster seems to indicate, he is grateful for any first job and I doubt that his attitude towards this is vastly different than most wannabes. Not everyone is miserable about Ryanair: many are quite happy there. If you stay 3-5 years, you will more than recoup the cost of the TR, especially after getting command, so the main issue/problem is whether or not you planned adequately from the beginning for an SSTR.
£20K for an SSTR is a large amount to raise, especially after ATPL training and Ryanair is not alone in abdicating responsibility for funding their crew training. Yet in the grand scheme of a career as an airline pilot where the lifetime earning potential can approach £3-4 Million, it seems like a no brainer to self fund if you can and if you must to get on the first rung of the ladder. Quite a few graduates from numerous FTOs have voted for this proposition by doing just this.
It is fair to take issue with OAA if they promise jobs and more so if they promise jobs with airline funded TRs, but slagging them because Ryanair has an affinity for their graduates seems a bit odd to me.
£20K for an SSTR is a large amount to raise, especially after ATPL training and Ryanair is not alone in abdicating responsibility for funding their crew training. Yet in the grand scheme of a career as an airline pilot where the lifetime earning potential can approach £3-4 Million, it seems like a no brainer to self fund if you can and if you must to get on the first rung of the ladder. Quite a few graduates from numerous FTOs have voted for this proposition by doing just this.
It is fair to take issue with OAA if they promise jobs and more so if they promise jobs with airline funded TRs, but slagging them because Ryanair has an affinity for their graduates seems a bit odd to me.
Last edited by Adios; 15th Jun 2008 at 10:20.
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what a pointless thread.
Sounds like an ex-oxford student still looking for employment.
oh, and forking out £25,000 for a TR is not being shafted by O'Leary. In the long run its a great investment. Not many jobs going at the moment, so its life. get on with it.
Sounds like an ex-oxford student still looking for employment.
oh, and forking out £25,000 for a TR is not being shafted by O'Leary. In the long run its a great investment. Not many jobs going at the moment, so its life. get on with it.
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After over 36 years in this industry, and fortunately several company paid type ratings, I have found the current trend towards SSTR's disturbing, only because of the cost to a recently qualified student.
Research into the training standards have revealed a vast range of training differences, mostly from companies not training for a specific airline.
Care should be taken in selecting a training provider, and should there be no prospect of a job after training then DONT do the rating upon speculation.
OAA has been very successful over 40 years of training and its their reputation for Low Risk and High Quality Pilots that attracts the airlines and the students.
Obtaining a job with Ryanair after training, can by no means be described as the Low End option, their training system can only be described as first class and highly professional.
Many have said they take anyone who can pay, but the statistics show that only 40% of applicants who pass through selection are good enough to be offered courses.
The courses 263 to 269 have just graduated from OAA and 60% of all those pilots are employed, 263 to 265 have a 90% placement rate, mostly with Flybe and Ryanair.
I am told by those who know that the Guys and Girls see these airlines as the Oasis in a sea of oily waters, both are still recruiting and plan to continue.
There are many who are prepared to pay for their ratings, waiting in the wings, and all who have read comments on here that they should feel degraded for joining Ryanair would love to meet MM and put him straight.
OAA stats are a guide to where students have gone, only from APP courses and there are several Modular / Waypoint students not included in these stats who are gainfully employed dare I say it also in Ryanair and other SSTR schemes.
Research into the training standards have revealed a vast range of training differences, mostly from companies not training for a specific airline.
Care should be taken in selecting a training provider, and should there be no prospect of a job after training then DONT do the rating upon speculation.
OAA has been very successful over 40 years of training and its their reputation for Low Risk and High Quality Pilots that attracts the airlines and the students.
Obtaining a job with Ryanair after training, can by no means be described as the Low End option, their training system can only be described as first class and highly professional.
Many have said they take anyone who can pay, but the statistics show that only 40% of applicants who pass through selection are good enough to be offered courses.
The courses 263 to 269 have just graduated from OAA and 60% of all those pilots are employed, 263 to 265 have a 90% placement rate, mostly with Flybe and Ryanair.
I am told by those who know that the Guys and Girls see these airlines as the Oasis in a sea of oily waters, both are still recruiting and plan to continue.
There are many who are prepared to pay for their ratings, waiting in the wings, and all who have read comments on here that they should feel degraded for joining Ryanair would love to meet MM and put him straight.
OAA stats are a guide to where students have gone, only from APP courses and there are several Modular / Waypoint students not included in these stats who are gainfully employed dare I say it also in Ryanair and other SSTR schemes.
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According to the link below, AP263-269 would have started Jun-Nov 2006 and with a 16 month course would have completed between Oct 2007 through Mar 2009, though they probably spread out a bit with the UK winter weather being what it is.
http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewfo...ays=0&start=50
If Daydreamer's percentage is correct that's 90% placement of the first three courses in 6-9 months or even less if they finished later than I am guessing.
http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewfo...ays=0&start=50
If Daydreamer's percentage is correct that's 90% placement of the first three courses in 6-9 months or even less if they finished later than I am guessing.
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Placements for 263-265 who completed their courses mostly on time varied from one month after finishing to five months, but 90% of those guys and girls have jobs, most are on courses, or have finished base training, some are now online with BA, Flybe and Ryanair, Air Southwest and others.
Source of Info, were the ex students themselves at their Graduation ball on Saturday night, where I met many of the graduates.
Of those not yet offered positions most have an interview within the next month.
Source of Info, were the ex students themselves at their Graduation ball on Saturday night, where I met many of the graduates.
Of those not yet offered positions most have an interview within the next month.
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OAA stats are a guide to where students have gone, only from APP courses and there are several Modular / Waypoint students not included in these stats who are gainfully employed dare I say it also in Ryanair and other SSTR schemes.
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SkyRocket10 is correct. OAA even say so themselves here: http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?t=4512
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What sort of role are you expecting OAA to do in getting you a job? I don't really understand this thread, 104 people employed and the majority of you just seem to be putting a negative slant on that?
What Oxford do to help you gain employment is help you build your CV and you can also get your CV's sent through Oxford rather than sending it on your own, or what alot of people do is wait for the airline seminars and hand their CV's directly to the recruitment managers etc of Ryanair, BA or whatever personally.
People will go wherever they can get a job not many people straight out can afford to be picky with which airline they goto so they will go with whoever they can, a couple of years ago alot of OAA students went to BA but now BA probably aren't recruiting as much.
Thread seems pretty pointless
What Oxford do to help you gain employment is help you build your CV and you can also get your CV's sent through Oxford rather than sending it on your own, or what alot of people do is wait for the airline seminars and hand their CV's directly to the recruitment managers etc of Ryanair, BA or whatever personally.
People will go wherever they can get a job not many people straight out can afford to be picky with which airline they goto so they will go with whoever they can, a couple of years ago alot of OAA students went to BA but now BA probably aren't recruiting as much.
Thread seems pretty pointless
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Do people actually fail the Oxford aptitude tests? Come off it.
I'm no aptitude wizz but the Oxford tests were a joke compared to the GAPAN/RAF tests or even CTC's for that matter.
I'm no aptitude wizz but the Oxford tests were a joke compared to the GAPAN/RAF tests or even CTC's for that matter.
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I personally think it's all bull
t about where you do your training. I think if you are dedicated to your craft ie. Pass your ATPLs first time with a good average pass mark, pass your flight tests first time or second time, do your research into the airline you want to join I mean really do your home work and not just the usual "thes are your routes this is what you fly ets ."and really think hard about what you have to offer different from the other 200 people interviewed then thats what matters. I think airlines are after commitment and some loyalty not just I want a job and and then whore your trade about.
You see it on here all the time were's the jet jobs blah blah blah..... I am sorry when you qualify thats when the hard work starts in my opinion.
will now step off my soap box and wait for the abuse to cum my way
.
t about where you do your training. I think if you are dedicated to your craft ie. Pass your ATPLs first time with a good average pass mark, pass your flight tests first time or second time, do your research into the airline you want to join I mean really do your home work and not just the usual "thes are your routes this is what you fly ets ."and really think hard about what you have to offer different from the other 200 people interviewed then thats what matters. I think airlines are after commitment and some loyalty not just I want a job and and then whore your trade about.You see it on here all the time were's the jet jobs blah blah blah..... I am sorry when you qualify thats when the hard work starts in my opinion.
will now step off my soap box and wait for the abuse to cum my way
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Acepilot,
Interviewing 200 people would be bloody hard work. I suspect there's more like a 2 to 1 ratio; 2 interviewed per 1 vacancy. Winning the interview is not the hardest part, getting one in the first place is the hard part. Getting 2 is even harder, but statistically that is probably the minimum you need to get one offer if your skills are up to scratch in accordance with your hard graft plans because everyone else's probably are too.
Having your FTO move you to the top of the CV heap is not to be frowned upon or taken too lightly. It might not be what does the trick for everyone, but don't underestimate the value of it or turn down any help from anywhere.
Interviewing 200 people would be bloody hard work. I suspect there's more like a 2 to 1 ratio; 2 interviewed per 1 vacancy. Winning the interview is not the hardest part, getting one in the first place is the hard part. Getting 2 is even harder, but statistically that is probably the minimum you need to get one offer if your skills are up to scratch in accordance with your hard graft plans because everyone else's probably are too.
Having your FTO move you to the top of the CV heap is not to be frowned upon or taken too lightly. It might not be what does the trick for everyone, but don't underestimate the value of it or turn down any help from anywhere.
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For some reason, people seem to think that OAA - through charging higher prices than a modular - are raking it in. I suggest those people refer to the accounts of the companies, who are operating a profit margins which do not suggest "raking it in" by any means.
While this has clearly become a mod v int debate again, it only goes to show the ignorance each camp of the other's mode of training, and most of that mentioned seems totally removed from Flight Ops' recruitment requirements...
I might also point out that the logical extension of "aptitude tests don't matter" is simply that "performance on a sim assessment is not an indicator of ability to handle a real situation". I think you can see where the BS sits.
nmcpilot - BA are hiring a lot. Currently taking a number of CTC cadets, some FTE cadets, and very few from OAT. I know where I would put my money...
While this has clearly become a mod v int debate again, it only goes to show the ignorance each camp of the other's mode of training, and most of that mentioned seems totally removed from Flight Ops' recruitment requirements...
I might also point out that the logical extension of "aptitude tests don't matter" is simply that "performance on a sim assessment is not an indicator of ability to handle a real situation". I think you can see where the BS sits.
nmcpilot - BA are hiring a lot. Currently taking a number of CTC cadets, some FTE cadets, and very few from OAT. I know where I would put my money...
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I think BA are hiring more OAA graduates than their report lets on. They used to count them as soon as BA slated them for a JOC. They changed accounting method this year and only put them in the report when they get their permanent contract. See here: http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?t=4353
There's no way of telling how many are waiting to start a BA JOC or currently on one, but it is probably more than zero. This will most likely deflate the reported number of OAA graduates going to BA for the whole year.
There's no way of telling how many are waiting to start a BA JOC or currently on one, but it is probably more than zero. This will most likely deflate the reported number of OAA graduates going to BA for the whole year.
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nmcpilot - BA are hiring a lot. Currently taking a number of CTC cadets, some FTE cadets, and very few from OAT. I know where I would put my money...
Today there are alot more students from CTC joining BA as SSPs (after BA first considered taking students from CTC in 2005) and I've not heard of anyone from Cabair get a job at BA for at least a year.
Out of the 5 BA JOC courses which have been in 2008 so far; 26 SSPs joined BA of which x14 OAA, x9 CTC and x3 FTE. That makes the share OAA 55%, CTC 35% and FTE 10%.
The bottom line is that if you meet the BA standard you get in. It doesnt really matter which of those schools you've come from. The thing to point out here is that not everyone from FTE or CTC get put forward to BA for selection which is the major difference to OAA; All 24 students of a course do get put forward to BA, of which on average 85% make it to cranebank for selection. Its more an 'economies of scale' because on a SSP selection week (24 candidates) at Cranebank, typically 75% OAA, 15% CTC and 10% FTE. Therefore as the majority of candidates are from OAA you'd expect OAA students to make up the majority of BA cadets!
I think BA are hiring more OAA graduates than their report lets on
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Flashdance,
What I meant is that OAA's report does not yet include some of their grads who might have been hired so far this year by BA because OAA won't add them to the report until they finish the JOC. While it is certainly possible there are no OAA grads on a BA JOC as of this posting, I suspect there are a few on it right now either at CTC or FTE, which are the two places BA use for the JOC.
The effect of the accounting change will be a deflated number that won't go away until 2009.
What I meant is that OAA's report does not yet include some of their grads who might have been hired so far this year by BA because OAA won't add them to the report until they finish the JOC. While it is certainly possible there are no OAA grads on a BA JOC as of this posting, I suspect there are a few on it right now either at CTC or FTE, which are the two places BA use for the JOC.
The effect of the accounting change will be a deflated number that won't go away until 2009.
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Hi Adios, just to make this clear; SSPs dont get 'hired' until they finish the JOC and are offered a contract of employment. There is no job offer during JOC. There have been candidates that have NOT passed the JOC. The whole selection process takes months and months, so to wait 4 weeks until a grad completes JOC and gets an actual job offer doesnt really make any difference to the OAA stats.
To be pedantic then yes; If the students who got offered a place in December 2007 on the January 2008 JOC were counted in the 2007 Stats list then this years number would be slightly less, to the tune of 3 students!
The facts are that this year, so far 14 grads from OAA have signed employment contracts with BA. Therefore if the OAA stats are uptodate they too would read 14!
Also, BA havent used FTE for the JOC for at least a year
The effect of the accounting change will be a deflated number that won't go away until 2009.
The facts are that this year, so far 14 grads from OAA have signed employment contracts with BA. Therefore if the OAA stats are uptodate they too would read 14!
Also, BA havent used FTE for the JOC for at least a year
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Flashdance,
I think we are both in agreement on when OAA count them now. They used to count them when they were offered JOC. Now they count them when they get a job offer after JOC. To be truly pedantic, I should have stated that, in previous years, OAA's report over-inflated the BA numbers due to an optimistic accounting procedure!
I think we are both in agreement on when OAA count them now. They used to count them when they were offered JOC. Now they count them when they get a job offer after JOC. To be truly pedantic, I should have stated that, in previous years, OAA's report over-inflated the BA numbers due to an optimistic accounting procedure!
