OAA - May Employment
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OAA - May Employment
Found the following on the OAA forum:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...85#post4163185
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...85#post4163185
With the recent slate of discouraging industry news, I think it appropriate to highlight some good news. 23 OAA graduates found employment in May and 3 are with airlines that have not hired from us over the previous few years, Amsterdam Airlines, Afriqiyah Airways and Cityjet.
These have been added to our web report, but here is May's breakdown:
3 - British Airways
4 - Ryanair
1 - Air Southwest
8 - FlyBe
4 - KLM
1 - Cityjet
1 - Amsterdam Airlines
1 - Afriqiyah Airways
That is 99 for the year so far, which means we are keeping pace with last year.
These have been added to our web report, but here is May's breakdown:
3 - British Airways
4 - Ryanair
1 - Air Southwest
8 - FlyBe
4 - KLM
1 - Cityjet
1 - Amsterdam Airlines
1 - Afriqiyah Airways
That is 99 for the year so far, which means we are keeping pace with last year.
3 students who went to KLM were from my course. They were EPST students, and EPST set them up with KLM bridge course. Two of them are going on to the 747 and one of them has got the 777.
So 3 went to some foreign airlines that would require a foreign language.
4 went to Ryanair who also take modular students (£45k Frzn ATPL) as long as they also have the ability to pay for their type ratings and won't mind spending all winter on stby as they ground half their fleet.
Flybe are recruiting so thats good news and BA will continue to take a trickle. I wonder if the lucky guy who got into Air Southwest has some connection?
The elephant in the room is: If 23 guys got jobs in May 2008 how many actually signed up to the course in May 2007?
If it was 23 then marvelous. If it was 60 then it isn't. And anyway - its May 2009 that you need to be thinking about..
WWW
4 went to Ryanair who also take modular students (£45k Frzn ATPL) as long as they also have the ability to pay for their type ratings and won't mind spending all winter on stby as they ground half their fleet.
Flybe are recruiting so thats good news and BA will continue to take a trickle. I wonder if the lucky guy who got into Air Southwest has some connection?
The elephant in the room is: If 23 guys got jobs in May 2008 how many actually signed up to the course in May 2007?
If it was 23 then marvelous. If it was 60 then it isn't. And anyway - its May 2009 that you need to be thinking about..
WWW
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I wonder if the lucky guy who got into Air Southwest has some connection?
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Over 40% of OAA cadets have went to Ryanair this year. Not sure what percentage of these are integrated, but Im willing to bet the vast majority (well everyone on my TR course at CAE ex Oxford has been integrated). Thats a debt of well over 100K each. I don´t know how they suffer it, especially when I let them know that my initial training cost 30K less!! Plus I am also informed that OAA employment stats relate to cadets who have secured employment this year, and takes no account of what year they finished their course.
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So 3 went to some foreign airlines that would require a foreign language.
4 went to Ryanair who also take modular students (£45k Frzn ATPL) as long as they also have the ability to pay for their type ratings and won't mind spending all winter on stby as they ground half their fleet.
Flybe are recruiting so thats good news and BA will continue to take a trickle. I wonder if the lucky guy who got into Air Southwest has some connection?
The elephant in the room is: If 23 guys got jobs in May 2008 how many actually signed up to the course in May 2007?
If it was 23 then marvelous. If it was 60 then it isn't. And anyway - its May 2009 that you need to be thinking about..
WWW
4 went to Ryanair who also take modular students (£45k Frzn ATPL) as long as they also have the ability to pay for their type ratings and won't mind spending all winter on stby as they ground half their fleet.
Flybe are recruiting so thats good news and BA will continue to take a trickle. I wonder if the lucky guy who got into Air Southwest has some connection?
The elephant in the room is: If 23 guys got jobs in May 2008 how many actually signed up to the course in May 2007?
If it was 23 then marvelous. If it was 60 then it isn't. And anyway - its May 2009 that you need to be thinking about..
WWW
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I would love to know the patter from the marketing team at OAA at the present time. It is without doubt a good marketing machine, but what are the answers to some of the more probing questions, keeping in mind the current economic climate. Or does anyone challenge them before handing over 75K +?
Mine would be,
1. Why OAA, if the majority of your cadets go to FR? My mate went modular, saved xyz, attended an FR open day and got an assessment. Surely that´s all I need to do?
2. How long will it typically take for me to gain employment when I leave OAA? I hear your employment stats relate to students who have gained employment without making reference to when they completed training at OAA? Also, what do I have to do for you to recommend me to an airline? Surely paying an extra 30K plus over the cost of a modular course gives me the chance of a job .... or does it?
3. You advertise Airline Schemes quite heavily. Why, out of the 5 companies that you claim you association with, only 2 have recruited from OAA this year? Whats that about?
4. If we do our initial training in the USA, where the currency is quite weak and the price of fuel is considerably cheaper than in Europe, why is the cost of this course so much higher?
5. You have a lot of non UK citizens at Oxford. Some of these people gain employment with various airlines back home i.e KLM, Transavia, Air Asia etc. Surely I would not get a chance of employment with these airlines. I am uncertain then of what percentage of UK or Irish national actually gain employment after leaving OAA.
IMO people should, and maybe are, asking these questions when they visit OAA and get all the ´spin.´I am not slating the school, it is regarded as one of the top FTO´s in the world today. I just think in today´s environment it is no longer a viable option to those people who a required to self-fund. And by self-fund, I MEAN self fund.
Mine would be,
1. Why OAA, if the majority of your cadets go to FR? My mate went modular, saved xyz, attended an FR open day and got an assessment. Surely that´s all I need to do?
2. How long will it typically take for me to gain employment when I leave OAA? I hear your employment stats relate to students who have gained employment without making reference to when they completed training at OAA? Also, what do I have to do for you to recommend me to an airline? Surely paying an extra 30K plus over the cost of a modular course gives me the chance of a job .... or does it?
3. You advertise Airline Schemes quite heavily. Why, out of the 5 companies that you claim you association with, only 2 have recruited from OAA this year? Whats that about?
4. If we do our initial training in the USA, where the currency is quite weak and the price of fuel is considerably cheaper than in Europe, why is the cost of this course so much higher?
5. You have a lot of non UK citizens at Oxford. Some of these people gain employment with various airlines back home i.e KLM, Transavia, Air Asia etc. Surely I would not get a chance of employment with these airlines. I am uncertain then of what percentage of UK or Irish national actually gain employment after leaving OAA.
IMO people should, and maybe are, asking these questions when they visit OAA and get all the ´spin.´I am not slating the school, it is regarded as one of the top FTO´s in the world today. I just think in today´s environment it is no longer a viable option to those people who a required to self-fund. And by self-fund, I MEAN self fund.
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but what oxford seem to be very good at is not finding any graduates jobs....and I graduated from there sometime ago and have recieved all the emails over the last 2 years or so from the careers department and not one email has ever had a credible email saying XXX Airline has contacted us for Flight Crew if your interested in being put forward for this Airline Job as you have been Airline Trained then send your details for referral. I was on a Fully Intergrated course....but what Oxford are very good at is wanting to know where you end up off your OWN BAT once leaving Oxford so then they can add this to there list of Airlines they pretend they themselves have supplied Pilots 2 which makes it look like a great place to go for training....they havent directly supplied all those pilots to those listed Airlines those guys and girls have done the hard work in securing the jobs themselves then Oxford have done the cheap trick of saying ooohh look we supplied another 4 Pilots to XXX Airline...if I disclosed to OAT the Airline I ended up at then i`m sure their name would be added to their list but as I never gave them the info then they were never able to use my success as their own Propoganda....they are a training Provider and they will train you to a good standard for your F/ATPL but they are no job finder like they pretend to be...
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If you don't get a job then don't blame your trainer, blame yourself. It is after all students themselves that CHOOSE to go to these schools. The point about why not going modular and saving all the money? Well... If your aspiration is Ryanair than thats great. For the people who aim higher than that (preparing to get flamed) then Integrated looks like a better choice.
To say Oxford aren't good at finding jobs for grads... Well, if that is your attitude then I am pleased you don't have one. A large amount of people train every year and expect a job straight away etc. If you aren't made of the right stuff then p*** off. Stop complaining about training companies and grow up, grow some balls and look for a job yourself. To those who go to schools like Oxford and get the best jobs (I.E. KLM or BA etc) then well done. To those of you who go to schools like Oxford and get good jobs (like ALMOST any other airline that exists) well done.
To those of you who complain that Oxford haven't found you a job; take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you are actually what airlines are after. If you were determined enough you wouldn't be on Pprune but instead you would be in airlines offices banging on doors and phoning Chief Pilots. Rant over.
To say Oxford aren't good at finding jobs for grads... Well, if that is your attitude then I am pleased you don't have one. A large amount of people train every year and expect a job straight away etc. If you aren't made of the right stuff then p*** off. Stop complaining about training companies and grow up, grow some balls and look for a job yourself. To those who go to schools like Oxford and get the best jobs (I.E. KLM or BA etc) then well done. To those of you who go to schools like Oxford and get good jobs (like ALMOST any other airline that exists) well done.
To those of you who complain that Oxford haven't found you a job; take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you are actually what airlines are after. If you were determined enough you wouldn't be on Pprune but instead you would be in airlines offices banging on doors and phoning Chief Pilots. Rant over.
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Roll Over,
I don't think Ryanair care if you have a degree or not, so I wouldn't add that in to the cost figures.
Callsign Kilo,
A minor point, but nobody borrows £100K for flight training. They might spend that much, but a sizable chunk has to be their own cash. Not even Northern Rock would loan £100K for such an endeavour before their downfall!
I don't think Ryanair care if you have a degree or not, so I wouldn't add that in to the cost figures.
Callsign Kilo,
A minor point, but nobody borrows £100K for flight training. They might spend that much, but a sizable chunk has to be their own cash. Not even Northern Rock would loan £100K for such an endeavour before their downfall!
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wheelie my boeing,
You say that as if anyone who trains modular is forever summoned to fly for Ryanair and no one better. Of course thats is utter tosh. Who said that your first job has to be the airline you have aspirations to fly for?
The whole point about people going to OAA who haven't found jobs being disappointed is that OAA market as if they do go out and find people jobs. They can't wait to say that their graduates ended up at airline X, despite the fact that it could have been through no intervention by themselves.
Also using pilots who end up at KLM as an example is irrelevant because those people had been selected by EPST, who then got them the job with KLM. Nothing to do with OAA - their only involvement was the training (which of course is of a very high standard, but that isn't the point). They had nothing to do with finding them the job. But yet they use these peoples' employment numbers in their marketing.
You say that as if anyone who trains modular is forever summoned to fly for Ryanair and no one better. Of course thats is utter tosh. Who said that your first job has to be the airline you have aspirations to fly for?
The whole point about people going to OAA who haven't found jobs being disappointed is that OAA market as if they do go out and find people jobs. They can't wait to say that their graduates ended up at airline X, despite the fact that it could have been through no intervention by themselves.
Also using pilots who end up at KLM as an example is irrelevant because those people had been selected by EPST, who then got them the job with KLM. Nothing to do with OAA - their only involvement was the training (which of course is of a very high standard, but that isn't the point). They had nothing to do with finding them the job. But yet they use these peoples' employment numbers in their marketing.
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And in which part did I state "forever summoned to fly for Ryanair" then?
I was simply stating that for those people in training who want to aim higher than Ryanair then Integrated may be the best choice. BA have maintained that they will NOT hire modular students (we are talking about SSPs here). Not only that but from my experience most of those that I know who went through integrated training and didn't get a job seemed to be the people who didn't do so well on the course and didn't maintain high marks in most subjects most if not all of the time. Of course I am not saying that failing an ATPL will then mean you don't stand a chance. However, having been through the training myself and also following training met other students from different flight schools, I now have come to realise that no matter what school you go to, the grass will ALWAYS be greener on the other side for most people. Cabair students often come out not happy with certain aspects at Cabair. Same with CTC, Oxford and FTE. It's funny that most of those who complain are those without the jobs. Perhaps they aren't getting the jobs for a personality trait which is showing in their interviews etc.
All I can say is most training schools are finding it increasingly harder this year to place graduates. CTC included. In fact, many ex CTC students that I know now believe that CTC is no longer a better choice than Oxford or Cabair etc. Yet Oxford graduates consistently get jobs. Oh, and the point about EPST getting the job for the student rather than Oxford... fact is they trained at Oxford and thats what it wil say on their CV's. (Plus BA take Oxford graduates and Oxford recommend most if not all of the integrated students to BA so that IS Oxfords doing).
I was simply stating that for those people in training who want to aim higher than Ryanair then Integrated may be the best choice. BA have maintained that they will NOT hire modular students (we are talking about SSPs here). Not only that but from my experience most of those that I know who went through integrated training and didn't get a job seemed to be the people who didn't do so well on the course and didn't maintain high marks in most subjects most if not all of the time. Of course I am not saying that failing an ATPL will then mean you don't stand a chance. However, having been through the training myself and also following training met other students from different flight schools, I now have come to realise that no matter what school you go to, the grass will ALWAYS be greener on the other side for most people. Cabair students often come out not happy with certain aspects at Cabair. Same with CTC, Oxford and FTE. It's funny that most of those who complain are those without the jobs. Perhaps they aren't getting the jobs for a personality trait which is showing in their interviews etc.
All I can say is most training schools are finding it increasingly harder this year to place graduates. CTC included. In fact, many ex CTC students that I know now believe that CTC is no longer a better choice than Oxford or Cabair etc. Yet Oxford graduates consistently get jobs. Oh, and the point about EPST getting the job for the student rather than Oxford... fact is they trained at Oxford and thats what it wil say on their CV's. (Plus BA take Oxford graduates and Oxford recommend most if not all of the integrated students to BA so that IS Oxfords doing).
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In the lastest brochure their is one guy who went to ba and if i remember rightly he failed the IFR exam first time but got 96% second time round and he still went to BA (got a first time pass on IR)
Anyhow you pay your money and take your choice, i''ve decided this is the route to take and i'm happy with my decision (i'll be in the RHS when most are still complaining) 
Anyhow you pay your money and take your choice, i''ve decided this is the route to take and i'm happy with my decision
(i'll be in the RHS when most are still complaining)
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Heli that can't be right then! BA won't take people unless they have first time passes on the IR
After around 10 days of self study it was time to complete the official jaa exams. My average was anout 88% with one fail (IFR comms at 74%)..
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update on my original post as Mike from OAA has updated his:
http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?t=4512
http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?t=4512
Amendments
Several people have enquired by PM or email with questions, so here is some additional info:
The number of students who commenced APPFO was identical in both 2006 and 2007 and was an increase of about 30 from 2005. Very few who started in 2007 have finished the course yet, so the 2007 and 2008 employment report mostly includes those who started in 2005 or 2006. The average monthly intake on the APPFO for those two years was 21.6 students.
Modular students are included in our reports, including 2 of the above and 25-30 during 2007 (sorry, I don't have the precise figure to hand here at home).
Not all APPFO students finish the course. The attrition due to failure is about 4-5% and we have refunded over £250,000 under the Skills Protection Plan since it started in April 2005 with AP248. An additional 2-3% drop out of their own volition and SPP does not entail a refund to those who quit. The attrition of APPFO essentially balances out within 3-5% for the inclusion of Modular graduates in the reports for statistical purposes.
It takes most students 6-12 months to find employment, with about 90% historically getting an FO position within 12 months of course completion.
A small portion of our graduates get their first job entirely on their own effort. The one who went to Afriqiyah Airways in May 2008 is an example. He is a Foreign National who was not eligible for UK employment and he was a Modular student, so he knew we would not be able to assist much with the employment search. His father is also an OAA graduate.
Several people have enquired by PM or email with questions, so here is some additional info:
The number of students who commenced APPFO was identical in both 2006 and 2007 and was an increase of about 30 from 2005. Very few who started in 2007 have finished the course yet, so the 2007 and 2008 employment report mostly includes those who started in 2005 or 2006. The average monthly intake on the APPFO for those two years was 21.6 students.
Modular students are included in our reports, including 2 of the above and 25-30 during 2007 (sorry, I don't have the precise figure to hand here at home).
Not all APPFO students finish the course. The attrition due to failure is about 4-5% and we have refunded over £250,000 under the Skills Protection Plan since it started in April 2005 with AP248. An additional 2-3% drop out of their own volition and SPP does not entail a refund to those who quit. The attrition of APPFO essentially balances out within 3-5% for the inclusion of Modular graduates in the reports for statistical purposes.
It takes most students 6-12 months to find employment, with about 90% historically getting an FO position within 12 months of course completion.
A small portion of our graduates get their first job entirely on their own effort. The one who went to Afriqiyah Airways in May 2008 is an example. He is a Foreign National who was not eligible for UK employment and he was a Modular student, so he knew we would not be able to assist much with the employment search. His father is also an OAA graduate.
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BerksFlyer,
It seems to me that it would be foolish of OAA if they didn't include EPST students in their employment report because everybody includes them in their calculations when they compare the number of students starting each month to the number of placements. If you don't take them out of the starting column, but you take them out of the jobs found column, you artificially deflate the OAA graduates' employment success rate. I doubt that all the Dutch go home for work anyway so surely OAA helps some of them find work.
At the end of the day, most wannabes desire any help their FTO can provide in putting them forward to airlines. I also suspect airline recruiters prefer to read a handful of CVs from students recommended by the FTO rather than pay for adverts and screen 5,000 CVs by hand when they only seek a small number of FOs per year. All of the UK's Integrated FTOs and most of the Modular ones seek to forge relationships with as many airlines as they can. OAA is not the only FTO that is good at this, but to say they aren't just because they didn't place every graduate that got a job or because many of their graduates choose to go to Ryanair (when anyone who attends a RYR open day has a shot of getting in) is somewhat disingenuous.
It seems to me that it would be foolish of OAA if they didn't include EPST students in their employment report because everybody includes them in their calculations when they compare the number of students starting each month to the number of placements. If you don't take them out of the starting column, but you take them out of the jobs found column, you artificially deflate the OAA graduates' employment success rate. I doubt that all the Dutch go home for work anyway so surely OAA helps some of them find work.
At the end of the day, most wannabes desire any help their FTO can provide in putting them forward to airlines. I also suspect airline recruiters prefer to read a handful of CVs from students recommended by the FTO rather than pay for adverts and screen 5,000 CVs by hand when they only seek a small number of FOs per year. All of the UK's Integrated FTOs and most of the Modular ones seek to forge relationships with as many airlines as they can. OAA is not the only FTO that is good at this, but to say they aren't just because they didn't place every graduate that got a job or because many of their graduates choose to go to Ryanair (when anyone who attends a RYR open day has a shot of getting in) is somewhat disingenuous.
Last edited by Adios; 7th Jun 2008 at 19:16.
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hi guys, being an "oat grad" i want to have some input!! for the record i have gone to ryanair however total cost is absolutely no-where near the £130k someone mentioned! you'd have to fail alot of IR's to accumulate that amount of debt!!
I enjoyed my time there and would make the same decision again to go there, but i really feel its down to personal choice and so no amount of slating various FTOs will determine which one is better...!
With regards to alot of us integrated guys going to RYR, well there isnt very much on the market right now (just take a look at the "wannabe" forum!) and to be honest if you can attain the money for the TR, i feel its well worth the move - but ill stop there - dont want to turn it into a RYR thread.
BA require 1st SERIES IR pass.
Getting guys jobs after training isnt Oxfords strong point but it depends on how much you try. if you sit back and just wait for emails to come in then no, you wont get much. However i got a job 2 weeks after finishing as did 10 other guys on my course (17 of us in total).
All in all your flight training is personal to you so make your own minds up before being swayed...!!
I enjoyed my time there and would make the same decision again to go there, but i really feel its down to personal choice and so no amount of slating various FTOs will determine which one is better...!
With regards to alot of us integrated guys going to RYR, well there isnt very much on the market right now (just take a look at the "wannabe" forum!) and to be honest if you can attain the money for the TR, i feel its well worth the move - but ill stop there - dont want to turn it into a RYR thread.
BA require 1st SERIES IR pass.
Getting guys jobs after training isnt Oxfords strong point but it depends on how much you try. if you sit back and just wait for emails to come in then no, you wont get much. However i got a job 2 weeks after finishing as did 10 other guys on my course (17 of us in total).
All in all your flight training is personal to you so make your own minds up before being swayed...!!